Discrete sound cards and onboard sound.

[ZeroRift]

lsv, I have to disagree with you here....

Many people have posted in this thread asserting that there is a difference. So your assumption that onboard audio is comparable to discreet is at least subjectively false.

Saying that the DACs are comparable and therefore the audio output is comparable is a gross oversimplification. A DAC is only one component of a digital audio device. Even if they were comparable, it would not mean the signal coming out of each device would be.

That aside, how can we be sure the DAC in each is comparable at all? Do you have any technical information on the DACs present in AC'97 and prosumer cards?

The difference between my $60 discreet card and my onboard AC'97 was immediately noticed by audio laymen who heard my computer before and after install, even with my el-cheapo $20 speakers. I also used to have two machines next to each other in the same room with the same el-cheapo speakers, one running a discreet card and one using onboard. The difference between AC'97 and discreet was staggering.

At a minimum, audio quality difference between each solution is subjective and cannot be written off as simply as onboard = discreet.

$200+ uber cards do have their place, but their added feature sets usually do not justify the increased cost to the end user. There are a few end users who may desire those features enough to sink in the extra cash. Though that audience is likely very small, it does not make those extra features "snakeoil".

On EMI: The onboard audio devices are usually located in one of two locations: right next to the cpu, or near the PCI slots. If the onboard chip is located right next to your graphics card, it will be subjected to very similar levels of EMI as the discreet sound card. If the chip is next to your cpu... well... graphics cards aren't the only devices in your computer that consume lots of power. There is likely a comparable amount of EMI from the VRMs / fans near the CPU as there is from the VRMs / fans on a GPU. It is also likely that discreet cards, being located on their own PCH, would be more able to filter / sink EMI on the outputs than their onboard counterparts.

Offloading the DSP to an independent device via USB / Firewire would go a long way towards reducing EMI, but then you have to consider the quality of the receiving devices as well. Most USB headphones, for instance, use software only DSP, which brings us right back to subjective analysis. You cannot simply say that and external receiver will always outperform an internal device due to EMI reductions.

Price: people spend hundreds of dollars on car audio systems that they may only listen to for a few minutes a day. What's wrong with spending <$100 if the difference is just as tangible? But, this goes back to your assumption that onboard and discreet are comparable....

I have noticed that raising bit depth above 16 doesn't improve the quality noticeably... I wonder if you can circumvent Direct Sound to output better audio.... Time for more research!

 

[ZeroRift]

These "FEATURES" you speak of.. you don't NEED them.. 3D Audio, EAX emulation, etc.. are not NATURAL, and are not what determines high quality sound. They seem to serve as nothing more than marketing buzz words, which apparently work just as successfully as the "fat4l1ty" type of advertising you are criticizing. Many of you actually think this stuff matters.

You're definitely right about these effects not being natural. They certainly alter the sound coming out of the card to make it less true to the original. I would never use these effects on things like music, but for games it's a very different story. 3D is usually pretty terrible on music, but it adds a lot of spatialization for FPS titles that many people demand. I also like the EAX effects in most games because they add reverb, echo etc. to scenes that would have it real life, but that weren't programmed with the effect.

You're also right, they are not items that relate the quality of sound coming out of the card (at least not in a good way), but that doesn't mean that they don't matter to some people.

 

[Kristijonas]

unless they went ahead and outputted digital, rendering the sound card useless anyway. Although I do realize we have a lot of people who do this though.

What does it mean and how do I avoid this..?

 

[Kristijonas]

People who plunk down money for a discrete card may do it because they still think that onboard sucks or because they are so used to having something creative for audio. I doubt that most as you are suggesting will have $200+ speakers and even if they do they would probably have a a surround set with a bunch of small satellites.

Or because there are people like me who feel the difference even between different onboard audios. It's subjective and could be placebo but I really believe I felt the difference even between Realtek 887 and 889 which sounded much nicer. I'm not even talking about shitty onboard sound on the dv6000 that I'm now using.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Those links qualify your earlier assertion about onboard vs discrete cards if you look carefully. The 2012 ibxt link subjective testing was performed on quality $200-250 bookshelfs and the conclusion was that the x-fi's did not sound better.

People who plunk down money for a discrete card may do it because they still think that onboard sucks or because they are so used to having something creative for audio. I doubt that most as you are suggesting will have $200+ speakers and even if they do they would probably have a a surround set with a bunch of small satellites.

