Do AMD cpus at least give a smoother desktop experience w/more cores?

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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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They are the same. Its you adding the time into it. Performance/watt is irrelevant of time.

You are trying to create a performance/time case to excuse your numbers.

If anything it shows that CPU wise, the 3225 is MUCH BETTER than your A8 7600 because the power budget is burdened by the rest of the system for much longer time. And that was your sales pitch after all in your biased benching.

Let me remind you of your statement:

Compare the performance and perf/watt of 22nm FF Core i3 3225 vs 28nm planar 55W A8-7600

The AMD A8-7600 is not only faster, it also has higher perf/watt with a node disadvantage. This is simple amazing, if Intel would do that everybody would talk about the second coming of Jesus.

We would talk about it if it was true. But its not.

A few of your mistakes:
Talking about CPU power and compare systems.
Lack of understanding what performance/watt is.
Basing it all on a single cherry picked benchmark.
10W incremental power measurement. There could be 8W difference for the sake of argument between the 2. 76 vs 84.

And isn't this the board you use for the 3225?
power-1.png


Would explain why Haswell i3 is so much lower.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I think it depends on what you are doing. Gaming efficiency is different than measuring efficiency for a job that has a start and end that CPU use can be measured and timed based on when the job completes.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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They are the same. Its you adding the time into it. Performance/watt is irrelevant of time.

You are trying to create a performance/time case to excuse your numbers.

If anything it shows that CPU wise, the 3225 is MUCH BETTER than your A8 7600 because the power budget is burdened by the rest of the system for much longer time. And that was your sales pitch after all in your biased benching.

You need to attend to Physics 101, until then i wouldn't even take any commend you do on that subject seriously.

insulting other members is not allowed
Markfw900
 
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jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
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The above graph display two different things,

On the left is the performance in fps (Frames per second - Higher is better) and on the right we have the energy consumption in Wh (less is better) to finish the benchmark.

By using those two we can calculate the efficiency (perf/watt) or perf/Wh

That just shows the Core i3 with better performance/joule: higher fps, lowest power usage. Do you have total time of completion for 1st+2nd pass?
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
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I think it depends on what you are doing. Gaming efficiency is different than measuring efficiency for a job that has a start and end that CPU use can be measured and timed based on when the job completes.

Gaming efficiency is the same, take the following graph, you have average fps (over 60 minites of gaming) and energy used on that time. ;)

dgyno.jpg
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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That just shows the Core i3 with better performance/joule: higher fps, lowest power usage. Do you have total time of completion for 1st+2nd pass?

It was posted with the other graph, but here it is again. The Core i3 3225 is the slowest of them all.

mmv1n4.jpg
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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You need to attend to Physics 101, until then i wouldn't even take any commend you do on that subject seriously.

You would think its otherwise in relation to how many pointed out your mistake so far.

You tried to setup a best case scenario for the A8 7600, using a bloated power hungry Z77 board to penalize the 3225. Using different memory speed. And all you came up to was same same. But in your haste to post AMD victory on all fronts you forgot what the meaning of your numbers was. And now we are into the excuse game.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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Gaming efficiency is the same, take the following graph, you have average fps (over 60 minites of gaming) and energy used on that time. ;)

It gets awfully muddy with that GPU in it doesn't it. Because yet again you use system consumption to determine CPU. In this case a GPU with more or less workload that may change its power profile quite a bit.
 
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Aug 11, 2008
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@ Aten-Ra: Watt-hours is a unit of energy(if you dont believe me, look it up). Your chart shows the 3220 and A8 using the same amount of energy (watthours) to complete the task. Simple. The efficiency is the same. Both processors use the same amount of energy to complete the task. Either that or your graph is incorrectly labelled or using the term watt-hours incorrectly. Perhaps what you meant is watts per hour. If that is the case, they yes, equal watts per hour, but the i3 taking longer would make the A8 more efficient. In any case, the difference is small, and you have to compare a current generation AMD processor to a 3 generation old intel in a benchmark highly favoring AMD to "prove" they are equal.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
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Well, if you want to talk about a variety of tasks, here is the full set of benchmarks for an i3 vs the A8-7600 at 65w. anand bench.

I also agree with Yuriman, you can pick some esoteric definition if you like, but in a general scientific sense, "efficiency" in regards to power would be the area under the curve of power consumption vs time to complete the task. How fast the task is finished is another issue. But in any case, it you want to look at performance, the benches I listed show that a modern Haswell i3 slaughters the A8-7600 in all but a few cpu benchmarks. And that is with the A8 at 65 watts, not the 45 watts you picked in your example to make the efficiency look better.

