DirectX and OpenGL to get low level access according to leaked statements (GDC 2014)

[BrightCandle]

Tom Paterson in an interview published yesterday did say they would use Mantle, if Microsoft used it. Which since MS has said they wont and that they will be developing on DX instead it seems that is a no from Nvidia. Will be interesting to see what they can do with DX and openGL in this area, its going to loose a lot of backward compatibility, but at the control for the API remains the same.

 

[sontin]

Can you link to this interview?

 

[bystander36]

It will depend on a lot of different factors.

BF4 wasn't the best example to start with for sure. It wasn't coded for Mantle from the ground up (it'll probably be a year before we see any games like that) and we all know it was beset by stability issues of which fixing rightly took precedence over Mantle.

I thought BF4 Mantle support was built into the engine, the same engine all the future games plan to use.

And like I said, I just don't understand how Mantle will ever be in a game built from the ground up for Mantle, as it will always be designed to use both DX and Mantle.

In the end, the "easy" job for the biggest gains will be CPU multi-threading, but BF4 already did a remarkable job there - at least in SP.

It certainly is the most noticeable improvement now, but that might be because that is DX's biggest weakness. The other improvements in Mantle may not be enough to matter.

"PhysX like fluff" is certainly possible with Mantle and I have no doubts we'll start to see some of that. But lets say for example that AMD pays for Mantle implementation in games - if DX12 or whatever already makes a perfectly good job of CPU multi-threading, then the devs are going to be left with no alternative but do some of the GPU optimizations.

It's not like they're going to go to AMD as say "Here is your Mantle implementation - oh btw it's the exact same performance of the DX12 version but thanks for the million bucks anyway".

AMD is still learning about it as well, and they'll learn what to ask for in return for the money or GE support or whatever. Even just 2 or 3 of those GPU optimizations on the list could be 15-20% performance, which is basically guaranteed extra performance because no game should be CPU limited again...

That is my point. What if they cannot gain a lot from using Mantle, other than CPU bottleneck issues? It wouldn't be worthwhile to use anymore, if DX can fix the same issue.

All those Mantle specific features aren't going to be included into the basic features of a game, because the game will be built around DX. The only way that will change is if Mantle supports Nvidia and Intel (Nvidia at least).

 

[el etro]

There is no Mantle on consoles and never will be.

But it still compatible with all of x86 based computers environment.

So just stop it there with the BS.

Universal term doesnt apply to 18% of the PC market, and shrinking.

ShintaiDK constructive posts rate is 1/10.

 

[f1sherman]

It looks like parts of GameWorks should be available to everyone.
Nvidia calls this VisualFX, other part being notorious PhysX.

VisualFX

• Nvidia Turbulence
• Nvidia WaveWorks
• Nvidia CameraWorks (TXAA, DoF)
• Nvidia ShadowWorks (HBAO+, Advanced Shadows)
• Nvidia FlameWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia HairWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia FaceWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia GI Works (closed beta end of March)

Doing the work for everyone

When will GDC sessions be available for reviewing?

 

[f1sherman]

Anyone feeling that this latest turn of events is almost unfair

AMD is the one that started all this CTM movement, and the best they can hope now is what...
Microsoft choosing NOT to retaliate for AMD's brazenness?

As for SiliconWars idea of AMD reusing DX multithreading in Mantle codepath, making it even easier to implement the questions are:

is it going to work like that,
and... why bother?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Anyone feeling that this latest turn of events is almost unfair

AMD is the one that started all this CTM movement, and the best they can hope now is what...
Microsoft choosing NOT to retaliate for AMD's brazenness?

As for SiliconWars idea of AMD reusing DX multithreading in Mantle codepath, making it even easier to implement the questions are:

is it going to work like that,
and... why bother?

AMD didnt start it. It was already done earlier. Remember SteamOS for example with OpenGL demos in 2012? OpenGL 4.4? MS annoucne before Mantle to bring Xbox One API to PC?

Mantle was rushed out the door for the same reason.

 

[cytg111]

There is no Mantle on consoles and never will be. So just stop it there with the BS.

Universal term doesnt apply to 18% of the PC market, and shrinking.

Wow, nothing have you learned young grasshopper - of the absolutes.
Call it mantle or otherwise, as mantle is somewhat derived from console concepts you could argue that it is allready there.
Also, I think the "BS" is uncalled for.

 

[cytg111]

DirectX and OpenGL enhancements was announced and in terms of OpenGL already done way before Mantle. And the state of Mantle shows it was rushed.

