Discrete sound cards and onboard sound.

[Imp]

Just got me a new Creative X-fi HD external USB "card" a few weeks back to replace a 5+ year old X-fi Xtrememusic - wanted to give my video card more room to breath.

I've tried onboard and the sound is terrible compared to my sound cards for music. I could give less of a shit about sound in games, but I can tell and care mostly about my music. I also happen to have a separate receiver, sub, and bookshelves that cost >$500. This is for analog sound as I don't want to pass digital through to my receiver for some reason... Regardless, I am loving my USB external card that you can score for ~$60 in the US. It only does stereo though.

 

[PhoenixEnigma]

This is my biggest problem. Can someone point or link me to some shielded internal cabling?

This. So much this.

I've found onboard sound still varies a good deal in quality. My NF-980 is pretty good - the difference between in and my Xonar DG is lost to ambient noise in most cases. My x200s, on the other hand, sounds like there's some tin cans and string somewhere in the mix.

 

[Zap]

I have great speakers for my computer right now, I am running a Bose speaker system and I noticed a HUGE difference in the clarity and richness of the sound in movies and games when using my XF-i sound card.

Ahhh, that explains it. :whiste:

 

[tumsk]

I'd like to know how a sound card, like the SB Live, is better to record with. I'm about to do some vinyl rips and would love to see some data to back this claim up. Especially for recording 24/96 and above.

 

[Cyrus9008]

Ahhh, that explains it. :whiste:

Well Zap I mean I tested the speakers with onboard vs X-Fi and I noticed the difference. It sounded good either way because of the speakers however the 3d audio positioning in games increased 100 fold.

 

[corkyg]

I stopped using sound cards a few years ago. I find that the big difference is in the external transducers. IOW, a quality amplifier and speaker system does much more. All it needs is a pre-amplified source, and then it provides what your ears hear. In general, powered computer speakers suck from an audiophile's perspective.

 

[stahlhart]

Opinions. Everybody has one. And that's about the only thing a discussion of this topic ever leads to in this subforum (or any sort of discussion regarding audio anywhere else, for that matter).

Live and let live.

 

[mfenn]

Just got me a new Creative X-fi HD external USB "card" a few weeks back to replace a 5+ year old X-fi Xtrememusic - wanted to give my video card more room to breath.

I've tried onboard and the sound is terrible compared to my sound cards for music. I could give less of a shit about sound in games, but I can tell and care mostly about my music. I also happen to have a separate receiver, sub, and bookshelves that cost >$500. This is for analog sound as I don't want to pass digital through to my receiver for some reason... Regardless, I am loving my USB external card that you can score for ~$60 in the US. It only does stereo though.

So you do care about gaming sound quality? :whiste:

 

[RAJOD]

This is the card that many are buying now. And almost all of them notice a big improvement over onboard sound.

http://www.hardware-revolution.com/best-mainstream-gaming-pc-may-2012-geforce-gtx-670/#Sound

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16829132020

I ordered two on amazon for free shipping. Can't beat the price 23.00!

 

[bononos]

The better positional audio in Soundblaster x-fi cards is also due to some funky scout mode which makes footsteps louder. The crystalizer which makes music sound 'better' makes it worse imo.

Discrete audio cards are in the same spot as discrete network cards. The only difference is that people have come to accept that onboard nics are as good as discrete cards for gaming. One concession to needing discrete sound cards is the possibility of of a bad implementation of integrated sound on a particular model of a mb.

This is the card that many are buying now. And almost all of them notice a big improvement over onboard sound.

http://www.hardware-revolution.com/best-mainstream-gaming-pc-may-2012-geforce-gtx-670/#Sound

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16829132020

I ordered two on amazon for free shipping. Can't beat the price 23.00!

How do you know for sure that 'almost all' found a 'big improvement'?

 

[RAJOD]

The better positional audio in Soundblaster x-fi cards is also due to some funky scout mode which makes footsteps louder. The crystalizer which makes music sound 'better' makes it worse imo.

Discrete audio cards are in the same spot as discrete network cards. The only difference is that people have come to accept that onboard nics are as good as discrete cards for gaming. One concession to needing discrete sound cards is the possibility of of a bad implementation of integrated sound on a particular model of a mb.



How do you know for sure that 'almost all' found a 'big improvement'?

Reading reviews of people that purchased also some reviews from tech sites. Really not too many negatives and at 23.00 not much of a risk.