You are absolutely 100% correct. Efficiency is measured by the area under the graph.

But then look at my original post, where I said than anyone who uses AMD and efficient in the same sentence can't be taken seriously. Then the usual suspects post a bunch of carp that can't be taken seriously. The ADF has proven my point. :eek:
 
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jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
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It was posted with the other graph, but here it is again. The Core i3 3225 is the slowest of them all.

mmv1n4.jpg

Again, that just shows the Haswell i3 with the best performance/joule. It uses a total of 216000 joules in 3660 seconds. That's 59 joules/s. A10-7850k (95W) finishes in 3381 seconds using 360000 joules. That's 106 joules/s.

Remember, Watt=joule/second. These numbers match prettt well with the CPU watt numbers. Ultimately, the A10-7850k is using more energy in slightly less time. The Haswell i3 is using significantly less energy in only slightly more time, ergo it has better performance/joule and performance/watt.
 
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2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
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You need to attend to Physics 101, until then i wouldn't even take any commend you do on that subject seriously.

Apparently you can only take yourself seriously at this point, since it seems everyone is telling you the same thing now. And lets be honest, this isn't the first time you've tried to manipulate the numbers. In fact, it's pretty much standard operating practice on your part anytime a thread like this is created.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
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Ehm lets do it like in school,

Car A Ferrari, needs 10 seconds to run from A to B and it uses 1 Gallon of petrol

Car B Toyota, needs 12 seconds to run from A to B and it uses 1 Gallon of Petrol

Which has higher efficiency ???



Edit: Even easier to understand

Efficiency = Performance / Watt

CPU A produces 100 Frames per second by using 60 Watt

CPU B produces 140 Frames per second by using 60 Watt

Calculate the efficiency of both CPUs.

In case 1, both the Ferrari and the Toyota have the same efficiency. Both do the same work (travel the same distance) using the same amount of gasoline. Congrats to Ferrari for making a car that can match the efficiency of the Toyota, while doing it faster. If they detuned their engine to have the same acceleration, it would probably be more efficient than Toyota's.

In case 2, CPU B is clearly the more efficient. It's doing more work (more frames per second) by using the same amount of energy.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but you have a misunderstanding of some sort.

~

So, I'll ask again, is Kaveri equally efficient, but faster, or is it more efficient? Your chart says one thing, but your words say another.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, or if I've communicated poorly. I may have undergraduate degrees and physics and geochemistry, but that doesn't make me infallible, and it sure as heck doesn't make me good at communicating what I know.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
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@ Aten-Ra: Watt-hours is a unit of energy(if you dont believe me, look it up). Your chart shows the 3220 and A8 using the same amount of energy (watthours) to complete the task. Simple. The efficiency is the same. Both processors use the same amount of energy to complete the task. Either that or your graph is incorrectly labelled or using the term watt-hours incorrectly. Perhaps what you meant is watts per hour. If that is the case, they yes, equal watts per hour, but the i3 taking longer would make the A8 more efficient. In any case, the difference is small, and you have to compare a current generation AMD processor to a 3 generation old intel in a benchmark highly favoring AMD to "prove" they are equal.

I don’t believe I have said that Watt hours is not Energy, in fact my graph clearly says “System energy consumption : Watthours to finish the benchmark”

But what is wrong with your analysis is that you don’t count the performance, which in that case is TIME and specifically LESS TIME = higher performance. May both CPUs use the same amount of Energy to finish the same job/task but one is doing more work (Faster) than the other and so the faster (LESS TIME) using the same amount of energy has the higher efficiency.


In case 1, both the Ferrari and the Toyota have the same efficiency. Both do the same work (travel the same distance) using the same amount of gasoline. Congrats to Ferrari for making a car that can match the efficiency of the Toyota, while doing it faster. If they detuned their engine to have the same acceleration, it would probably be more efficient than Toyota's.

In case 2, CPU B is clearly the more efficient. It's doing more work (more frames per second) by using the same amount of energy.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but you have a misunderstanding of some sort.

~

So, I'll ask again, is Kaveri equally efficient, but faster, or is it more efficient? Your chart says one thing, but your words say another.

OK I have established why you and many others confuse things, its because of TIME.

LESS TIME = Higher Performance

So, Ferrari running the same distance at 2 Secs FASTER than the TOYOTA by consuming the same 1 Gallon of Petrol is the more Efficient of the two CARs.

The more efficient is the one that does MORE work (More fps OR less time) by using the same amount of energy.

In the case of the CARs, the Ferrari runs the same distance FASTER (2 secs LESS TIME) by consuming the same amount of petrol.

