Discrete sound cards and onboard sound.

[bononos]

Hopefully that's not the VIA VT2021. The new gigabyte Z77 mobo I just bought has one. Never used a VIA chip, last few boards have had some form of ACXX

.....

I didn't mean that certain ASICs would be problematic, what I meant was that the mb layout and design have an impact on EMI/latency/whatever.. issues (I am not an ee engineer) and so its more dependent upon the mb model assuming components like capacitors don't get swapped for inferior version during the manufacturing lifecycle. So there are sound and unsound Realtek/VIA implementations of onboard audio.

 

[weez82]

He isn't trolling. It's well known that Creative tunes their cards to produce exaggerated highs and lows at the expense of accurate reproduction in the midrange. Lots of people perceive that sound as "better", which is fine as their own opinion, but it is most certainly not how the recording "should" sound (i.e. not accurate).

Im calling bs. All reviews of the xfi line (the cards I was talking about) show a even frequency response. Where are you getting this info that they alter the frequency response? Please post links to back that up.

 

[bononos]

Its the crystalizer thing.

 

[weez82]

Its the crystalizer thing.

the use of a dsp from any brand on any product (receiver, soundcard, mp3 player, ect) will alter the sound. If thats what anyone was referring to then thats just dumb as it's easy to turn off

 

[ZeroRift]

After years of using discreet sound, I figured I'd give onboard Realtek audio a try when I built my i7 two years ago. I was honestly shocked by how muddy and dead the sound was even when playing music into my el-cheapo headphones. After about a week of use, I decided it wasn't a placebo and grabbed an X-Fi card. That was the best $60 I ever spent. Even my wife (who is not nearly as picky as I am with audio) could tell such a large difference that she went out and bought one for her rig as well.

As for the Creative bloatware....

I too had always hated how they would install like 10 different applications with your sound driver that just made things sound, frankly, odd. But with my current card I did actually install the control panel so I could use a custom EQ at the driver level. It works great to balance out my otherwise low end audio hardware in games, etc.

I've never used a discreet card from another company so I may not know what I'm missing from a $200 card, but I do know this: I will never use onboard audio again unless it undergoes some SERIOUS renovation.

 

[RampantAndroid]

When playing back sound, on-board sound cardsare getting so close to discrete cards that the price difference is nearly always better spend on better headphones/amp/speakers.
The difference is getting very small.

When recording, the picture is very different. Discrete cards are leaps and bounds ahead, even a lowly SB Live trounces any onboard solution.

But if you are taking recording seriously, you want to get in Maya/M-Audio/RME/Steinberg territory anyway.

I use a pair of either UM3Xs or SE530s on my ASUS P67 3.1 motherboard at work and I hear noise. Use it on my Xonar STX (no amp) and I hear...no hiss. No noise.

I find onboard to be a far cry from nearing discrete.

 

[mfenn]

the use of a dsp from any brand on any product (receiver, soundcard, mp3 player, ect) will alter the sound. If thats what anyone was referring to then thats just dumb as it's easy to turn off

It's not dumb because that stuff is on by default. 99% of people will leave it that way and so associate the Creative sound with "good". See the post directly below yours for proof.

 

[weez82]

It's not dumb because that stuff is on by default. 99% of people will leave it that way and so associate the Creative sound with "good". See the post directly below yours for proof.

It is dumb to say a sound card or any other device is bad do to a dsp. Easy, dont use it. As for creative, when I had my x-fi card all I had to do to listen to music was go into entertainment mode and I was set. If you stay in game mode then yes, it will have all the extra stuff on by default. And the post below mine was talking about custom EQ. To me that means he made adjustments to the eq himself. You can do that with loads of equipment, does that mean those are bad too? I dont care if you or anyone else dislikes any brand but typing up bogus info isnt cool.

The sound quality between Creative and Asus is on par with each other. Most onboard sound cards cant compete with discrete cards from analog out or headphone out. Those are facts that are backed up by tests.

 

[mfenn]

Any feature that comes on by default is what the majority of people will use and is how it should be reviewed. Check out any of the Anandtech case or motherboard reviews. Saying "well, but you can just turn it off" is like saying that an i5 2500K is faster than an i5 3570K if you overclock the i5 2500K but not the i5 3570K.

 

[Kristijonas]

the use of a dsp from any brand on any product (receiver, soundcard, mp3 player, ect) will alter the sound. If thats what anyone was referring to then thats just dumb as it's easy to turn off

Ok, I need a clarification here. What is dsp and what should I do with it to make my audio sound best? ;x Do you mean all those programs/software that alters audio by "equalizing" and adding effects? The card I bough (will get it in 10 days) is for gaming, so it will probably have some sound tweaks added to them. How do I disable them? Is it possible that they are hardcoded though?


Also, in many reviews, I've read something about digital, analog and optical connections from the audio card and that some are better than the others. I will be using these speakers: http://www.edifier-international.com/products/edifier-studio/r1900tii with ASUS Xonar DG. The speakers cable is called "RCA connector" it seems. So will I achieve best quality by simply inserting it directly in the sound card? It's a good connection type? Will sound quality be lower if I insert through front panel? I will probably disable onboard audio altogether before installing the sound card.

