Discrimination in the name of religion

[peonyu]

First off, it's a private group meeting at a private location. They can do whatever they want.

Secondly, you're only ever going to get outrage over majority groups shunning minorities. Nobody cares about black groups not allowing whites, women's groups not allowing men, etc.

There are alot of people who do care about minority groups shunning other groups, if that wasnt the case then there would not be a 3 page thread about it. The obvious answer in the mainstream is that if a White person says something about it then he is billed a racist in order to shut him up. And if he wants a White-only group he is told look at how the KKK turned out [which is another way of shutting people up and making the issue drop, and that in itself is racist since it assumes White only = racism, yet Black only = Loves everybody and is Ok].


Another issue is that ONLY on a national scale are White people a majority. Areas such as South Florida are Hispanic majority yet there are "Hispanic only" groups everywhere you go. Once a area goes from White majority [with so-called White Privledge helping Whites out] to Majority-otherrace, Racism swings the other way very easily. Its no surprise that nearly every prominent position in Miami has someone named Gonzalez or Gomez in that spot. The Hispanic population only votes for their own and its perfectly A'ok for them to do so - they are flexing their Hispanic Privilege afterall.

And I know that Hispanic is not a "race", but culturally they are a group.


Also how about the South West states ? Rapidly becoming Mexican majority [with many areas already Mexican majority]. Racism there towards non-Mexicans ? Probably.

Black majority Detroit...When was the last time a White person was elected to a high office there ? And would it still be racist if the tiny white population of Detroit [8% of the City vs 90% of the city being black] made a White only group ? No doubt about it.

 

[fskimospy]

Hes trying to say that "people" who act like thugs or similar pieces of shit are discriminated against in the upper tier of American society. Big shocker I know. Most Rednecks fit that bill to, and a huge swath of the black population fits that bill to [go to Detroit, Chicago, inner city Boston for a day or two and be surprised].

I'm actually not saying that. I'm saying that certain racial and cultural characteristics give people a systemic advantage separate from their actual abilities or work due to racial biases in our society, lack of access to networks, etc, etc. There's a whole huge pile of literature on this subject.

 

[nehalem256]

I'm actually not saying that. I'm saying that certain racial and cultural characteristics give people a systemic advantage separate from their actual abilities or work due to racial biases in our society, lack of access to networks, etc, etc. There's a whole huge pile of literature on this subject.

So you are saying that a white coal miner's son from West Virginia will have greater access to networks etc than Barack Obama's daughters...

 

[peonyu]

I'm actually not saying that. I'm saying that certain racial and cultural characteristics give people a systemic advantage separate from their actual abilities or work due to racial biases in our society, lack of access to networks, etc, etc. There's a whole huge pile of literature on this subject.

Outdated literature most likely. White privilege itself is a old term that was coined in the 1960s, it did exist then but nowadays that is a huge task to prove. And Asian success, aswell as Asian-Indian success flies in the face of such notions. Lets add Muslims to the mix, despite 9/11, Muslims [of Mid East and Asian origin] are a wildly successful group in the USA. If White privilege and boogeyman racism was behind the reasons for black failure in the modern USA then surely it would effect other minority groups aswell. It doesnt though. So there is a problem with that 60+ year old concept when using it to view the modern world today in 2012.

There are also plenty of successful minority people, the difference is in some groups is their "white trash" is 10x higher than other groups "white trash". The Black crime rate is vastly disproportionate to their numbers in the population - they have more trash in their population than other groups have. Nobody is holding them down, they are doing it themselves.

*I know the reasoning behind the high crime rate will be blamed on racism etc...But there are vastttttt handouts today that give opportunities to land a job, get a career etc. If those people dont take those opportunities and instead choose to be a thug, its their fault and not racism.

 

[fskimospy]

Outdated literature most likely. White privilege itself is a old term that was coined in the 1960s, it did exist then but nowadays that is a huge task to prove. And Asian success, aswell as Asian-Indian success flies in the face of such notions. Lets add Muslims to the mix, despite 9/11, Muslims [of Mid East and Asian origin] are a wildly successful group in the USA. If White privilege and boogeyman racism was behind the reasons for black failure in the modern USA then surely it would effect other minority groups aswell. It doesnt though. So there is a problem with that 60+ year old concept when using it to view the modern world today in 2012.

Nope, not outdated literature. I encourage you to read up on it though, you would probably find it very interesting. The concept is also alive and well today, in fact the idea that such a bias exists isn't even considered controversial. You seem to be confusing white privilege as precluding other races from succeeding, when it simply provides an advantage. You also seem to be attempting to state that cultural racial attitudes must be equally dispersed onto all minority groups, which is a preposterous idea.