 

[D Cup]

I am in the "waiting on the last piece of hardware" stage of a new (sorta) build. I was wondering about the quality of sound on my new motherboard-Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD3H. It shows a VIA VT2021 codec -- high definition audio -- 2/4/5./7.1 channel with support for s/pdif out.
I was wondering how good is this on board sound?

I have Z-5300 speakers and a M-Audio Revolution 5.1 sound card. I have had this set up for a long time and it sounds pretty good. I installed Win 7 32 bit over Win XP and I understand there are no drivers for my card but it is working in spite of that. I would guess somehow Win 7 is using the XP drivers. There will be a new install and I have no idea it the M-Audio will work since there are no drivers for Win7. I have not yet done an extensive search but it does not look good. I guess I will be surprised if the on board is as good but I can always hook up to an unused Harmon Kardon 6.1 system and suffer (lol).

Any comments or suggestions - I do like good sound and perhaps the newer cards will satisfy my untrained ear. All my home theaters are HK with good HK speakers and woofers and I do like them. Not any sound worse than TV speakers. Heard a nice Denon system the other day - might look into that for my next system

 

[mfenn]

Windows XP and Windows 7 use very different driver and sound architectures, I doubt that your machine was somehow using the older drivers. Most likely, Windows 7 has a built-in generic drive that picks up the card.

 

[thelastjuju]

I can tell the difference between onboard analog and a midrange or better dedicated sound card, particularly with an A/B test and good headphones. But I agree that most people who care about output quality will probably run digital out to a dedicated DAC + amp.

Or they would buy a high quality sound card, and use its DAC.. amazing how few people have caught onto this concept by now. Its still as if its some best kept secret in audiophilia. Unless you have a $1,000 Marantz receiver you are outputting to, or start talking dedicated external DAC's, using a sound card and outputing ANALOG to use its DAC is your absolute best option for budget audiophile sound.. of course, assuming you have good enough speakers or headphones to take advantage of it.

Onboard sound IS getting better over time, but even still if you're used to a good sound card, onboard sound is muddy and lifeless... You are NEVER going to find the quality DAC's, DSP's, and opamps like you would find even in old school dedicated cards like the Creative Audigy 2 ZS's.. Creative's new X-Fi cards are absolute garbage! With these, they decided to cheap out on hardware, and instead load you up on artificial software nonsense, like X-Fi, the Crystillizer, EAX Emulation, etc.. you are better off picking up a used Audigy 2 off ebay for $30.. probably even over the ultra-entry-level XONAR card as well.

But nothing beats any card with the CMI8788 chipset. Period. Anyone with good speakers or headphones would be absolutely blown away by what stunning sound clarity these cards produce.. Unfortunately, newegg wants $200 for the HT Omega cards with this chipset, but if you are lucky you can pick up a used Bluegears b-inspirer or Auzentech x-meridian, which have the same chipset.. and usually sell for about $50-75 on ebay. These CMI8788 cards have the highest quality DAC you can find until you start to spend 3x-4x the amount on an Stello External DAC or something like that.

 

[weez82]

Creative's new X-Fi cards are absolute garbage! With these, they decided to cheap out on hardware, and instead load you up on artificial software nonsense, like X-Fi, the Crystillizer, EAX Emulation, etc.. you are better off picking up a used Audigy 2 off ebay for $30..

you shouldnt post false info. The only X-Fi card that doesnt have hardware EAX support is the X-Fi Xtreme Audio. The rest of the X-Fi cards still have hardware EAX support. The Titanium HD has swappable OP-amp, better dac then what you will find in "old school dedicated cards," and better headphone out put. The rest of the x-fi line is also better then "old school dedicated cards." Im not saying Creative is the best of the best cause Asus and HT Omega are also very nice. But what you typed out is just false info.

 

[thelastjuju]

you shouldnt post false info. The only X-Fi card that doesnt have hardware EAX support is the X-Fi Xtreme Audio. The rest of the X-Fi cards still have hardware EAX support. The Titanium HD has swappable OP-amp, better dac then what you will find in "old school dedicated cards," and better headphone out put. The rest of the x-fi line is also better then "old school dedicated cards." Im not saying Creative is the best of the best cause Asus and HT Omega are also very nice. But what you typed out is just false info.

Okay, so I'm taking it you OWN an X-Fi card and were offended by my post?

