Does it matter? The book is not the problem. The problem was never with the Bible, the Torah, or the Quran. It's the people. They're just fucking stupid.
It's full of that their god is only the god for the Jews, and that other people can be slaughtered without remorse. Killing innocent firstborn children in Egypt is what their god likes.
kylebisme
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Actually, it says the Israelites, consisting of twelve tribes, where chosen to receive the message of God. "Jews" being modern for one of the tribes of Israel, the Tribe of Judah.Originally posted by: dahunan
Reason I bring this up is because western media consistently demonizes Islam and Muslims... and the Quran..
Only bad propaganda I was ever told about Jewish people was that they feel they are superior to everyone else because they are "Gods Chosen People" and that when the rapture comes the Seven Tribes will get a free ticket out of here and leave the Gentiles behind or something like that
Torah says nothing about superiority or anything of the sort, but on the contrary says quite a bit about humility. Anyway, it is a long story, but I recommend reading it.
What Christians call the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible, give or take a couple of books depending on what Christian sect you ask. Torah is the Five Books of Moses.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Actually, it says the Israelites, consisting of twelve tribes, where chosen to receive the message of God. "Jews" being modern for one of the tribes of Israel, the Tribe of Judah. <-- umm actually no.....nice try...but most modern-day Jews are descended from the tribe of Judah. ...which is NOT why they are called Jews,,,Originally posted by: dahunan
Reason I bring this up is because western media consistently demonizes Islam and Muslims... and the Quran..
Only bad propaganda I was ever told about Jewish people was that they feel they are superior to everyone else because they are "Gods Chosen People" and that when the rapture comes the Seven Tribes will get a free ticket out of here and leave the Gentiles behind or something like that
Torah says nothing about superiority or anything of the sort, but on the contrary says quite a bit about humility. Anyway, it is a long story, but I recommend reading it.
What Christians call the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible, give or take a couple of books depending on what Christian sect you ask. Torah is the Five Books of Moses.
Well, I can tell you if you must know, however I suspect that since this is ATP&N your desire for an actual answer is dishonest. You probably want more quran/bible/new testament battles.
Most of the hardcore religious people here study the bible nearly all of their life and couldn't care less about politics of the outside world. The bible is mostly about enlightenment (yes, modern times, you CAN recognize the bad parts for what they. surprise!) and that is what they try to study. This is why jewish settlements around the world generally go well with the rest of the population until a local leader needs a scapegoat for whatever.
They are not to be confused with the extremists who constantly aggravate arabs and attack the IDF soldiers that protect them. IMO they are scum and should be shot, but that's out of my hands.
Also, do not try to use this against the current actions in Gaza. The leadership here is not religious and does not operate under that sort of guidance so right or wrong, the causes for the current conflict can be found elsewhere.
Most of the hardcore religious people here study the bible nearly all of their life and couldn't care less about politics of the outside world. The bible is mostly about enlightenment (yes, modern times, you CAN recognize the bad parts for what they. surprise!) and that is what they try to study. This is why jewish settlements around the world generally go well with the rest of the population until a local leader needs a scapegoat for whatever.
They are not to be confused with the extremists who constantly aggravate arabs and attack the IDF soldiers that protect them. IMO they are scum and should be shot, but that's out of my hands.
Also, do not try to use this against the current actions in Gaza. The leadership here is not religious and does not operate under that sort of guidance so right or wrong, the causes for the current conflict can be found elsewhere.
kylebisme
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It wasn't a try, it was a statement of fact. I am curious though, where do you think the name "Jews" is derived from?
I've read some of it. I've also seen some mistranslated and taken out of context to slander Jews, much like Islamic texts are often mistranslated and taken out of context to slander Muslims. Ignorance breeds hatred in all directions.
The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, which I have read.
The reason Jews don't catch any flack is that all the commands to destroy other nations/peoples were given directly to the Jews by God and were meant for execution at that time only. There are no commands that say "you [as in you specifically the person reading it, right now] must actively go and kill anyone and everyone that does not repent and convert" like there are in Sura 9 of the Quran.