There are also plenty of successful minority people, the difference is in some groups is their "white trash" is 10x higher than other groups "white trash". The Black crime rate is vastly disproportionate to their numbers in the population - they have more trash in their population than other groups have. Nobody is holding them down, they are doing it themselves.

*I know the reasoning behind the high crime rate will be blamed on racism etc...But there are vastttttt handouts today that give opportunities to land a job, get a career etc. If those people dont take those opportunities and instead choose to be a thug, its their fault and not racism.

See now this is why you should go read the literature on racial privilege in the US. This complaint among many others is explicitly examined. The average black student exiting college with identical credentials to a white student is markedly less likely to have access to the same familial and professional networks through which most jobs are gotten. Hence, his future employment opportunities are not as good. That's simply one thread in a huge fabric.

I know that the idea of 'everything's just fine, some people are just lazy' is an emotionally appealing one, but it's just not supportable by the facts.

 

[fskimospy]

So you are saying that a white coal miner's son from West Virginia will have greater access to networks etc than Barack Obama's daughters...

I have no idea why you would think that unless you have either exceptionally poor reading comprehension or are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[alzan]

I have no idea why you would think that unless you have either exceptionally poor reading comprehension or are being deliberately obtuse.

He'll take deliberately obtuse for $200, Alex

 

[nehalem256]

See now this is why you should go read the literature on racial privilege in the US. This complaint among many others is explicitly examined. The average black student exiting college with identical credentials to a white student is markedly less likely to have access to the same familial and professional networks through which most jobs are gotten. Hence, his future employment opportunities are not as good. That's simply one thread in a huge fabric.

And what about the average Asian student. Why are you only mentioning black and white students?

 

[jackstar7]

And what about the average Asian student. Why are you only mentioning black and white students?

Culture. He's said it like 8 times.

Cultural bias is also a factor.

 

[Infohawk]

Religion should not be as protected as race. It's a choice and in many cases you are explicitly adopting certain values, in some cases those values are at odds with modern democratic values.

 

[peonyu]

Culture. He's said it like 8 times.

Cultural bias is also a factor.

A large portion of Americans dislike Islamic culture..Yet the number of Muhammeds doing well are extremely high. Its nice to have a scapegoat for everything though, white people are useful for black people to blame their failure on for everything it seems.


Course' its not expected to mention them Asians and Muslims. They are doing well despite the supposed "racism"...Man that throws a wrench into everything doesnt it ? But lets ignore that elephant and just focus on Black vs White.


Edit* Also can anyone answer this question: Why does Detroit suck so much ? That city is 90% black and black ran. It should be a Mecca for Black people, since they dont have any racist white people around. But its one of the poorest and most crime prone cities in the US [and the world]. You would figure it would be the opposite since Whites are not there to oppress them..

 

[nehalem256]

Culture. He's said it like 8 times.

Cultural bias is also a factor.

So its culture not race that results in privilege hmm.

But I thought all cultures were equal

 

[nehalem256]

Course' its not expected to mention them Asians and Muslims. They are doing well despite the supposed "racism"...Man that throws a wrench into everything doesnt it ? But lets ignore that elephant and just focus on Black vs White.

And I thought it was conservatives who were suppose to engage in black and white thinking

Edit* Also can anyone answer this question: Why does Detroit suck so much ? That city is 90% black and black ran. It should be a Mecca for Black people, since they dont have any racist white people around. But its one of the poorest and most crime prone cities in the US [and the world]. You would figure it would be the opposite since Whites are not there to oppress them..

Maybe it is a Black People Mecca. And we are just trying to impose our wealth obsessed, non-murderous, white culture on them? You really should try being more culturally sensitive :biggrin:

 

[Lonbjerg]

Religion should not be as protected as race. It's a choice and in many cases you are explicitly adopting certain values, in some cases those values are at odds with modern democratic values.

Actually it's not your own choce...most religions are choosen by childrens parents.

And thin of how lame that is...think if your parents were to choose your political view...at birth...and it would stick to your for life!

 

[Wreckem]

These are the special protections that we provide religious organizations. They are allowed to assemble themselves however they see fit. While I find the way Haredi culture treats women (essentially as second-class citizens) to be despicable, it's to some extent the price we pay to allow open religious freedom in this country.

I will also say that there are many non-religious organizations are are allowed to have similar levels of discrimination (the Augusta National Golf Club, for instance).

This is why there is occasionally a push for an equal rights amendment that includes women. Unlike ethnic minorities, women are generally not considered a protected class under the law.



There were many that came in from other parts of the northeast (the Times article interviewed someone from Toronto).

Uh? Women are a protected class.