Like I mentioned earlier: I can hear noise on my IEMs. The difference is VERY real.

 

[weez82]

Those links qualify your earlier assertion about onboard vs discrete cards if you look carefully. The 2012 ibxt link subjective testing was performed on quality $200-250 bookshelfs and the conclusion was that the x-fi's did not sound better.

People who plunk down money for a discrete card may do it because they still think that onboard sucks or because they are so used to having something creative for audio. I doubt that most as you are suggesting will have $200+ speakers and even if they do they would probably have a a surround set with a bunch of small satellites.

You never posted a ibxt 2012 link. You posted a 2009 link. And the speakers used in that test where $120 monitors not $250 bookshelf speakers. Not that it matters seeing as many people have posted that they heard a clear difference switching to a discrete card vs onboard using there monitors, pc speakers, ht systems, stereo systems and, headphones. And they failed to properly test headphone performance and gaming performance. And other tests out there using RMAA show that discrete cards have superior analog output.

 

[ElFenix]

i got a little external xfi USB box because the EMI on headphones for my onboard at the time was so terrible. may have had a grounding issue. it was really bad whenever windows decided to run up the CD for no apparent reason. dunno if my new motherboard is any better or not.

 

[thelastjuju]

What does it mean and how do I avoid this..?

You avoid it by outputting Analog. If the card dosen't have your traditional RED and WHITE outputs, you can pick up a 3.5mm jack -> RED/WHITE adapter for a few bucks at radio shack.

When you output digital from a sound card, you are effectively bypassing the sound card's efforts and simply passing the digital signal along, untouched. So if you output digital, the digital to analog conversion (DAC) will take place in the next piece of equipment in line, like your receiver.

Chances are the sound card will probably have a higher quality DAC than most entry level receivers will, so by outputting ANALOG, you take advantage of the sound card's DAC and use the receiver purely for amplification. But everyone should experiment and go with whichever method produces best sound.

You're definitely right about these effects not being natural. They certainly alter the sound coming out of the card to make it less true to the original. I would never use these effects on things like music, but for games it's a very different story. 3D is usually pretty terrible on music, but it adds a lot of spatialization for FPS titles that many people demand. I also like the EAX effects in most games because they add reverb, echo etc. to scenes that would have it real life, but that weren't programmed with the effect.

You're also right, they are not items that relate the quality of sound coming out of the card (at least not in a good way), but that doesn't mean that they don't matter to some people.

I guess its all a preference really. Even for games, I still prefer the pure unaltered sound. Just seems like its inevitable that when you start to "manipulate" the sound, the quality starts to diminish along with it.

We also have to factor in how the higher end you go with your speakers, the less "forgiving" everything becomes. So any flaws, blemishes, and imperfections that you might not have noticed on lower end equipment, become more pronounced and obvious the higher end you go. I can't even hear the blemishes that come along with compressing all the way to 128k mp3 on rinky dink PC speakers, but on my studio monitors the compression sounds like a mini underwater-like effect going on. Hard to describe, but very noticeable that the sound quality is being gimped.

But if you like the "EAX"-like manipulation of sound, go for it.. but most sound cards will come with software that allows you to tweak reverb and echo like effects anyway. Nothing wrong with that.. Sometimes I'll listen to live recordings with the reverb up a tiny bit to add to the "live" effect, but I can easily notice I'm sacrificing a bit on overall sound clarity when I do it.

 

[sandorski]

My enthusiasm for PC Audio pretty much died with Aureal.

 

[ZeroRift]

We also have to factor in how the higher end you go with your speakers, the less "forgiving" everything becomes. So any flaws, blemishes, and imperfections that you might not have noticed on lower end equipment, become more pronounced and obvious the higher end you go.

You know, that's a great observation. I've been looking at getting some real sound hardware for my rig for a while now and I hadn't considered that. I can definitely see myself moving away from software effects if they're no longer needed / become more detrimental. I doubt I'll get rid of my EQ though. At least until I can get a REAL hardware EQ

 

[Kristijonas]

You avoid it by outputting Analog. If the card dosen't have your traditional RED and WHITE outputs, you can pick up a 3.5mm jack -> RED/WHITE adapter for a few bucks at radio shack.

When you output digital from a sound card, you are effectively bypassing the sound card's efforts and simply passing the digital signal along, untouched. So if you output digital, the digital to analog conversion (DAC) will take place in the next piece of equipment in line, like your receiver.

