Divide and Conquer

[randomrogue]

Been trying to figure out a way to bring this up. I'm tempted to leave it only with respect to politics but I think the issue is far deeper and becomes tied quickly into economics. Let me start with a story about some family friends and their SO's visiting from the states these last 2 weeks. One of the older ladies in particular was a real treat.

First we had a gay couple over for dinner along with a bunch of other friends as a kind of welcome party.

Her: "Tonight is going to be real tough for me"

Me: "Why, I'll speak English and so will others. You'll be fine."

Her: "That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about them"

I left the room disgusted that people still think like this.

There was lots of "They need more religion in their lives" or "If they had religion in their lives they wouldn't have this problem". This lady in particular only had friends from church and this was her world view.

During a discussion about why I left the USA to live in Europe I simply responded "Because I'm European" so as to not get into a long convoluted conversation that I wasn't interested in having. I was immediately met with "America is going to hell because of the black man". I tried to avoid this obviously racist comment with "I love my country but want to live in Europe now". She kept going on about the "black man" as if I was supposed to understand that this was the problem. I played dumb to call her out and said "I don't know what you're talking about". "Oh you know. That black man in the white house".

This devolved quickly into a comment "You don't want to hear this (since I had blown off all her religious comments) but I firmly believe that Obama is the anti-christ". Now I'm not familiar with what the Anti Christ really is to religious people (or anyone for that matter) but I calmly said "What evidence do you have to support that Obama is the anti-Christ?". She then went into a tirade about how Obama wastes money and has too many limousines and people working for him in the white house and this is the reason that the economy is in the dumps. At that point I wasn't really sure how to respond but I gently pointed out that all Presidents have staff and motorcades and so do all other world dignitaries. Furthermore I pointed out that Congress is in charge of paying our bills so she should look at the Legislative branch a bit closer before going on about the Executive branch. I was firmly met with a ridiculous comment about how she worked for the Federal government for 15 years. She did and she made something like $5 an hour answering phones somewhere which I don't really think qualifies her to make such comments.

Now this whole fiasco was very embarrassing and I got a nice apology about it yesterday but it's not the first time I've seen things like this. I know there's a religious slant here but let me move on to the financial one.

I'm going to assume that a lot of the crazy things I hear are talking points on talk radio. When I hear something about money wasted on a limousine I can pretty much guess that they didn't come up with this on their own. I have casually mentioned over and over again the the real issues are not these small dollar amounts but bigger things such as Medicare/Medicaid, Education, Military Spending, Social Security, Tort Reform, etc. These issues generally get blown off though. I was recently met with a "Nobody should go to college since Americans are already passing up on hundreds of thousands of jobs". Now I had no idea what she was talking about but apparently she felt that nobody is too good for a job and someone who used to make $100,000 a year should not hold out for a job when there's a perfectly reasonable $8/hr job out there waiting for them. It's really tough for me to swallow this kind of thinking so I generally respond with something about us needing to create more high end jobs instead of catering to the lowest common denominator. Now in this particular case I was met with a rant about the audacity of cities around the country being forced to have $10/hr minimum wage as if that's some kind of crime. When I point out that our minimum wages, even at $10/hr, are barely livable wages. You might be able to get by in the Midwest but it would be by the skin of your teeth. It's not something we should aspire to. The moment you start taking your experienced, educated, and skilled workers and having them "pick strawberries" as she suggested is the moment you're in real trouble.

Been met all too often with "I don't read the news. If there's something I need to know then someone will tell me. I don't want to hear about all these murders and bad news everyday." This one really scares me. These people, and some of them are my friends, are downright ignorant. Scary ignorant. They're pretty much getting all their information from facebook updates and talk radio and this is making them very uninformed.

Basically, I feel like we have a system in place that is currently dividing and conquering by following a simple formula:

All news outlets should report doomsday material and shock news rather than objectively discuss current events. This will make people less likely to read the news and if they do they won't get any useful information. Rather than discuss big relevant issues we get diverted with stories about shootings or Benghazi. Why discuss our failing education system when we can discuss 4 deaths in Libya? Rather than discuss hard issues we get talking points about limousines and use derogatory terms to describe people. Think about how often you hear "Progressive, Liberal, or Right Wing". It's very important that we dehumanize who we're talking to or about.

