SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
The quotes you brought explicitly order to kill non-believers. In "desist" I don't think the Quran means "reject the conversion to Islam", but their present religion.
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
- 11,488
- 2
- 0
Read a few verses back and ahead, like brownzilla786 so kindly pointed out, you're taking verses completely out of context.
Scholarly interpretation of the Quran disagrees with you. If they desist in a. fighting against you or b. in persecution of you. If they desist, then God is forgiving, and God is merciful. Many of these verses also hold relevance in Muhammad, peace be upon him's, persecution in Makkah by his own tribesmen.
I don't sit here and claim to know the Torah because I haven't studied it. I know my book, do you know yours?
8:38 and 39 seems pretty obvious to me (from google):
"8:38 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. "
That seems pretty clear it has to be faith in Allah, as in ceasing unbelief of non-Allah. Also 25:52,
'Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)."
And here's the part where you absolutely have to believe in Islam, 61:9--
"It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it)."
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt) was known for his severe and cruel persecution of Christians and Jews. He implemented harsh restrictions (such as the humiliating "poll tax", after which paying to live/survive/not be killed, you had to wear a document around your neck which identified you as a dhimmi (Jew or Chrisitan) and enabled you to move from place to place, supposedly without persecution. In reality, it simply notified people that you were an outcast and so it made the persecution worse) on groups and ordered the destruction of the Church of the Nativity, which fuelled desire on the part of Western Christendom/Church to liberate the Holy Land from the hands of the Muslims.
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
Wrong. If you said the people are misrepresenting the Quran in circumstances then that would be a legitimate argument, but I fail to see how the Quran is teaching that.
Sura 9:5
Also, "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." I don't see what you're getting at. It says to kill those who don't convert.
If you read the verse right after that it states: [9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
Anything else?
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
- 11,488
- 2
- 0
:thumbsup:
Stick it to them. Even if I had studied the OT, there is no point in making quotes out of context. It just further perpetuates ignorance and a hard-wired bias to hate.
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
Wrong. If you said the people are misrepresenting the Quran in circumstances then that would be a legitimate argument, but I fail to see how the Quran is teaching that.
Sura 9:5
Also, "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." I don't see what you're getting at. It says to kill those who don't convert.
If you read the verse right after that it states: [9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
Anything else?
That's only for one person; if an entire nation doesn't want to convert to Islam, heh....good luck using that logic of yours with this verse on them. You can't "wait for the word from Allah" forever. And besides, I think I'll take the word of a PhD former Muslim over some random internet guy's mis-quoted quips any day.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 46,911
- 10,749
- 147
Your book? Ok.
I'd never confine myself to just one book. Hell, if I had to chose one, it'd be something like Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon or the play Waiting For Godot by Beckett or another play, Rosencrantz and Guilderstern Are Dead by Tom Stoppard, peace and blessings be upon his name.
The Old Testament is at least 4,000 or so years old, no wonder it's such a violently primitive dog and pony show.
And if I had to take just one book with me on the proverbial deserted island, I'd take something I hadn't read yet . . . because we never stop learning.
I do cotton to Sufis, though, mrSHEiK. They're among the least primitive "believers." It's no coincidence to me that my two favorite Islamic poets are Sufis, Hafiz and Rumi. Sufis be cool, man, but then the more mystical flavors of any of the main religions have the lightest and wisest touch, imho.
Infinity is serious business.
Myself, I'd shorten "there is only one God" to "there is only one", but that's just me; no matter what any of us believes, not one of us knows.
I'm cool with that.
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
- 11,488
- 2
- 0
Well, if I had to choose "MY book" it'd probably be Hop on Pop. I meant it in the religious sense, but whatever.
You can find a much more 'mystical' group of Muslims than Sufis, since most of them today don't really qualify as dervishes. I've heard some Sufis speak here in America, and it's usually simple, 'back to the roots' talk. I like 'em.
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
Wrong. If you said the people are misrepresenting the Quran in circumstances then that would be a legitimate argument, but I fail to see how the Quran is teaching that.
Sura 9:5
Also, "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." I don't see what you're getting at. It says to kill those who don't convert.
If you read the verse right after that it states: [9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
Anything else?