Chances are the sound card will probably have a higher quality DAC than most entry level receivers will, so by outputting ANALOG, you take advantage of the sound card's DAC and use the receiver purely for amplification. But everyone should experiment and go with whichever method produces best sound.

My sound card will be http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_DG/
and speakers are
http://www.edifier-international.com/products/edifier-studio/r1900tii
So I guess I'll need the "3.5mm jack -> RED/WHITE adapter" ?

 

[thelastjuju]

You know, that's a great observation. I've been looking at getting some real sound hardware for my rig for a while now and I hadn't considered that. I can definitely see myself moving away from software effects if they're no longer needed / become more detrimental. I doubt I'll get rid of my EQ though. At least until I can get a REAL hardware EQ

Yeah the EQ is essential.

A simple tweaking of the EQ can make night and day differences. But unlike artificially manipulating the sound, the EQ is just allowing us to place more emphasis on the frequencies that sound best, and less emphasis on the frequencies that sound worst.. resulting in overall dramatically improved sound quality if set correctly.

Some people like it flat, but I think most people would be best off setting their EQ's in the shape of a "V" or the smiley faced pattern. This helps sort-of de-emphasize the midrange, and places more emphasis on the highs and lows to shine through. On lower and even mid end equipment this should almost always sound better, since they are usually heaviest on midrange to begin with, and midrange is definitely the hardest to accurately reproduce.

--

Kristijonas, yup you will need that cable.

This one:

Which plugs into the lime green jack.

I'm not familiar with those speakers though.. but they look like they take the RCA input (your red and whites)

 

[Kristijonas]

thelastjuju: I have this cable!
It came with the speakers.

I had put red and white into the speakers and the black one (which is green in my case) into the PC. Am I doing it right? If not, could you help me find what I need? I can buy from this list: http://www.skytech.lt/kabeliai-perejimai-audio-video-c-86_782_787.html

Also there's one strange thing. I have both red and white inserted into the speaker, however it needs only the red cable. It could play without the white one (I have the feeling I'm doing something wrong?)

 

[thelastjuju]

Not sure.. wish I could help, but I'm just not familiar enough with your setup.

That is strange though, are you sure the 3.5mm is plugged in all the way? Sometimes when it isn't plugged in 100% you get a sort of mono effect going on.

There is no actual difference between the red and white cables though, so hopefully that helps with troubleshooting. Does it work with just a white in there too?

 

[Kristijonas]

Yes it works perfectly with just the white cable also. Plugging in both certainly makes no difference... Which is strange, because there are 4 holes in total:

http://www.nix.ru/autocatalog/speakers_edifier/61130_2312_draft_large.jpg

 

[Kristijonas]

*facepalm*
ok I'm sorry! I found out that if I only insert one cable (either red or white) then only one speaker works! Couldn't make a difference because they are in strange places now. So yeah, both are connected and have to be connected for both speakers to work.

But what about the 3.5mm black/green cable? You said the sound card should have red/white connections also? I will need to have a 3.5mm to RCA adapter for sound card so that it goes like this?

2x red/white ---> 3.5mm adapter 3.5mm <--- 2x red/white
?

 

[ZeroRift]

Kristijonas:
The red one is for the right speaker, the white one is for the left speaker. If you don't plug in the white, the speaker's builtin receiver may just be reverting to mono. Make sure the black end is plugged in to the Line Out jack on your sound card and make sure you're getting stereo sound out of the speakers.

thelastjuju:
Yeah, I recommend the smiley EQ pattern to everyone with entry level hardware (don't know any pros) and they tend to agree it helps everything sound better. I always thought it helped because low end hardware has weaker frequency response near the top and bottom of the spectrum. So, if the hardware is an effective EQ shaped like a frown, applying a hardware / software EQ like a smiley produces a "flat" result. That's what it sounds like to me anyways....

I've always felt the non-EQ audio has the mids drowning out the highs and lows, which is what led me to the "V" pattern. I think that, contrary to what you said, low end audio actually focuses on / emphasizes the mid range because it's EASIER to reproduce with medium sized drivers and it's what the laymen listener hears the most of from their low end media sources (the raido, free pandora, etc.). Whereas higher end systems have dedicated drivers for highs, mids and lows (tweet, woof, subwoof), and as a result, have less need for an EQ.