The militant verses you will find (such as "if a man and woman are caught in the act committing adultery, stone them") were for use within the nation of Israel, not applicable to those outside. Their purpose was to show how God demands absolute perfection from us, and to show us how horrible sin is in God's eyes. Their purpose was to show us that there was no possible way that we could please God in our own actions. They made it clear that were we to be reconciled with God, God would have to do something about it because there was nothing that we could do, no sacrifice, and no level of effort, could provide the perfection on our behalf that God demands. This "God would have to do something" that I refer to is "God would have to provide a perfect sacrifice if we were to have anything to do with God"; the Old Testament/Torah in your case pointed the way to, and proved the need for, the promised sacrifice that God said he would eventually provide (this perfect sacrifice was Jesus, the man who lived perfectly).
See my previous post right above this one; you can start with Sura 9:5 if you're looking for a "guide to havoc", killing all who will not convert is a good start towards a guide to havoc yes? There are numerous other examples which I will be more than happy to provide if you would like but I'm too lazy and don't want to have to go get my book at the moment (and thus am not giving these examples now).
edit: decided to not be lazy, see my next post.
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
) was known for his severe and cruel persecution of Christians and Jews. He implemented harsh restrictions (such as the humiliating "poll tax", after which paying to live/survive/not be killed, you had to wear a document around your neck which identified you as a dhimmi (Jew or Chrisitan) and enabled you to move from place to place, supposedly without persecution. In reality, it simply notified people that you were an outcast and so it made the persecution worse) on groups and ordered the destruction of the Church of the Nativity, which fuelled desire on the part of Western Christendom/Church to liberate the Holy Land from the hands of the Muslims.I'm not misrepresenting facts, you just have the facts wrong. My explanation is based on modern hebrew scholarly study. It really is the celebration of killing hellenized jews. Alot of jews I know think that hanukkah needs to be forgotten entirely. It only gets so much attention because its' around the same time as christmas, the greatest holiday of all time (saturnalia)
kylebisme
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Yet the same holds true for the Surahas you refer to.
Furthermore, there is a small faction of Israeli settlers who see their colonization of Palestinian land a duty assigned to them by God, straight out Tanakh. Then there are the leaders who allow it, who generally don't hold such religious conviction, but like the idea for other reasons and even offer tax incentives to persuade the majority of settlers who would otherwise have no interest in this ongoing conquest of Palestinian land.
And then Christian settlers colonizing the Americans often used those same Biblical passages to justify their conquests under the guise that the Americans were the new Promised Land.
And yeah, some Muslims take Qu'ran verses like the ones you mention out of context too, as do people trying to discredit Islam. Please don't bother posting such nonsense though.
Again, I've read the Qu'ran, and have seen it often mistranslated and taken out of context to slander Muslims, just as I've seen many Jewish texts mistranslated and taken out of context to slander Jews. I don't care to see any more of any such bigotry, and I'd appreciate it if you could keep such ignorance to yourself.
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
As is Christianity. And don't give judaism a pass... it's filld with the oddest, most neurotic rules of any religion.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
First christianity was a cult of judaism. Second, christianity is also laden with contradictions. Everybody should be aware of the original battles between ARians and Catholics and then the later schisms, the gospel of judas and other "books" that are ignoed because they paint jeebus in less godly terms.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
Militarism? The jewish messiah is supposed to be a great military leader.
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
THE Berber/moors who conquered spain were independet from muhammads arab armies. How do you miss such an important fact?
Also, you defend the catholic church? The catholic church had reacted violently to supress former pagan rligions as well as non doctrinal christian beliefs. The catholic church had sanctioned forced conversion, including that of jews. As opposed to an independent moorish kingdom?
This is where you lose context. To be forced to pay a tax and identify yourself a an outcast several thousand years ago is relatively progressive. Christians and their pogroms flatly FORCED CONVERSION or death as a matter of right.