What are we left with? We're left with incredibly uninformed people who are getting bad information from talk radio, church, and facebook and meanwhile the middle class erodes, the rich get richer, we have dynasties of politicians in office, fewer people vote, and the real problems never get solved.

Think about it if you were rich and had power. What possible benefit would it be for you to have tort reform, improve social security, reduce military spending, increase literacy rates, bring people out of poverty, strengthen the middle class, etc? None. In fact you want these things to fail since you want cheaper labor and more money in your own pocket. If you don't have to give people benefits, higher salaries, and can simply sue people out of existence you're in great shape.

 

[Moonbeam]

randomrogue: Think about it if you were rich and had power. What possible benefit would it be for you to have tort reform, improve social security, reduce military spending, increase literacy rates, bring people out of poverty, strengthen the middle class, etc? None.

M: I don't understand this. I am rich beyond measure and I want those things for other people.

r: In fact you want these things to fail since you want cheaper labor and more money in your own pocket. If you don't have to give people benefits, higher salaries, and can simply sue people out of existence you're in great shape.

M: But think of how poor you'd have to be to think like that.

 

[cwjerome]

I couldn't deal with "friends" like that... nope.

The media situation is a factor. Before when there were few outlets, the information was quite moderate and spread to a very large base. This had certain affects... a few of which were actually positive. Now we have extremely un-moderate news directed at narrow bases. This has had a lot of affects, some of which are pretty bad.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yep, that's pretty much it. Nowadays people just shop for confirmation of their views. It comforts them to listen to other people who agree with them. And it reinforces and hardens their views.

Yikes at your story. I would have had a difficult time restraining myself.

 

[Craig234]

There's not much to add except that it's a useful story for people not familiar with that people like that exist.

I've described it similarly to your post, our democracy failing at its goals, money that goes to a propaganda system keeping many people uninformed.

She is on the worse side of this, but it affects a lot of people. Add to your list that they don't really need people given higher education that helps them get past this.

And note that we went from generally free higher public education to no free higher education today (Governer Ronald Reagan stopped the last of it).

Uninformed people can make very, very loyal pollitical supporters. If someone tries to support policies good for them, it's a commy pinko limousine liberal career politician.

They do tend to keep friends who agree with them and reinforce these things.

It's often hard for people who don't hold those views to appreciate that there is a good segment of people like that.

But consider this quote from a Republican on the Congressional Science Committee:

All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, the Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell,” U.S Rep. Paul Broun said in an address last month at a banquet organized by Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell, Georgia. “And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”...

“I don’t believe that the Earth’s but about 9,000 years old,” Broun said in the speech, which Liberty Baptist Church posted on its website via YouTube. “I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says."...

In his speech to the church group, Broun called the Bible the “the manufacturer’s handbook. … It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society.”

“That’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that,” he said.

A spokeswoman for the congressman, Meredith Griffanti, said that Broun was not available for comment on Wednesday and that the video showed him “speaking off the record to a large church group about his personal beliefs regarding religious issues.”

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...ng-lies-from-the-pit-of-hell/comment-page-22/

There's a reason the phrase 'American Taliban' has been used.

The same audience gets told about our need to plan for violent revolution against the sort of tyranny we have now under Obama, and many accept it.

It's interesting to see the Washington staff minimize the issue, 'personal views about religion' - why, that's none of our business - versus all his votes determined by it.

We have had members say they are voting against any climate change bills because of the bible's instructions as they understand them.

 

[randomrogue]

Oh yeah I forgot the rant about Obama being a socialist communist. That was a hoot. I told her the 1950's were over but it went over her head and that's when she went into the Anti-Christ rant.

This lady and her husband's combined social security income was $2200 a month. She wasn't very consistent but I got the impression that any money spent by the government was bad but the government was also bad for making her live on so little money. Apparently those 15 years working for the Federal Government resulted in no money being contributed to Social Security so she was blaming the government for that as well.

Having citizens this ignorant is a real problem.

 

[Craig234]

Can you believe a fourth of the American people either think or aren't sure about Obama is the anti-Christ? How can they have reasonable opinions on any issue?