The issue is that protection only extends so far, it doesn't dictate what a private membership organization can do. Protection applies to being treated equally by the govt's, education, public accommodation, common carriers, employment. It does not dictate what a truly private orgs/private membership establishments can do. There were country clubs that had white only membership policies up until the late 1990s. And there are still some that while they don't have a written exclusionary policy, there is a de-facto ban because they are still all white even after blacks applied. As for the church, most laws don't apply to religious groups(increasingly more so).

 

[1prophet]

Actually it's not your own choce...most religions are choosen by childrens parents.

And thin of how lame that is...think if your parents were to choose your political view...at birth...and it would stick to your for life!

That is the same ignorant view held by the conservative right about Obama being a Muslim,

religion is a choice and a right just as being an atheist or agnostic is a choice and a right, and even though children may appear to be of a certain religion in early childhood because of their parents, when they become adults they have the choice and right to stick with it or leave it,

just like they can choose to be democrat or republican or (party of choice) when they arrive at voting age regardless of their parents political persuasions.

 

[cybrsage]

Religion should not be as protected as race. It's a choice and in many cases you are explicitly adopting certain values, in some cases those values are at odds with modern democratic values.

The constitution provides the protection...there is no choice but to protect religion from government and government from religion.

 

[Lonbjerg]

That is the same ignorant view held by the conservative right about Obama being a Muslim,

religion is a choice and a right just as being an atheist or agnostic is a choice and a right, and even though children may appear to be of a certain religion in early childhood because of their parents, when they become adults they have the choice and right to stick with it or leave it,

just like they can choose to be democrat or republican or (party of choice) when they arrive at voting age regardless of their parents political persuasions.

If your argument was true, this map shouldn't look like this:

Clear geographic areas...if your claim was true...the map would look all mixed up.

 

[cybrsage]

That huge green area is because if you convert away from Islam you are killed. If your parents are Islamic, your choice is to pretend to be Islamic (or actualy BE Islamic), or die.

 

[jackstar7]

So its culture not race that results in privilege hmm.

But I thought all cultures were equal

Culture AND race. He said it so many times.

 

[fskimospy]

Culture AND race. He said it so many times.

Not to mention that race is a social construct anyway and is highly related to culture. He's trying to change the conversation because I gave him a super obvious example of privilege and he has no answer for it.

 

[Texashiker]

There was a news article a couple of weeks ago where a state was looking at passing a law that would prohibit churches from discriminating against gays.

If the church was rented for a wedding between a man and woman, the law would require the church to be rented to gay couples.

Why is there an outcry against religions decrementing against gays, but few people care if religion decrements against women?

If I remember right, there was a thread here in the political section maybe a year ago debating whether women should lead a church. There was a lot of name calling in that thread and a lot of insults being thrown around.

So why aren't we seeing the same attitudes towards jews, as we see towards chirstians?

When christians exclude women from church activities, we are bigots and sexist.

When jews or muslims exclude women from church activities, that is just the way it is and nobody says anything.

 

[fskimospy]

There was a news article a couple of weeks ago where a state was looking at passing a law that would prohibit churches from discriminating against gays.

If the church was rented for a wedding between a man and woman, the law would require the church to be rented to gay couples.

Why is there an outcry against religions decrementing against gays, but few people care if religion decrements against women?

If I remember right, there was a thread here in the political section maybe a year ago debating whether women should lead a church. There was a lot of name calling in that thread and a lot of insults being thrown around.

So why aren't we seeing the same attitudes towards jews, as we see towards chirstians?

When christians exclude women from church activities, we are bigots and sexist.

When jews or muslims exclude women from church activities, that is just the way it is and nobody says anything.

If a church wishes to discriminate against gays in ways that are related to the practice of their religion it is their right to do so. If the legislature passes a law prohibiting that it will be thrown out.

There's a difference between being shitty people and doing something illegal. Those who discriminate against women and gays on the basis of religion are awful people, but our country respects people's right to be horrible human beings.

 

[nehalem256]

Not to mention that race is a social construct anyway and is highly related to culture. He's trying to change the conversation because I gave him a super obvious example of privilege and he has no answer for it.

Except you didnt. You made a generalized statement. And it has nothing to do with race or culture. It was really about CLASS. And you forgot to mention how Asians would fit into your generalize statement (because you knew it would destroy you little Black and White worldview).

 

[cybrsage]

If a church wishes to discriminate against gays in ways that are related to the practice of their religion it is their right to do so. If the legislature passes a law prohibiting that it will be thrown out.

There's a difference between being shitty people and doing something illegal. Those who discriminate against women and gays on the basis of religion are awful people, but our country respects people's right to be horrible human beings.

Then you agree the laws saying religion must fund birth control should be thrown out, correct?