Regardless of the cause, I would shrivel and die without an EQ for my el-cheapo sound system.

 

[RAJOD]

Thanks folks! Course now I should get new speakers! =9

Glad you like your new Xonar sound card. Here let me help you spend money

I think I'm getting these or maybe some 2.0 swans.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?products_id=167

 

[fastman]

I use a Creative Labs X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Ed now and have had them since the Sound Blaster days.

Back in the day they just sounded so much better. Current reason why is to free up every frame I can and ease up CPU cycles. Sound difference, not much likely these days but oh well.

 

[bononos]

You never posted a ibxt 2012 link. You posted a 2009 link. And the speakers used in that test where $120 monitors not $250 bookshelf speakers. Not that it matters seeing as many people have posted that they heard a clear difference switching to a discrete card vs onboard using there monitors, pc speakers, ht systems, stereo systems and, headphones. And they failed to properly test headphone performance and gaming performance. And other tests out there using RMAA show that discrete cards have superior analog output.

You're right my mistake the Solo 6 are $120 powered speakers.
I fail to see however why gaming matters in terms of sound quality since gaming audio is not hi-fi.
I'm not insisting that onboard generally has superior analog out but that the quality of onboard as shown by rmaa testing has improved tremendously to the point where the better numbers for discrete soundcards are becoming academic. I mean does it really matter for most users if the measured noise floor for onboard realteks are ~-90db vs -98db for x-fi?

 

[thelastjuju]

You're right my mistake the Solo 6 are $120 powered speakers.
I fail to see however why gaming matters in terms of sound quality since gaming audio is not hi-fi.
I'm not insisting that onboard generally has superior analog out but that the quality of onboard as shown by rmaa testing has improved tremendously to the point where the better numbers for discrete soundcards are becoming academic. I mean does it really matter for most users if the measured noise floor for onboard realteks are ~-90db vs -98db for x-fi?

You fail to see why gaming matters in terms of sound quality? Not "hi-fi"? Hi-Fi is just a generic term for high quality audio. What exactly do you mean?

The musical score playing in the background is going to be a lossless .WAV file, and each and every sound effect is in lossless form as well. Why would having higher quality sound, all around, not matter? If anything, it helps immerse you in the game even more. ALL the sound being produced on the higher end sound card will result in a more accurate and realistic soundscape.

Onboard sound has definitely improved over the years.. there's no doubt.. but COMPARED TO what you can get out of a good sound card, even brand new motherboards are producing cheap and dull sound that leaves you wanting much much more out of it.. assuming you have good enough speakers of course..

Also, statistics that come from man-made devices are NEVER able to truly "measure" sound quality. They can try all they want, but you can't get around how the human ear perceives sound much differently from the way a computerized device will. They may be able to measure quantities, but not the QUALITY of the sound..

 

[Kristijonas]

You studying philosophy or something?

 

[Kristijonas]

Ok, I have installed my ASUS Xonar DG. This is the first time I'm using a discrete sound card. To everyone here who loves listening to any kind of audio, game or music - I strongly recommend buying a sound card. The difference is VERY noticeable. Even without messing with settings at all and installing old ASUS drivers (and not the unofficial ones that are supposedly much better) the difference is HUGE. Now I'm pretty sure that skeptics of discrete sound card probably never tried them themselves. Before this sound card I tried Realtek 887 and 889. They too sound different from each other, but barely noticeably. Not the difference I witnessed with Xonar DG.

 

[Remobz]

Ok, I have installed my ASUS Xonar DG. This is the first time I'm using a discrete sound card. To everyone here who loves listening to any kind of audio, game or music - I strongly recommend buying a sound card. The difference is VERY noticeable. Even without messing with settings at all and installing old ASUS drivers (and not the unofficial ones that are supposedly much better) the difference is HUGE. Now I'm pretty sure that skeptics of discrete sound card probably never tried them themselves. Before this sound card I tried Realtek 887 and 889. They too sound different from each other, but barely noticeably. Not the difference I witnessed with Xonar DG.

I can ONLY use headphones for gaming and music. Can you please test out how it sounds with headphones and if one needs an external DAC to take advantage of the headphones?

 

[ZeroRift]

The headphone port should be comparable to the line-out port for quality regardless of specific hardware. The only difference between them is that the headphone port is pre-amplified so that you don't need any kind of receiver to get loud sounds out of a pair of headphones.