In the case of the x264 benchmark, the A8-7600 is doing more work (LESS TIME to finish the same job) by consuming the same amount of energy.

DON’T confuse the same Job/task (x264 benchmark) with the performance of each CPU. And Watthours IS NOT efficiency.

Efficiency = Performance (Time – Less time = higher performance) / Watt (or energy Wh)
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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Again, that just shows the Haswell i3 with the best performance/joule. It uses a total of 216000 joules in 3660 seconds. That's 59 joules/s. A10-7850k (95W) finishes in 3381 seconds using 360000 joules. That's 106 joules/s.

Remember, Watt=joule/second. These numbers match prettt well with the CPU watt numbers. Ultimately, the A10-7850k is using more energy in slightly less time. The Haswell i3 is using significantly less energy in only slightly more time, ergo it has better performance/joule and performance/watt.

We are talking about the A8-7600 at 55W TDP vs Core i3 3225 which is 55W TDP as well.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
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OK I have established why you and many others confuse things, its because of TIME.

LESS TIME = Higher Performance

So, Ferrari running the same distance at 2 Secs FASTER than the TOYOTA by consuming the same 1 Gallon of Petrol is the more Efficient of the two CARs.

The more efficient is the one that does MORE work (More fps OR less time) by using the same amount of energy.

In the case of the CARs, the Ferrari runs the same distance FASTER (2 secs LESS TIME) by consuming the same amount of petrol.

In the case of the x264 benchmark, the A8-7600 is doing more work (LESS TIME to finish the same job) by consuming the same amount of energy.

DON’T confuse the same Job/task (x264 benchmark) with the performance of each CPU. And Watthours IS NOT efficiency.

Efficiency = Performance (Time – Less time = higher performance) / Watt (or energy Wh)

Again, you seem confused.

So by your calculation, the Ferrari is what, 17% more efficient, because its rate of acceleration is 1-(10/12)*100 better, while covering the same distance and using the same fuel. What happens if the fuel consumption goes up by 20%? The Ferrari is now faster, but uses more fuel to cover the same distance, while covering the same distance. Does that make it equally efficient, despite using more fuel to cover the same distance, just because it's faster? (Hint: Your problem here is that you are using three variables)

Watts and watt hours are not interchangeable.

Let's go back to this chart again, and analyze your numbers:

juii5k.jpg


I'm going to compare the A8 7600 and the i3 3225 using x264 second pass, in which the A8 has higher throughput/FPS.

A8 7600: 7.52 Frames / second
Total energy used: 80 watts * hours

i3 3225: 6.63 Frames / second
Total energy used: 80 watts * hours

Let's break down the A8's power consumption:

7.52 frames / 1 second = 80 watts * 1 hour / 3600 seconds (converting from watt hours into watt seconds)
This simplifies into:
7.52 frames / 1 second = 0.022 watts / 1 second
Let's rearrange this to get joules, a unit of energy, and not of energy rate:
7.52 frames = 0.022 watts * 1 second / 1 second
And then,
7.52 frames = 0.0222 joules / 1 second
1 frame = 0.0030 joules / 1 second

But wait, that doesn't make any sense! You can't have a single frame equaling a rate of energy. What went wrong?

The key piece of information here is that in order to compare watt-hours to frames, you need to have a fixed number of frames generated, not a frame rate. You can't compare a rate (frames per second) to a non-time dependent unit of energy (watt-hours).

So, let's say for the sake of argument that both systems needed to render 2,000,000 frames - I assume you encoded the same clip with both CPUs. :sneaky:

The A8 used 80 watts*hours to render our hypothetical 2,000,000 frames. 80 watt hours is 288,000 joules, so some basic math shows us that the A8 would have used ~7 joules (2,000,000 / 288,000) to render each frame. It rendered these frames at 7.52 frames per second. 7 joules * 7.52 frames per second = 26.32 joules / 1 second, or 52.64 watts. (I chose 2 million as our frame number because that gives us a realistic wattage).

The i3 also used 80 watts*hours to render our hypothetical 2,000,000 frames, meaning it also used 7 joules to render each frame. However, it only rendered at 6.63 frames per second, and 6.63fps * 7 joules = 46.31 watts.

~

Does this mean the i3 is using less power? Yes, per unit time, but it took longer to do the same task, so it used the same amount of energy.

So, I'll ask again, what exactly are you comparing here? Are you asserting that the A8, rendering at a higher rate but using the same amount of energy to render each frame, is more efficient, because it finished first? Despite pulling more watts?