The X-Fi cards are garbage though, and are the worst sound cards on the market. I didn't even mention that they seem to have the most plaguing driver issues and are the most overpriced as well. They also seem to satisfy far less customers than Asus Xonars and especially HT Omegas.

The only thing Creative is best at now is marketing and promoting their stuff, with their "F4tal1ty" versions , bs like "THX certification", and marketing their cards to "gamers" who apparently think these artificial emulation effects are what sound quality is all about.

Also lets be clear. EAX is all artificial. It is a software / emulation approach that is layered over the main audio being rendered. Its basically a sound effect. It is an artificial means of "toying" with the sound being produced on otherwise very average grade hardware. If you have the high quality hardware to begin with, you don't WANT any artificial nonsense afterwards. At least I don't, and the x-fi cards seem to rely on that sort of approach to sound best.

Its artificial emulation and manipulation of sound versus the pure hardware rendering of sound that I personally prefer.

 

[weez82]

The X-Fi cards are garbage though, and are the worst sound cards on the market. I didn't even mention that they seem to have the most plaguing driver issues and are the most overpriced as well. They also seem to satisfy far less customers than Asus Xonars and especially HT Omegas.

The only thing Creative is best at now is marketing and promoting their stuff, with their "F4tal1ty" versions , bs like "THX certification", and marketing their cards to "gamers" who apparently think these artificial emulation effects are what sound quality is all about.

Also lets be clear. EAX is all artificial. It is a software / emulation approach that is layered over the main audio being rendered. Its basically a sound effect. It is an artificial means of "toying" with the sound being produced on otherwise very average grade hardware. If you have the high quality hardware to begin with, you don't WANT any artificial nonsense afterwards. At least I don't, and the x-fi cards seem to rely on that sort of approach to sound best.

Its artificial emulation and manipulation of sound versus the pure hardware rendering of sound that I personally prefer.

I dont even know why Im replying to your trollish post. Your hatred for creative is strong. And thats fine, you're free to hate whatever you want. But the info you're posting is false.

When I had the Titanium Fatal1ty Champion I had zero driver issues and had full gaming support. This was with winXP 32 and win7 64. The user feed back on that card was also positive minus the creative haters. I've also had a positive experience with their customer support. The user reviews and feed back from other forums about the Titanium HD has been extremely positive. And that card offers, like I posted above, swappable OP-amp, quality dac, excellent headphone output, and still offers full gaming support.

I dont know where you get your info but that crap you're posting is false. Creative isnt, as you put it, the worst. Far from it. Creative and Asus and HT Omega are all on the same level.

And I can find just as many people complaining about poor drives for Asus and HT Omega as you can for Creative. But oh well, haters gonna hate

Okay, so I'm taking it you OWN an X-Fi card and were offended by my post?

I dont need to own anything to be offended when people post false info like you did. What you posted is so far off base. It's just you hating just to be like the other "cool kids." I have no brand preference. I recommend Creative, Asus, and HT Omega to people based on their needs.

 

[Skiprudder]

Well for years I've been of the mindset that discrete cards simply weren't justified anymore, but after reading this thread and some reviews on other sites I found an Asus Xonar DG for $23 on Amazon ($13 after MIR) and decided for that price I'd see what I thought myself. The card arrived last night I popped it in and..

Well I've been wrong for years. The sound blew me away even on my so-so speakers. I haven't had enough time to do a lot of gaming testing yet, but music was amazing. I was listening to one of my favorites, Bernstein's final concert recording, Beethoven's 7th, and in addition to the music which sounded incredible, I could hear the occasional rustling of people in the audience during quiet moments-never even knew that was on the recording.

This is all entirely subjective of course, but at the same volume levels the music was noticeable 'richer' in sound with a lot more of the details discernible. So I think I have a new stance thanks to you all. Onboard is good enough for most folks, but a discrete card can still kick it up a notch, and it's worth it. Especially if you, like me, do a lot of listening to music on your computer.

Thanks folks! Course now I should get new speakers! =9

 

[thelastjuju]

I dont even know why Im replying to your trollish post. Your hatred for creative is strong. And thats fine, you're free to hate whatever you want. But the info you're posting is false.

When I had the Titanium Fatal1ty Champion I had zero driver issues and had full gaming support. This was with winXP 32 and win7 64. The user feed back on that card was also positive minus the creative haters. I've also had a positive experience with their customer support. The user reviews and feed back from other forums about the Titanium HD has been extremely positive. And that card offers, like I posted above, swappable OP-amp, quality dac, excellent headphone output, and still offers full gaming support.

