Difference between Dell 2405 and 2407

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: JBT

Originally posted by: AWhackWhiteBoy
It will take about a day for a geek to write up the code to go content to PC and record the signal, defeating its purpose. It just looks good on paper though when the big CEOs who have no clue about the actual product see steps being made to try and protect their investments.

pretty much exactly what is happening. This type of thing always gets cracked and there is nothing that will stop HDCP from being cracked either.

...except that it's actually secure. You'll note that WMV-HD cracks haven't exactly been forthcoming, either.

How much WMV-HD content are out there?

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: JBT

Originally posted by: AWhackWhiteBoy
It will take about a day for a geek to write up the code to go content to PC and record the signal, defeating its purpose. It just looks good on paper though when the big CEOs who have no clue about the actual product see steps being made to try and protect their investments.

pretty much exactly what is happening. This type of thing always gets cracked and there is nothing that will stop HDCP from being cracked either.

...except that it's actually secure. You'll note that WMV-HD cracks haven't exactly been forthcoming, either.

How much WMV-HD content are out there?

I assume your implication here is that the protocol has only remained secure because nobody has bothered to try to break it yet. Consider that there are plenty of l337 haxx04 types out there who will try to break things like this just for the hell of it, and they haven't gotten anywhere with it yet.

Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

I don't know if you count it as a crack, but the Germans already have a device (for a few hundred Euros) that inputs HDCP DVI and outputs non-HDCP DVI.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

I don't know if you count it as a crack, but the Germans already have a device (for a few hundred Euros) that inputs HDCP DVI and outputs non-HDCP DVI.

You mean something like this? Hey, that wasn't that difficult.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

I don't know if you count it as a crack, but the Germans already have a device (for a few hundred Euros) that inputs HDCP DVI and outputs non-HDCP DVI.

You mean something like this? Hey, that wasn't that difficult.

Exactly, and i bet it can even be circumvented without additional hardware as well in the near future.

 

[larciel]

hmm, if someone makes a lock, someone else also can make a key to unlock it. i guess

 

[NeezyDeezy]

Originally posted by: larciel
hmm, if someone makes a lock, someone else also can make a key to unlock it. i guess

congratulations, you solved the matrix

 

[davet11]

Holy sweet Mary Jones, that lag problem looks annoying! This video shows it pretty nicely:

http://personal.testdata.com/CrtLcdComparo.wmv
from: http://weblogs.asp.net/ryanw/archive/2004/09/23/233681.aspx

 

[justlnluck]

Wow, I'm definitely not buying a monitor with that problem. What are the chances they will fix it in the 2407? We can only hope!

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

I don't know if you count it as a crack, but the Germans already have a device (for a few hundred Euros) that inputs HDCP DVI and outputs non-HDCP DVI.

You mean something like this? Hey, that wasn't that difficult.

I'm sure it'll stop working the moment they release commercial HDCP-protected disks. There's a blacklisting feature in the protocol that can be used to disable devices known to be hacked. From the very article you linked:

This is where key-revocation lists come into play. The third aspect of HDCP security is ?device renewability.? This is the ability for media, streaming content, or even other devices to invalidate keys known to be a problem. For instance, let?s assume that you?ve purchased a DVIMAGIC. That little device is sitting between your cable box and your television. Everything is going fine. Then, one day, you wake up to discover that your television is no longer working with all the channels. What happened? Your cable box just used System Renewability Messages (SRMs) to invalidate the keys used by your DVIMAGIC. From that point on, your cable box will treat your DVIMAGIC as a rogue device. As such, it will not allow it to pass AKE.

Will your DVIMAGIC work with a HD-DVD player? That depends: what discs have you tried to play? Revocation lists are encoded onto the DVDs. The newer the disc is, the larger the revocation list will be, and, once you?re ?caught,? that playback device should never pass AKE.

 

[xtknight]

Wouldn't the DVIMAGIC device detect the key (thus it would invulernable to that)? There's not just a key hard-coded in DVIMAGIC that everything today uses right? It uses the same Silicon Image chip as everything else so I'm not sure what would prevent DVIMAGIC from working.

 

[larciel]

Originally posted by: davet11
Holy sweet Mary Jones, that lag problem looks annoying! This video shows it pretty nicely:

http://personal.testdata.com/CrtLcdComparo.wmv
from: http://weblogs.asp.net/ryanw/archive/2004/09/23/233681.aspx

question is, is that LCD in the test dell 2405? . it is 2001fp hmm

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Basically, the people saying "eh, don't worry, it'll be cracked in a week" are likely to be in for a rude awakening with HDCP, at least IMO. Without inside information being leaked, it will be *extremely* difficult to get anywhere with it.

I don't know if you count it as a crack, but the Germans already have a device (for a few hundred Euros) that inputs HDCP DVI and outputs non-HDCP DVI.

You mean something like this? Hey, that wasn't that difficult.