 

[ZeroRift]

DSP is short for Digital Signal Processing. It's a pretty generic term, but in the context it is referring to both the "hardcoded" equalizers and effects present on a digital audio devices and the software effects that can be turned off by not installing them / disabling them. In general, good manufacturers strive to achieve a flat frequency response (EQ) accross their I/O spectra at the hardware level, so there really shouldn't be any "hardcoded" effects on a well built card.

I can't comment on the Xonar's software / hardware, but since they are a mainstream vendor, I would guess it would be pretty easy to disable any audio "enhancements" they may try to bundle in with your driver. What I do with sound hardware is to install only the driver to begin with, then install any other software I decide I want later.

I've run cables out the back of my card as well as through the front panel on my case and I can't hear a difference in quality between them, although YMMV depending on the level of EMI inside your case and the quality of internal soldering and cabling of your front panel. 3.5mm RCA is just a smaller version of what many professionals use on monitor headphones. As long as you're not using really long cables or need to run the signal through a receiver, 3.5mm RCA will do just fine.

 

[bononos]

......
The sound quality between Creative and Asus is on par with each other. Most onboard sound cards cant compete with discrete cards from analog out or headphone out. Those are facts that are backed up by tests.

The tests can and do show that the limiting factor is more likely the speakers/headphones.

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/multimedia/creative-x-fi-pcie-p4.html
The 2009 ixbt subjective testing for the x-fi titanium cards showed no real difference btwn the x-fis vs onboard Realtek 889A on a pair of Microlab bookshelfs.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/05/01/sound_blaster_recon3d_fatal1ty_card_review/8
2012 rmaa numbers for Recon3d fatal1ty comparison vs onboard Realtek 892.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-373-2.htm
rmaa test with Audigy1 vs ALC888 vs ADI1885 (typical of 2002 onboard)

 

[Kristijonas]

Thank you, ZeroRift, that's a very thorough and logical answer.

 

[weez82]

All those links prove what I already typed. Discrete cards have the superior analog out as well as headphone out. But yes, you're right, for a lot of people the limiting factor is speakers/headphones. I know all my friends use the cheapest they can get and are fine with it. They're just not willing to spend $100+ on a good pair of cans or $150+ on speakers. But the people that are willing to spend on a sound card usually (not always) have nice headphones/speakers and will benefit from discrete (unless using the optical out).

 

[nsafreak]

I've been noticing this more as of late as I've started to pick up FPS gaming again but the positional capabilities of my onboard sound just aren't up to par it would seem. The SNR on the onboard sound isn't bad at all (this is a Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3) and the audio quality seems to be just fine. I'm currently using a pair of M-Audio AV30 speakers and sometimes a pair of Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones when playing games. Would I notice an improvement in terms of positional audio if I went with a Creative Recon3D Fata1ty?

 

[Kristijonas]

Would I notice an improvement in terms of positional audio if I went with a Creative Recon3D Fata1ty?

I don't know but it seems you could benefit from ASUS Xonar gaming series.
http://event.asus.com/multimedia/xonar/find.htm
I've read many reviews about ASUS Xonar DG and in many of them they say that it's positional sounds are very good. Of course only if used with appropriate sound equipment, and I think yours is appropriate.

 

[ZeroRift]

Be careful with high-end discreet audio purchases. Many mid-low end cards have all the features you want (3d audio, EAX, etc.) for half the price. In the past, I've bought the creative "gamer" line because it had exactly what I needed at a fraction of the price of a "Fata1ty Uber OMG FTW Live!" card.

As always, do your research before you buy.

 

[Kristijonas]

Be careful with high-end discreet audio purchases. Many mid-low end cards have all the features you want (3d audio, EAX, etc.) for half the price. In the past, I've bought the creative "gamer" line because it had exactly what I needed at a fraction of the price of a "Fata1ty Uber OMG FTW Live!" card.

As always, do your research before you buy.

Agreed, for headphone gaming ASUS Xonar DS is as good as it gets from ASUS.

 

[lsv]

Let's tackle a few points now and maybe we can shut this thread down;

Onboard vs. Discrete Quality; All sound cards work by using a DAC, Digital to Analog converter, these pretty much turn your digital hippidy hops into analog hippidy hops that you can play on any regular speaker system. Now, the DAC in standardized AC'97 internal cards is essentially indistinguishable from that of a prosumer sound card. Why? Because after years of work the quality has become so high for so cheap that a normal user will not be able to tell the different at 44.1khz/16bit. Now let's say the user wants to listen to 48khz audio or maybe 96khz/24bit recordings or FLAC, what have you, then maybe... MAYBE their combination of sound card, speaker and source will merrit the purchase of a prosumer card. However, once you reach the $200 mark a prosumer card like a Fatality is simply snake oil. The end user is better off buying a professional 'Audio Interface' which supports balanced outputs and ASIO sound.