That's only for one person; if an entire nation doesn't want to convert to Islam, heh....good luck using that logic of yours with this verse on them. You can't "wait for the word from Allah" forever. And besides, I think I'll take the word of one person who agrees with me and deny everyone else including scholars over some random internet guy's mis-quoted quips any day.
Fixed
And if the entire nation does not want to convert to islam then
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
But if you want to only accept one person's opinion on it and close your mind to other evidence then just say so
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
- 0
- 0
This is an excellent example that surely even some of the most hard core Hamas terrorists could respect, if only we in the US along with Israel could end our ongoing denial of Palestine's right to exist.
You can't get more authoritative to a Muslim than straight out of the Qu'ran.
You're missing the context, there are other verses which are contradictory to that (which I have linked above, and which brown et al, much to their chagrin, have not satisfactorily addressed), which make it clear you must convert to Islam, only Islam, or die. I don't care about "temporary safety harbors" for a singular person, neither does Hamas, terrorists, etc. It's clear if they did then would not be so militant. They are following the Quran to the T, that is why they are militant.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
- 0
- 0
I've studied all the major religions over my years, as well as quite a few lesser known ones. My understanding of the context is fine.
You on the other hand are clearly an ignorance bigot, and I have no intention in indulging your hatreds any further.
Do I have to start posting some of the awful misrepresented quotes from Jewish texts which Nazis used to slander Jews? I really don't want any part in perpetuating any such bigotry, but might that shake you out of your delusions?
sigh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Jizya is a tax paid by non believers, let me highlight the important features of Jizya
From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[6] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and taxes levied upon Muslim citizens.
The Arabic term jizya appears in verse Qur'an 9:29
Clearly you are wrong.
Haha, so the US should pay a tax to them? To which Islamic nations should we pay a tax to? To which militant group? Hamas? Rofl.
If that comment was serious, you are easily on the verge of mental retardation. Please tell me that comment was a joke. PLEASE.
I suspect you just can't read and your slow so I'll copy and paste the first line of Wikipedia. Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: ??????; IPA: [??zjæh] Ottoman Turkish: cizye; both derived from Pahlavi and ultimately from Aramaic gaziyat [1]) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens
Now, notice the bold Islamic state part. Is the US an islamic state? Think about that for a minute...
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
You DO realize how absurd this logic is, don't you? Let's recapitulate:
God is an omniscient, omnipotent, immortal super-being. God knows everything that ever happened, everything that ever WILL happen, everything each one of us thinks every instant of our lives, everything that every one of us will do every instant of our lives.
So God needed to create Jesus, then have him sacrificed, in order to make us acceptable to God? WTF?
Like God couldn't just "think," "Mankind, with all his flaws, is acceptable to me." ?
Instead it's, "Mankind is really fvcked up. What to do, what to do. I know, I'll create this perfect person and then have him crucified. THAT will make mankind good enough."
Seriously, the degree to which one must suspend all rational processes to accept these religious stories is astounding.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
It's astounding to conclude that the central premise of Christianity - God created a perfect, human son, then sacrificed him in order expiate mankind's sins; and God requires belief in that story as THE necessary and sufficient condition for getting to a transcendent place called "heaven" - is false, based on even the most minimal rational analysis of the assumptions underlying that premise?
Explain why that point is astounding?
yea, and if you don't pay jizya what happens? oh that's right, you die. So how is that different? Just raise the jizya to 110% of your income and you can legally kill infidels because they can't pay the jizya.
All you can say is ifs and buts. Find a country that does that 110 % income bullshit you pulled out of your ass and we can have an argument, other then that your spewing garbage.
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
- 11,488
- 2
- 0
Non-Muslims were also exempt from zakat, or mandatory alms paid by Muslims. If someone refused to pay the jizya, he could be imprisoned, according to Abu Yusuf.
According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned not to be let out of custody until payment. It is not permissible to exempt one person, while obliging another to pay jizya, nor is jizya to be reduced.[48] Though it was an annual tax, non-Muslims were allowed to pay it in monthly installments.
Guess what happens if you don't pay taxes in the U.S? Jail. Try reading some time, the links were available.
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