I'd say the convention here is to say that both CPUs are equally efficient (the A8 and i3 both need the same amount of energy to render each frame), but the A8 is faster, which has absolutely nothing to do with how efficiently it converts electrical energy into useful work.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
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Out of curiosity, how many frames was the clip you encoded on both CPUs? Was my ballpark of 2 million close?
 
Aug 11, 2008
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I don’t believe I have said that Watt hours is not Energy, in fact my graph clearly says “System energy consumption : Watthours to finish the benchmark”

But what is wrong with your analysis is that you don’t count the performance, which in that case is TIME and specifically LESS TIME = higher performance. May both CPUs use the same amount of Energy to finish the same job/task but one is doing more work (Faster) than the other and so the faster (LESS TIME) using the same amount of energy has the higher efficiency.




OK I have established why you and many others confuse things, its because of TIME.

LESS TIME = Higher Performance

So, Ferrari running the same distance at 2 Secs FASTER than the TOYOTA by consuming the same 1 Gallon of Petrol is the more Efficient of the two CARs.

The more efficient is the one that does MORE work (More fps OR less time) by using the same amount of energy.

In the case of the CARs, the Ferrari runs the same distance FASTER (2 secs LESS TIME) by consuming the same amount of petrol.

In the case of the x264 benchmark, the A8-7600 is doing more work (LESS TIME to finish the same job) by consuming the same amount of energy.

DON’T confuse the same Job/task (x264 benchmark) with the performance of each CPU. And Watthours IS NOT efficiency.

Efficiency = Performance (Time – Less time = higher performance) / Watt (or energy Wh)


We are actually just quibbling about semantics. Your chart shows units of energy to complete the task. Accepting your data for a 3 generation old processor for the sake of argument, the energy efficiency, or performance per watt, which is what one usually thinks of as "efficiency" in regards to cpus is equal. If one includes time, they yes, the A8 is slightly more efficient. However, this seems to me to be confounding two variables. For instance then, which is more "efficient", the overclocked A10 which is faster, or the A8 which uses less energy?

Edit: I am basing the time on the third graph, total time to complete the benchmark.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
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Does this mean the i3 is using less power? Yes, per unit time, but it took longer to do the same task, so it used the same amount of energy.

You just answered the question of which one is more efficient, the A8-7600 used the same amount of energy to do the same job at a faster time. That makes it more efficient. ;)
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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You just answered the question of which one is more efficient, the A8-7600 used the same amount of energy to do the same job at a faster time. That makes it more efficient. ;)


I would say they're of equal efficiency when talking overall power use in that case, but the A8 has the benefit of higher overall performance at the same efficiency, making it more time-efficient too.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,362
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We are actually just quibbling about semantics. Your chart shows units of energy to complete the task. Accepting your data for a 3 generation old processor for the sake of argument, the energy efficiency, or performance per watt, which is what one usually thinks of as "efficiency" in regards to cpus is equal. If one includes time, they yes, the A8 is slightly more efficient. However, this seems to me to be confounding two variables. For instance then, which is more "efficient", the overclocked A10 which is faster, or the A8 which uses less energy?

Edit: I am basing the time on the third graph, total time to complete the benchmark.

How is performance per watt equal when one CPU is faster than the other ??

Just use pass 2 results from my graph in order to simplify it.

A8-7600 performance = 8,12fps
A8-7600 energy consumption = 80 Wh

A8-7600 Efficiency = Performance / Energy consumption = 8,12/80 = 0.1015

Core i3 3225 performance = 6,63fps
A8-7600 energy consumption = 80 Wh

Core i3 3225 Efficiency = Performance / Energy consumption = 6,63/80 = 0.0828

A8-7600 Efficiency is higher than the Core i3 3225.

Wh = Energy consumed to finish the job/task.

Wh by it self IS NOT Efficiency.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
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5906 frames x 4 times in pass 1
5906 frames x 4 times in pass 2

I must've done something weird with my numbers, which I'll try to sort out, but even if the number of frames isn't correct, I think I've successfully illustrated a point - that you can't compare a rate of work and the total power consumption of completing a task, if you're going to use the generally accepted definition of "efficiency".

If you're asserting that the i3 and the A8 both used the same amount of electricity to render the same number of frames, but did their respective tasks in a different amount of time, the correct interpretation of this is that the A8 and i3 are equally efficient, but the A8 is faster. The A8 has higher power consumption at the wall, but needs to spend less time drawing that power.

Faster is faster, and more efficient is more efficient. Something can be faster and less efficient, or faster and more efficient, or any other combination.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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Why not an i3-3245, which is 100mhz faster for the same TDP? It must be more efficient than the 3225...right?