I dont know where you get your info but that crap you're posting is false. Creative isnt, as you put it, the worst. Far from it. Creative and Asus and HT Omega are all on the same level.

And I can find just as many people complaining about poor drives for Asus and HT Omega as you can for Creative. But oh well, haters gonna hate



I dont need to own anything to be offended when people post false info like you did. What you posted is so far off base. It's just you hating just to be like the other "cool kids." I have no brand preference. I recommend Creative, Asus, and HT Omega to people based on their needs.

If I was REALLY as anti-Creative as you think I am, then why would I be so fond of Creative's older lineup of Audigy 2 cards? :sneaky: People don't just start hating on a company for NO reason..

I have a big problem with Creative's take on sound cards since the X-Fi chipset, and to me its just amazing there are still people who refuse to get off the Creative bandwagon and recognize how inferior their offerings are to their competitors. At ANY price range.

You are also now talking about the highest end X-Fi model, rather than the series as a whole in which the entry and mid end models have abysmally low ratings on newegg. Creative was able to drum up more sales than ever by marketing "f4tal1ty" versions.. good for them.. but a staggering amount of you x-fi owners will go on to output digital and render these cards useless anyway.

Something also tells me you DO know of the driver issues that exist surrounding Creative cards, because its got to be the most common complaint about these cards.. and there is no way you will be able to find the amount of driver complaints with the other offerings no matter how hard you try.

 

[cadred]

One concession to needing discrete sound cards is the possibility of of a bad implementation of integrated sound on a particular model of a mb.

Hopefully that's not the VIA VT2021. The new gigabyte Z77 mobo I just bought has one. Never used a VIA chip, last few boards have had some form of ACXX

Though most of the time I use a Digitech RP1000 floor pedal over USB as my sound card most of the time since i occasionally record with it.

I am in the "waiting on the last piece of hardware" stage of a new (sorta) build. I was wondering about the quality of sound on my new motherboard-Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD3H. It shows a VIA VT2021 codec -- high definition audio -- 2/4/5./7.1 channel with support for s/pdif out.
I was wondering how good is this on board sound?

Me Too!

 

[mikeymikec]

I went with an SBLive! Value for my first real computer build based on a recommendation. My next setup had on-board sound (nforce 2), I compared the two connected to my hi-fi and found that the on-board sound sounded better (poor treble reproduction with the SBLive compared to the on-board). Since then I've stuck with on-board sound. I've heard one or two crappy on-board sound chipsets over the years (regardless of drivers), but I'd generally trust it these days.

 

[ShintaiDK]

SBLive was also my last discrete soundcard. Never looked back since.

 

[mfenn]

I dont even know why Im replying to your trollish post. Your hatred for creative is strong. And thats fine, you're free to hate whatever you want. But the info you're posting is false.

He isn't trolling. It's well known that Creative tunes their cards to produce exaggerated highs and lows at the expense of accurate reproduction in the midrange. Lots of people perceive that sound as "better", which is fine as their own opinion, but it is most certainly not how the recording "should" sound (i.e. not accurate).

 

[mfenn]

Or they would buy a high quality sound card, and use its DAC.. amazing how few people have caught onto this concept by now. Its still as if its some best kept secret in audiophilia. Unless you have a $1,000 Marantz receiver you are outputting to, or start talking dedicated external DAC's, using a sound card and outputing ANALOG to use its DAC is your absolute best option for budget audiophile sound.. of course, assuming you have good enough speakers or headphones to take advantage of it.

That's BS, digital to analog conversion is pretty much a solved problem these days. It isn't the DAC that makes that Marantz sound good, it's the quality of the amps and the lack of EMI inside the receiver casing. Why do you think that receivers are mostly open air?

 

[Kristijonas]

I will use the opportunity of this thread being popular and ask an important question. I'm looking to buy a sound card. Budget is not important, but my choice is very limited and I need to know which card is the best..? I will be using it for music and games. Speakers: edifier r1900Tii (06 edition). My whole choice is:

ASUS Xonar DG

Creative EMU 0404

http://cache0.skelbiu.lt/pictures/s...e-x-fi-xtreme-audio-pci-express-147418642.jpg

Creative Audigy 2 ZS

M Audio Audiophile 2496

Sound Blaster Audigy SB1394