I'm sure it'll stop working the moment they release commercial HDCP-protected disks. There's a blacklisting feature in the protocol that can be used to disable devices known to be hacked. From the very article you linked:

This is where key-revocation lists come into play. The third aspect of HDCP security is ?device renewability.? This is the ability for media, streaming content, or even other devices to invalidate keys known to be a problem. For instance, let?s assume that you?ve purchased a DVIMAGIC. That little device is sitting between your cable box and your television. Everything is going fine. Then, one day, you wake up to discover that your television is no longer working with all the channels. What happened? Your cable box just used System Renewability Messages (SRMs) to invalidate the keys used by your DVIMAGIC. From that point on, your cable box will treat your DVIMAGIC as a rogue device. As such, it will not allow it to pass AKE.

Will your DVIMAGIC work with a HD-DVD player? That depends: what discs have you tried to play? Revocation lists are encoded onto the DVDs. The newer the disc is, the larger the revocation list will be, and, once you?re ?caught,? that playback device should never pass AKE.

Ahh, but you missed this part:

For a ?hack,? this might be annoying. However, what happens when legitimate keys are ?in the wild?? For instance, let?s assume for a second that a large plasma-television company was the victim of a break-in/angry employee/etc. The result is that said company?s keys have landed in the hands of a DVIMAGIC-type dongle maker. When that dongle-maker is caught, will the powers-that-be revoke its keys knowing that, in doing so, there will be legitimate customers caught in the crossfire?

I'd like to see what the backlash will be when they try and revoke a valid key.

I think it is funny how the MPAA is trying to hold on to something so hard that it just slips through their fingers.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Wouldn't the DVIMAGIC device detect the key (thus it would invulernable to that)? There's not just a key hard-coded in DVIMAGIC that everything today uses right? It uses the same Silicon Image chip as everything else so I'm not sure what would prevent DVIMAGIC from working.

Every HDCP-compliant device has an unchangeable unique identifier. At least they're supposed to, and I really doubt they would license any device (especially one like this) that didn't meet this part of the spec.

 

[xtknight]

So the DVIMAGIC only works with TVs from one company?

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Ahh, but you missed this part:

For a ?hack,? this might be annoying. However, what happens when legitimate keys are ?in the wild?? For instance, let?s assume for a second that a large plasma-television company was the victim of a break-in/angry employee/etc. The result is that said company?s keys have landed in the hands of a DVIMAGIC-type dongle maker. When that dongle-maker is caught, will the powers-that-be revoke its keys knowing that, in doing so, there will be legitimate customers caught in the crossfire?

I'd like to see what the backlash will be when they try and revoke a valid key.

That's an interesting question. If it comes to a head with an expensive and/or popular device, I'm not sure what the response will be. If it's possible to fix the device by, say, updating its firmware, they'd probably disable them and force you to get it upgraded. If it can't really be fixed... hard to say.

I think it is funny how the MPAA is trying to hold on to something so hard that it just slips through their fingers.

We'll have to see how much slips through. I suspect a lot of people will be in for a very rude awakening when you suddenly can't get around their DRM trivially.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: xtknight
So the DVIMAGIC only works with TVs from one company?

Uh... what? No.

Part of the protocol allows an HDCP-compatible player to identify what kind of display (or DVR or whatever) it is hooked up to. If the identifier of the playback/recording device is marked as being blacklisted, it won't output the content to that device.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: xtknight
So the DVIMAGIC only works with TVs from one company?

Uh... what? No.

Part of the protocol allows an HDCP-compatible player to identify what kind of display (or DVR or whatever) it is hooked up to. If the identifier of the playback/recording device is marked as being blacklisted, it won't output the content to that device.

Oh, I see. My misunderstanding. I don't know what you mean by this though.

Every HDCP-compliant device has an unchangeable unique identifier. At least they're supposed to, and I really doubt they would license any device (especially one like this) that didn't meet this part of the spec.

What does this unique identifier do? This is different from the key? Is it like a MAC address, and the key is like WEP?

Still kind of confused on this. Like JackBurton said, this would be a disaster if the TVs were already being sold with this unique key in them, and that key got blacklisted because DVIMAGIC used it. Then again, the MPAA/RIAA could care less about customers. As long as the TV works, another device can potentially work.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Ahh, but you missed this part:

For a ?hack,? this might be annoying. However, what happens when legitimate keys are ?in the wild?? For instance, let?s assume for a second that a large plasma-television company was the victim of a break-in/angry employee/etc. The result is that said company?s keys have landed in the hands of a DVIMAGIC-type dongle maker. When that dongle-maker is caught, will the powers-that-be revoke its keys knowing that, in doing so, there will be legitimate customers caught in the crossfire?

I'd like to see what the backlash will be when they try and revoke a valid key.

That's an interesting question. If it comes to a head with an expensive and/or popular device, I'm not sure what the response will be. If it's possible to fix the device by, say, updating its firmware, they'd probably disable them and force you to get it upgraded. If it can't really be fixed... hard to say.