"enhancements" as we have seen em for the past 8 years? Yea, kick in the butt to that.

 

[sontin]

Anyone feeling that this latest turn of events is almost unfair

AMD is the one that started all this CTM movement, and the best they can hope now is what...
Microsoft choosing NOT to retaliate for AMD's brazenness?

No, they didn't start it. There has been a push for less driver overhead since years. OpenGL 4.4 is the first result from it.

AMD's problem is that Mantle doesn't increase the market. There is no reason for a developer to use Mantle because the investment doesnt come back...

 

[el etro]

It looks like parts of GameWorks should be available to everyone.
Nvidia calls this VisualFX, other part being notorious PhysX.

VisualFX

• Nvidia Turbulence
• Nvidia WaveWorks
• Nvidia CameraWorks (TXAA, DoF)
• Nvidia ShadowWorks (HBAO+, Advanced Shadows)
• Nvidia FlameWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia HairWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia FaceWorks (closed beta end of March)
• Nvidia GI Works (closed beta end of March)

Doing the work for everyone

When will GDC sessions be available for reviewing?

Nvidia TressFX2.0 version. BTW, AMD TressFX 2.0 works on Nvidia cards too. With both AMD and Nvidia with good cards on computing front, is good deal for everyone.

There is no reason for a developer to use Mantle because the investment doesnt come back...

Physx investment goes back?

 

[cytg111]

That's the spirit!
Perfect first time or nothing I say!

YES.. and 100% market penetration on 100% of available hardware... thats just how I roll with alpha software.

- THAT OR BUST!!11

 

[Jodell88]

BTW at Steam Dev Days the same Nvidia guys did a presentation on how to radically reduce OpenGL driver overhead.

You can view the presentation here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCeNzgiJ8I&list=PLckFgM6dUP2hc4iy-IdKFtqR9TeZWMPjm

 

[cytg111]

Any idea why it has missed the first two game launches by so much?

Plenty, but they're coming out of my, you know where, so its not really constructive to the argument. Do you have any? Ideas that is?

 

[Gloomy]

Physx investment goes back?

PhysX is a full-featured physics engine that replaces whatever other physics engine they would use. It "goes back" just like licensing any other physics engine would. It saves time spent coding their own. The garbage sparkle effects are another thing entirely, that developers have the option to implement but only do so when Nvidia is involved because they get kickbacks/assistance (this part is similar to Mantle).

Ditto for GameWorks.

 

[el etro]

PhysX is a full-featured physics engine that replaces whatever other physics engine they would use. It "goes back" just like licensing any other physics engine would. It saves time spent coding their own. The garbage sparkle effects are another thing entirely, that developers have the option to implement but only do so when Nvidia is involved because they get kickbacks/assistance (this part is similar to Mantle).

My question was like a rhetoric question.

So, if Physx is good for gaming industry and GPU brand agnostic, Mantle is like it, no?
And Mantle let us the doubt that if it will run slowly or not when running in other hardware than AMD's hardware. With Physx we already know how the tech runs on other hardware, and more than this, how the tech alienates clients other than Nvdia clients.

Ditto for GameWorks.

I think too that Mantle is made with bad intentions with Nvidia, but will bring good things to us gamers without bring bad things to Nvidia gamers.
Gameworks code will come out-of-the-box in selected games and we will probably not know all the effects it truly haves in the whole game code.

 

[f1sherman]

BTW at Steam Dev Days the same Nvidia guys did a presentation on how to radically reduce OpenGL driver overhead.

You can view the presentation here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCeNzgiJ8I&list=PLckFgM6dUP2hc4iy-IdKFtqR9TeZWMPjm

GameWorks for SteamWorks
Coincidence?

Thanks for the linkie.
Now where are the GDC ones...

 

[sontin]

My question was like a rhetoric question.

So, if Physx is good for gaming industry and GPU brand agnostic, Mantle is like it, no?
And Mantle let us the doubt that if it will run slowly or not when running in other hardware than AMD's hardware. With Physx we already know how the tech runs on other hardware, and more than this, how the tech alienates clients other than Nvdia clients.

At least PhysX runs on other hardware.
And PhysX is good because it allows effects games are still lacking today.

I think too that Mantle is made with bad intentions with Nvidia, but will bring good things to us gamers without bring bad things to Nvidia gamers.
Gameworks code will come out-of-the-box in selected games and we will probably not know all the effects it truly haves in the whole game code.