EMI; First off, there's a whackton of EMI on the PCI and PCIe bus. TONS! Imagine placing a sound card on the same bus as a 200watt video card. That's going to give you a ton of interference when the card ramps up. Having an internal card up up the CPU will most likely merit the least amount of interference... Then of course there's USB/Firewire, which are probably the best solutions in isolation the card from the digital signal coming in to the analog signal going out. This is the best solution to circumvent EMI.

Price; There's no reason, NONE, to buy a discrete sound card especially on the PCIe bus when you have a well isolated onboard sound card available for essentially free.

Bit depth; Bonus points here if you know that Direct Sound truncates 24bit audio to 16bit. So those of you playing high quality FLAC rips in WMP/VLC/Winamp or anything that uses MME/DirectSound to play your HQ FLACs are simply being played out at 16bits? That's why some people hear that high end tinny artifact that happens with un-dithered bit-depth lowering.

Anyhoo, that's a post that's all over the place.

Back to mixing I go.

 

[Kristijonas]

So those of you playing high quality FLAC rips in WMP/VLC/Winamp or anything that uses MME/DirectSound to play your HQ FLACs are simply being played out at 16bits?

What is the solution? Is there a player that doesn't do that?

 

[Remobz]

Agreed, for headphone gaming ASUS Xonar DS is as good as it gets from ASUS.

On many other forums and threads I have read many people say the ASUS DG is as good as it gets for headphone gaming for a fraction of the cost.

Do you still agree that the ASUS DS is better than the ASUS DG?

 

[lsv]

What is the solution? Is there a player that doesn't do that?

An ASIO sound card and ASIO plugin for your media player is probably the best solution right now. I use an ASIO out plugin with Winamp to play HQ FLACs or to skim through 24bit/96khz recordings without opening my DAW.

http://www.winamp.com/plugin/asio-output-plugin/156466

ASIO bypasses the OS layer and connects the software to the sound card. It's called 1 to 1 replication at times.

Edit - I'm fairly certain some cheaper ASIO cards break with this plugin btw, such as M-Audio/low end Akai stuff. Works fine for my Win7 and a Komplete Audio 6 from NI.

 

[Kristijonas]

Thank you !
Remobz I haven't compared them both. I think their main differences are some more features and better processing unit in DS. But the difference is very minimal. I've ordered Xonar DG, it should arrive on monday. The minimal difference between DG and DS wasn't worth my money (that is scarce).

 

[thelastjuju]

Be careful with high-end discreet audio purchases. Many mid-low end cards have all the features you want (3d audio, EAX, etc.) for half the price. In the past, I've bought the creative "gamer" line because it had exactly what I needed at a fraction of the price of a "Fata1ty Uber OMG FTW Live!" card.

As always, do your research before you buy.

Some of you just don't get it, do you?

These "FEATURES" you speak of.. you don't NEED them.. 3D Audio, EAX emulation, etc.. are not NATURAL, and are not what determines high quality sound. They seem to serve as nothing more than marketing buzz words, which apparently work just as successfully as the "fat4l1ty" type of advertising you are criticizing. Many of you actually think this stuff matters.

The hardware matters.. the DAC, the DSP, the opamps, etc.. THEY determine your sound quality, and not all are created equal.. If you have the high quality hardware, you don't want ANY of this artificial, emulation, simulation, manipulation of sound, etc .. its all nonsense and for me, completely undesirable.

And the speakers/headphones are of course the biggest factor. The higher quality speakers, the more you'd benefit from say a higher quality DAC and higher quality amplification and even sources like FLAC, SACD, and Vinyl.

Price; There's no reason, NONE, to buy a discrete sound card especially on the PCIe bus when you have a well isolated onboard sound card available for essentially free.

I don't know how you can even make this comment, with the overwhelming amount of people, even with the totally entry-level Asus XONAR card, claiming they heard very significant differences over onboard.

In fact, it seems like every person to ever pop in a good sound card has reached that very same conclusion unless they went ahead and outputted digital, rendering the sound card useless anyway. Although I do realize we have a lot of people who do this though.

Do you think we're all just falling for some crazy placebo effect or something? Because all you have to do is go BACK to onboard sound after running a good sound card for a while, and you are immediately greeted with a pronounced dull and lifeless sound quality.

 

[bononos]

All those links prove what I already typed. Discrete cards have the superior analog out as well as headphone out. But yes, you're right, for a lot of people the limiting factor is speakers/headphones. I know all my friends use the cheapest they can get and are fine with it. They're just not willing to spend $100+ on a good pair of cans or $150+ on speakers. But the people that are willing to spend on a sound card usually (not always) have nice headphones/speakers and will benefit from discrete (unless using the optical out).

Those links qualify your earlier assertion about onboard vs discrete cards if you look carefully. The 2012 ibxt link subjective testing was performed on quality $200-250 bookshelfs and the conclusion was that the x-fi's did not sound better.

People who plunk down money for a discrete card may do it because they still think that onboard sucks or because they are so used to having something creative for audio. I doubt that most as you are suggesting will have $200+ speakers and even if they do they would probably have a a surround set with a bunch of small satellites.