I think it is funny how the MPAA is trying to hold on to something so hard that it just slips through their fingers.

We'll have to see how much slips through. I suspect a lot of people will be in for a very rude awakening when you suddenly can't get around their DRM trivially.

We'll see.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: xtknight
What does this unique identifier do? This is different from the key? Is it like a MAC address, and the key is like WEP?

They're not real keen on telling everyone exactly how the protcol works, but it appears that there is some sort of public/private-key encryption going on, and possibly the public key is used as the device identifier (so each model of display/recording device has its own key). I'm not sure if there is a separate 'Device ID' or whatever embedded in the device. However it works, part of the protocol allows the player to tell what it is hooked up to in a secure manner (so it is difficult or impossible for a device to lie about its identity).

Still kind of confused on this. Like JackBurton said, this would be a disaster if the TVs were already being sold with this unique key in them, and that key got blacklisted because DVIMAGIC used it. Then again, the MPAA/RIAA could care less about customers. As long as the TV works, another device can potentially work.

AFAIK, the DVIMAGIC device has its own key. The stuff about someone replicating another device's key is just theoretical for now.

 

[justlnluck]

So, is there a chance Dell will fix the lag issue with the 2407? What panel does the 21" Gateway have? Is it LG? Maybe the Gateway doesn't have lag?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: JBT

Originally posted by: AWhackWhiteBoy
It will take about a day for a geek to write up the code to go content to PC and record the signal, defeating its purpose. It just looks good on paper though when the big CEOs who have no clue about the actual product see steps being made to try and protect their investments.

pretty much exactly what is happening. This type of thing always gets cracked and there is nothing that will stop HDCP from being cracked either.

...except that it's actually secure. You'll note that WMV-HD cracks haven't exactly been forthcoming, either.

I still dont understand why content providers insist that the encryption be done between the display and pc.

Because if you don't have end-to-end encryption it's pretty trivial to capture the signal at the display end. You can get capture devices for unencrypted HD content; they're just too expensive for normal consumers.

What stopping a "rogue driver" from simulating this encryption anyway?

...and what's it going to do with the encrypted stream once it has it? Even if you can trick the Blu-Ray drive (or whatever device) into giving you the content, you have to understand the protocol (which isn't public) and have the encryption key (which is itself encrypted in a proprietary fashion) to actually access the content.

At some point the key has to be sent to the display so it can decode it.

Traditional ripping techniques would work fine if you had the encryption key with new software written for the purpose.

 

[AMD is Popeye]

My home entertainment center pc with more than enough power to do just about it all fast at this time.

DC 4800 oc 2.4@2.7 liquid cooled
2GB PC3200 XLL 2.5-2-2-1t stock
EVGA 7800GTX KO stock 490/1305 instead 430/1200
Audigy 2 ZS PLT PRO with external hub
2 hd SATA2 500GB Deskstar+ATA133 200GB Maxtor 10
Nec 3520 16x-+ dvdR Sony CRX 230 52x32x52 cdrw
Logitech Z5500 505 watton THX monster optical cables.

Large use is as home entertainment center kinda like a all in one for me.

I took the TV,VCR,DVD,PS2,Multi Format DVD player all in bedroom to do this.

Soon I get Sirius radio or one of the many to pick from and stereo gos in bedroom.

I already spoke to direct tv and they looked up LCD and videocar and said I have more than enough ways to hook upthe direct tv easy on it.

I buy alot of dvds of movies and tv show by the season.

I encode all movies to dual layer or 4.3GB DVD R.

Before DVD was out I did cd version of encodes 1500-2100MB (2-3 cds of 700mb each

As for the tv shows I encode each one dow to 225MB each since a 30min show minus ads is 21-23 mins so 225MB per tv shows is very good.

I use DVD SHRINK/DECRYPTER to do encodes now

Then I Put a version of the copy of the movie or tv shows on the hard HD

Mass downloader

I also fold at home with the seti program

I am also a big time first person shooters the newest/latest out.
I dont see no more smearing or even ghosting any more than my sweet 21in Sony CRT and you have to look hard because all games are crisp, clean, colorfull, and sharp.

No lag here in games or movies and encodes and text are tighter than most LCDs I have seen.


Main reason they maybe lag is they have a videocard thats too weak to

Handle size and native res same time, then laggier when gaming.

This is one of the best 24in LCD WS around and I can say for a fact its not the monitor. If your lagging it a videocard or conflict of parts or setup wrong some how.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
At some point the key has to be sent to the display so it can decode it.

Traditional ripping techniques would work fine if you had the encryption key with new software written for the purpose.

But you can't capture the key by eavesdropping, since it is never transmitted in the clear. Part of the protocol itself is encrypted in a proprietary way, and there's no easy way to break it without inside knowledge about the protocol.