Lolwut. What are you? AMD marketing guy? Mantle will hurt nVidia user because AMD partners are not allowed to implement proper DX support. No difference to Tessellation (only PN triangles is allowed) which is nearly absent in every supported game - BF4, Crysis 3, Thief 3, Sleeping Dogs, Hitman Absolution (only PN)...
And why didn't you post a link to AMD's forward+ implementation in Dirt:Showdown or the sabotage act in Tomb Raider? I mean you are right, Mantle will not hurt nVidia's userbase. Because like Tomb Raider: It wont run on their hardware. :biggrin:

 

[bystander36]

My question was like a rhetoric question.

So, if Physx is good for gaming industry and GPU brand agnostic, Mantle is like it, no?
And Mantle let us the doubt that if it will run slowly or not when running in other hardware than AMD's hardware. With Physx we already know how the tech runs on other hardware, and more than this, how the tech alienates clients other than Nvdia clients.

PhysX as a physics engine is brand agnostic and works well. Mantle is not, in any way shape or form, though in the future, there is a small chance that could change.

Mantle could be similar to GPU accelerated PhysX stuff. It would be used for added effects on AMD sponsored games.

 

[moonbogg]

So this is for GPUs in the far future, correct? Like 3 full gens from now I'd expect. Perhaps this will actually be used to good effect in 2018, and no, I'm not being a smart ass. I see this not happening any time soon, like at all.

 

[realibrad]

At least PhysX runs on other hardware.
And PhysX is good because it allows effects games are still lacking today.

Lolwut. What are you? AMD marketing guy? Mantle will hurt nVidia user because AMD partners are not allowed to implement proper DX support. No difference to Tessellation (only PN triangles is allowed) which is nearly absent in every supported game - BF4, Crysis 3, Thief 3, Sleeping Dogs, Hitman Absolution (only PN)...
And why didn't you post a link to AMD's forward+ implementation in Dirt:Showdown or the sabotage act in Tomb Raider? I mean you are right, Mantle will not hurt nVidia's userbase. Because like Tomb Raider: It wont run on their hardware. :biggrin:

Nvidia users are not "hurt" they just dont get the benefit of mantle. Saying that they get hurt is like saying that society is hurt when someone pretty is born, because not everyone is pretty.

And what do you mean AMD partners are not allowed to implement proper DX? AMD is not telling anyone what they can and can't do with DX.

 

[Gloomy]

Nvidia users are not "hurt" they just dont get the benefit of mantle. Saying that they get hurt is like saying that society is hurt when someone pretty is born, because not everyone is pretty.

And what do you mean AMD partners are not allowed to implement proper DX? AMD is not telling anyone what they can and can't do with DX.

He's talking about how most Gaming Evolved titles run like garbage on Nvidia for months after launch. If you want proof you only need to go look through Nvidia's driver updates to see how often the AMD games pop up for bugfixes and "performance improvements" (more like "more bugfixes" amirite?) that should have been there at launch.

I don't think it's sabotage necessarily, but AMD knows what they're doing. It's really noticeable recently because Gaming Evolved seems to have grown wings sometime within the last 3 years.

 

[Jodell88]

So this is for GPUs in the far future, correct? Like 3 full gens from now I'd expect. Perhaps this will actually be used to good effect in 2018, and no, I'm not being a smart ass. I see this not happening any time soon, like at all.

You can get the benefits of low driver overhead for a few months now (at least) in OpenGL.

 

[Jodell88]

He's talking about how most Gaming Evolved titles run like garbage on Nvidia for months after launch. If you want proof you only need to go look through Nvidia's driver updates to see how often the AMD games pop up for bugfixes and "performance improvements" (more like "more bugfixes" amirite?) that should have been there at launch.

I don't think it's sabotage necessarily, but AMD knows what they're doing. It's really noticeable recently because Gaming Evolved seems to have grown wings sometime within the last 3 years.

I honestly think that TressFX bogging down on Kepler is because Kepler just isn't good at compute like GCN or even Fermi.

 

[realibrad]

He's talking about how most Gaming Evolved titles run like garbage on Nvidia for months after launch. If you want proof you only need to go look through Nvidia's driver updates to see how often the AMD games pop up for bugfixes and "performance improvements" (more like "more bugfixes" amirite?) that should have been there at launch.

I don't think it's sabotage necessarily, but AMD knows what they're doing. It's really noticeable recently because Gaming Evolved seems to have grown wings sometime within the last 3 years.

So then no different when Nvidia sponsors a game?