I understand that you're jewish. If you really believe that throughout history the christian world has been overall kinder than the muslims, you are flatly wrong.
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
As is Christianity. And don't give judaism a pass... it's filld with the oddest, most neurotic rules of any religion.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
First christianity was a cult of judaism. Second, christianity is also laden with contradictions. Everybody should be aware of the original battles between ARians and Catholics and then the later schisms, the gospel of judas and other "books" that are ignoed because they paint jeebus in less godly terms.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
Militarism? The jewish messiah is supposed to be a great military leader.
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
THE Berber/moors who conquered spain were independet from muhammads arab armies. How do you miss such an important fact?
Also, you defend the catholic church? The catholic church had reacted violently to supress former pagan rligions as well as non doctrinal christian beliefs. The catholic church had sanctioned forced conversion, including that of jews. As opposed to an independent moorish kingdom?
This is where you lose context. To be forced to pay a tax and identify yourself a an outcast several thousand years ago is relatively progressive. Christians and their pogroms flatly FORCED CONVERSION or death as a matter of right.
I understand that you're jewish. If you really believe that throughout history the christian world has been overall kinder than the muslims, you are flatly wrong.
Sigh. There is no reasoning with your type. BTW, I am not Jewish, I am a historian (if you can call that a religion lol). My interest is in correctly analyzing History. Yours seems otherwise.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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Again its convenient to say somebody has the facts wrong when your interpretation of the facts is skewered with nonesense!!
It had nothing to do with Jews killing as you conveniently try to say -- hellenized Jews!!
Several generations after Alexander the Great, Antiochus IV inherited control of the Greek empire, which included Israel at the time. Where Alexander had allowed cultures to practice their own religions and customs, Antiochus tried to Hellenize the Jews. He placed a Greek priest in the Holy Temple, who desecrated the altar by demanding that pigs be sacrificed upon it. Jews were oppressed, even massacred, but when pressured to abandon their heritage and beliefs, Mattathias the Hasmonean and his son Judah Maccabee chose to revolt. A battle ensued. The Jews were outnumbered by the Greek army, which used armored elephants in their attack, but the Jews won the battle and reclaimed the Holy Temple. The word "Hanukkah," which means dedication, refers to the rededication of the Holy Temple, at which time the menorah was lit.
If you actually knew your history you would not be in a position for me to have to teach you what you obviously do not know!!
As for your Jewish friends....what a cop out..lol.....
I am Jewish and there is NO dsesire for hanukkah to be forgotten at all!!
You try to be sensational by claiming that Jews were killing Jews when that just is not factual or even truthful!!
Shalom!
JEDI interesting, I heard a slightly different story-- Antiochus Epiphanes IV waltzed straight into the Holiest of Holies inside the Jewish Tabernacle and, himself, sacrificed a pig to Zeus. That's just what I remember from class-- but either way the point you make is the same. :thumbsup:
kylebisme
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Were did you get that from? It's been a while since I read the Books of Maccabees but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go quite that far.
Anyway, what Stoneburner is referring to is the historical consensus based on studding the other records of the time in comparison with Tanakh. Based on that research, it was apparently as civil war between orthodox Jews and those drifting towards Greek culture, fighting over control of the Temple.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Well, I have yet to hear of Jewish Taliban throwing acid on the faces of young girls who are going to school, which is what happens in Afghanistan, apparently. Also, the overwhelming majority of terrorist bombings have been committed by devout Muslims. The Islamic religion also has a reputation for women being treated like cattle and the majority of Muslim nations are religious dictatorships. Also, according to the Apostates of Islam website the Quran says that a man may beat his wife. Oh, did I mention that followers of Islam oppose free speech? When political cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper they rioted and threatened to kill people. When Salman Rushdie published his book he was also threatened with death.
There's a reason why most of the Muslim world lives in poverty and why the women are treated like cattle and why so many Muslim nations are religious dictatorships. In fact, if it hadn't been for the accident of oil being beneath the Arab lands--something they might have never been able to discover on their own nor any way to pump nor any uses for--they would still be living the way they had in the 7th Century.