But if you think that's a problem, you're the enemy, the people trying to control their lives and destroy the country.

What this really shows in my opinion is simply the power of the marketing machine out to generate dissent in order to get political power for economic policies that benefit them.

Oh, the people won't support our disastrous policies that make us rich and destroy the world? Well, we'll just have to buy their opinions then. Fund the think tanks and media.

It just so happened that a big part of this agenda fit into Rupert Murdoch's business model and Roger Ailes' ideological desires. Murdoch couldn't sell Fox as a competitive news outlet better than others- the first attempt failed - but he COULD make it work by selling it as the only outlet who can trust because all the rest of the media are liberal liars. People would fall for that line and embrace Fox as the only source they can trust.

 

[Harabec]

I think modern "news" sites and TV (It is the same story in Israel...) have succumbed to the Facebook lifestyle. Facts aren't the issue, reporting OMGNAOW! about whatever crap some idiot drooled out of his mouth before anyone else does is the main thing.

The facts can come later, in an updated article, in some hidden sub-section of the site.
Just to show you the absurdity...our most popular news site, ynet.co.il, contains among its "current news" list a link to a stupid IDF reality show. Yes, up there along with the news about how we're #1 in poverty among the members of the OECD.
The Dumb&Ignorant disease is growing because it makes people heaps of money.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I'm going to assume that a lot of the crazy things I hear are talking points on talk radio.

Some of it does, in general terms. But not the really crazy stuff -- the racist stuff, the stuff about anti-Christs and so forth, that is not typical talk radio fodder. They are getting that from other sources, the latter almost certainly from religious sources.

I admire your constitution, but I don't really understand why you put up with people like that. I would only do so if they were extremely important to me in some other way (e.g. a grandparent). If not, I would tell them I was not comfortable with those sorts of discussions and ask them to refrain from them, and if they refused, I would simply not have them in my home.

 

[randomrogue]

Some of it does, in general terms. But not the really crazy stuff -- the racist stuff, the stuff about anti-Christs and so forth, that is not typical talk radio fodder. They are getting that from other sources, the latter almost certainly from religious sources.

I admire your constitution, but I don't really understand why you put up with people like that. I would only do so if they were extremely important to me in some other way (e.g. a grandparent). If not, I would tell them I was not comfortable with those sorts of discussions and ask them to refrain from them, and if they refused, I would simply not have them in my home.

Party was not in my home. I would have asked her to leave my home the moment that first bigoted slur came out of her mouth. I'll never have to see her again so I was really just keeping my cool and being polite out of respect for a good friend of mine.

I did however call her on all of it. I suppose that's another thing to bring up though. There seems to be a lot of fingers in ears. It's my side vs your side, thus all the labels, and nobody seems to be open to suggestion, constructive criticism, or new ideas. There's nothing I could say that's wiser than the church or talk radio.

The people close to me do not say the bigoted things. However the crazy liberal, right winger, too much money is being spent, stuff is regularly spewed. Us versus them. It might be more apparent to me since I'm overseas so I don't have to have these conversations on a regular basis but anytime I'm either home visiting or someone is here visiting it comes up regularly.

I started a thread a while back about new sources and this is because people of all classes are currently getting their news from very limited sources and it's skewing their world view significantly. Those that don't read the news at all though are becoming more common and it's risking ruining one of my friendships since I honestly have a real hard being around people who literally would rather stick their head in the sand than face reality.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Party was not in my home. I would have asked her to leave my home the moment that first bigoted slur came out of her mouth. I'll never have to see her again so I was really just keeping my cool and being polite out of respect for a good friend of mine.

Makes perfect sense. I misunderstood and thought you were being infinitely more patient as a host than I could ever tolerate. It is unfortunate that there are people like that in the world.

 

[Mursilis]

There's not much to add except that it's a useful story for people not familiar with that people like that exist.

I've described it similarly to your post, our democracy failing at its goals, money that goes to a propaganda system keeping many people uninformed.

Why do you always assume it's the "system" keeping people ignorant? This "system" hasn't worked on you, has it? Do you think you're a hoodwinked rube being denied the truth? Maybe it's more true that some people choose to be uninformed for whatever reason. I wonder anymore how many people are truly interested in keeping up their end of the democratic compact - being intelligent, informed citizens making rational political choices.