In contrast, a great many, if not most, if not the overwhelming majority of Jewish people are secular (many being agnostic and atheist) and support the values of Western Civilization, which is one reason why many of the greatest scientists, doctors, and thinkers are Jewish. The Jewish people and their religion, as they practice it, pose no threat to Western Civilization but the same cannot be said for Islam which is still mired in 7th Century primitivism and barbarism.
That may be one core reasons why the media tends to look down on Islam, if it even does.
What can rational Muslims do if they don't like all of these facts? I suggest abandoning and renouncing the Islamic religion and becoming rational atheists. It might be necessary to continue to pretend that you're Muslim in order to keep from getting murdered by other Muslims, but in your heart and in your mind you can be rational.
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
Wrong. If you said the people are misrepresenting the Quran in circumstances then that would be a legitimate argument, but I fail to see how the Quran is teaching that.
Originally posted by: brownzilla786
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
No really the problem is with the Quran. Muhammed took parts of the Old Testament and rewrote them, changed some stuff around for the heck of it, etc. It's full of contradictions and commands to kill those that don't convert.
"The Quran seems to describe Christ in conflicting terms, some of which correspond to the unorthodox Christian teachings which were the subject of controversies in the early church; others confirm the biblical teaching. In certain places the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God (2:116), describing him as a mere man (3:59). Nevertheless, in other places Jesus is described in lofty, highly favoured terms, elevating him above all other prophets. Unlike other prophets, Jesus' prophetic ministry was validated in the Quran by a number of distinctives. First, miracles were ascribed to him (5:112-12; 3:46). Secondly, he was united with the Holy Spirit (2:86). Thirdly, he was called the Messiah (3:45). Fourthly, he was born of a virgin (3:47). Another important designation of Jesus is that of the 'Word", of which he was spoken of in John 1:1 in the New Testament. In Surah 3:45 we read 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him: his name will be Christ Jesus.' George Sale translated this verse more literally from the original Arabic: 'O Mary! God sendeth thee good tidings, that thou shalt bear the Word, proceeding from Himself; his name shall be Christ Jesus.' The 'Word, proceeding from Himself,' seems to correlate with John's affirmation of Christ's eternal existence, and to be a more accurate translation of the Arabic text." (Bassam M. Chadid wrote this in one of his books on Islam).
Islam is basically a cult of Christianity. It is interesting that Muhammed appelaed to previous revelation (such as the Torah you speak of, Psalms, and he even refers to the Injil ("Gospels"-- these would be Matthew Mark Luke and John from the New Testament)), yet he ignores or rejects the parts of these that are incompatible with the accounts found in the Quran.
As far as Militantism goes, the word "dawah" means in an Islamic context, 'to propagate the faith by calling people to embrace Islam'. From the beginning of the Quran, dawah is associated with military conquest through the concept of "jihad" (8:74,75; 9:44), the justification for which is laid down down in the prescriptions of the Quran (2:69; 2:190; 2:217; 2:256; 3:103; 8:39; 8:61-62; 25:52; and 61:9).
For those who will undoubtedly bring up the Catholic Church's crusades, I would encourage them to look at the relationship between the Church and Muhammed's army that he raised. His conquests moved all the way into Spain before being defeated in France in 732AD at the Battle of Tours (they were hoping to control southern Europe and Constantinople, which they had failed to achieve in their earlier invasion from the east). The Catholic church felt very threatened by this new militant religion and their treatment of Christians and Jews. Al-Hakim (996-1021), the sixth Fatimid caliph at Cairo (as in Cairo, Egypt
? 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors
? 2:191. And Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you there then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers
? 2:192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
? 2:193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
Wrong. If you said the people are misrepresenting the Quran in circumstances then that would be a legitimate argument, but I fail to see how the Quran is teaching that.
Sura 9:5
Also, "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." I don't see what you're getting at. It says to kill those who don't convert.
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