Can you believe a fourth of the American people either think or aren't sure about Obama is the anti-Christ? How can they have reasonable opinions on any issue?

But if you think that's a problem, you're the enemy, the people trying to control their lives and destroy the country.

What this really shows in my opinion is simply the power of the marketing machine out to generate dissent in order to get political power for economic policies that benefit them.

While I agree that ignorance is a serious, serious problem, I no longer really expect individuals to be rational or reasonable either. I only expect them to be essentially self-interested, and usually only that in the short-term.

 

[Mursilis]

There seems to be a lot of fingers in ears. It's my side vs your side, thus all the labels, and nobody seems to be open to suggestion, constructive criticism, or new ideas. There's nothing I could say that's wiser than the church or talk radio.

That's true, across all political viewpoints. This is why I still respect people who have experienced major political shifts over the years as they've adjust their political views in light of new facts and evidence. Such "flip-flopping" tends to get a bad rap (and sometimes it should, depending on the reason for the change of heart), but if a person has shown an actual willingness to at least consider opposing viewpoints, then I have tremendous respect for them.

 

[lotus503]

Consider when this woman was growing up. How did she get information etc.

At 42 I remember when the media had a little integrity. When Cronkite stated something in the news it was pretty much the facts and you could trust what he said to a large degree as being factual. You could form an informed opinion on an issue.

Fast forward to today, take these same folks with the misconceptions that rush Limbaugh and hannity are like Cronkite.

That the opt Ed is factual and you can trust it to form an informed opinion.

Too many folks buy into where they get their information and think it represents the facts.

So when old lady hears Obama is the Antichrist and the center of our economic woes. She is thinking this is Cronkite factual baseline.

Not to mention people of a particular idealogical or partisan background used to clean up their own shit and hold their peers accountable for spewing nonsense and bull.

Now they simply don't, unless they have something personally to gain.

The team mentality in politics and government will be our undoing.

 

[Craig234]

Consider when this woman was growing up. How did she get information etc.

At 42 I remember when the media had a little integrity. When Cronkite stated something in the news it was pretty much the facts and you could trust what he said to a large degree as being factual. You could form an informed opinion on an issue.

Fast forward to today, take these same folks with the misconceptions that rush Limbaugh and hannity are like Cronkite.

That the opt Ed is factual and you can trust it to form an informed opinion.

Too many folks buy into where they get their information and think it represents the facts.

So when old lady hears Obama is the Antichrist and the center of our economic woes. She is thinking this is Cronkite factual baseline.

Not to mention people of a particular idealogical or partisan background used to clean up their own shit and hold their peers accountable for spewing nonsense and bull.

Now they simply don't, unless they have something personally to gain.

The team mentality in politics and government will be our undoing.

Ironically, for all the problems with media today, it's also the best it's ever been, if you look in the right places.

News shows of the Cronkite and Edward Murrow era had good qualities - talented people working hard to tell the truth in an era where jouranlism was not so driven by profits, when there were basically only three networks allowing for plenty of resources, when newspapers were far larger with many more resources.

But I think despite those good things, they were awfully limited in a lot of ways and pretty unsophisticated compared to things we've learned.

I'd put up the average Chris Hayes or Rachel Maddow show against any of the older shows on an average night any day of the week - they blow them out of the water in quality.

For example, the reporting on Vietnam was nothing compared to the reporting available on today's wars. Ed Murrow's second most famous journalism was the documentary about poor, migrant farm workers, 'Harvest of Shame', but the reporting on the poor on some shows is far, far better and more thorough today. Harvest of Shame had a lot of its impact because it was so unusual. A documentary with must as much info is routine today.

MSNBC and Current TV (and Al Jazeera English on the web), documentary series such as Frontline and Vanguard (and recently, Vice) are far more impressive than earlier.

Every show by Dan Rather on his current axs.tv show is better than any show when he was CBS anchor (or the other networks) that I can remember.

Thing is how few Americans take advantage of the excellent reporting; and how big the 'bad' journalism has become, with mega corporate ownership and other problems.