Diet advice - am I eating too little?

[z1ggy]

I'm also going to really look into reducing my carb intake - I think with less carbs, I'd get into ketosis a lot quicker. All of the carbs I've been eating probably mean I have large glycogen stores.

Don't do this. Having a large store is totally fine if you are using it up via activity. If you lower carbs, you'll feel crappy and recover poorly, unless you honestly think you could stay keto for 6/7 days of the week.

I've heard of some people (Mark Bell) who advocate the keto life style, but personally I don't see the advantages. You can be plenty lean and still consume a decent amount of carbs. I honestly haven't done much research into putting body in keto for weight loss or health reasons, but I know for a person who's very active and needs that glycogen, it's probably not the best thing.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Don't do this. Having a large store is totally fine if you are using it up via activity. If you lower carbs, you'll feel crappy and recover poorly, unless you honestly think you could stay keto for 6/7 days of the week.

I've heard of some people (Mark Bell) who advocate the keto life style, but personally I don't see the advantages. You can be plenty lean and still consume a decent amount of carbs. I honestly haven't done much research into putting body in keto for weight loss or health reasons, but I know for a person who's very active and needs that glycogen, it's probably not the best thing.

The problem for me is that it is difficult for me to predict in advance when I'm going to be active. I don't want to consume excess carbs if I can't guarantee I'm going to use them.

Besides which, a lot of intermittent fasting advocates actually recommend exercising on an empty stomach, by which time your glycogen stores will be mostly depleted.

The guidelines I'm using to construct my eating plan are:
Relatively easy to prepare
More protein
More veggies
Include some vinegar
No bread, probably no breakfast cereal either
Will probably have to think about fats - not much of it there although peanut butter has a lot of fat, and I eat a lot of that (mix it with yogurt at the moment).

It will probably contain yogurt for diary, since I won't be consuming nearly as much milk as I do now.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, I think it will take a while to adapt. I think its mental and physical adaptation that I need - I'm so used to eating every few hours. I've never been more than say 4 hours away from food (when awake).

I've been doing glucose tests every year for the past few years, and they've always been fine. But I'm still curious whether I could have developed insulin resistance just by having my body constantly producing insulin.

I tracked my blood sugar for about a month using a diabetic test tool, no changes for me just eating once a day. Actually discovered I have kinda low blood sugar, which is what kicked me into the multiple small meals a day. But I found it was either all or nothing...I do well on 6 meals a day because of hypoglycemia, and I do well only eating once a day, but 3 meals a day is no fun for my body (zzzz). It's kind of like throwing rocks into a pond...if you keep doing it, you keep the waves going, or you only do it once & you're done, but only doing it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner was too far of a stretch because then I'd need food again in between meals or I'd zonk out.

What has been really nice is simply mapping out how my body operates. How I feel during the day is now completely controlled by my decisions, so if I'm feeling exhausted, I know exactly why I'm feeling that way. I've also found that the low blood sugar is partly managed by sleep...I do better going to bed early & getting 7 or 8 hours of sleep, it makes eating once a day a piece of cake rather than a stretch.

 

[Kaido]

What did they fix?

I had crazy food allergies (no grains & no dairy), turned out to be a stomach issue called SIBO. I felt like crap for like twenty years, took an antibiotic for 2 weeks, and I've been eating donuts ever since :biggrin:

 

[z1ggy]

The problem for me is that it is difficult for me to predict in advance when I'm going to be active. I don't want to consume excess carbs if I can't guarantee I'm going to use them.

Besides which, a lot of intermittent fasting advocates actually recommend exercising on an empty stomach, by which time your glycogen stores will be mostly depleted.

The guidelines I'm using to construct my eating plan are:
Relatively easy to prepare
More protein
More veggies
Include some vinegar
No bread, probably no breakfast cereal either
Will probably have to think about fats - not much of it there although peanut butter has a lot of fat, and I eat a lot of that (mix it with yogurt at the moment).

It will probably contain yogurt for diary, since I won't be consuming nearly as much milk as I do now.

If you are in a calorie deficit, it doesn't matter, you won't be gaining fat.

Yes but that totally depends on your life style and when you work out. If you don't work out until 6pm at night, most of the popular IF diets have you eating at least 1 meal before a work out. The only fasted work out meal plans I've seen, are when you work out first thing in the morning, or up to early afternoon. Even then you aren't 100% on an empty stomach. You should have some amino acids and water, and even a black coffee.

Your diet is 100% up to you. Like I said, the only real thing that matters is calories in vs calories out. What makes up those calories will ultimately determine body composition in the long term. I've had no trouble loosing weight while eating about 250g of carbs a day, which included pasta, bread and various other "bad" carbs.

 

[Ancalagon44]

If you are in a calorie deficit, it doesn't matter, you won't be gaining fat.

Yes but that totally depends on your life style and when you work out. If you don't work out until 6pm at night, most of the popular IF diets have you eating at least 1 meal before a work out. The only fasted work out meal plans I've seen, are when you work out first thing in the morning, or up to early afternoon. Even then you aren't 100% on an empty stomach. You should have some amino acids and water, and even a black coffee.

Your diet is 100% up to you. Like I said, the only real thing that matters is calories in vs calories out. What makes up those calories will ultimately determine body composition in the long term. I've had no trouble loosing weight while eating about 250g of carbs a day, which included pasta, bread and various other "bad" carbs.

Read that intensive dietary management site - the whole calories in vs calories out theory is unfortunately completely incorrect.

There is a lot of scientific evidence to disprove it - double blind studies and the like. Many, many, many. When you reduce your calorie intake (but keep the number of meals constant), your body adjusts its metabolism to match.

 

[Kaido]

The problem for me is that it is difficult for me to predict in advance when I'm going to be active. I don't want to consume excess carbs if I can't guarantee I'm going to use them.

Besides which, a lot of intermittent fasting advocates actually recommend exercising on an empty stomach, by which time your glycogen stores will be mostly depleted.

The guidelines I'm using to construct my eating plan are:
Relatively easy to prepare
More protein
More veggies
Include some vinegar
No bread, probably no breakfast cereal either
Will probably have to think about fats - not much of it there although peanut butter has a lot of fat, and I eat a lot of that (mix it with yogurt at the moment).

It will probably contain yogurt for diary, since I won't be consuming nearly as much milk as I do now.

If you're looking for easy, buy an Instant Pot:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2442549

It's been the best thing ever for meal prep. It's an electric pressure cooker. Basically a fast version of a crockpot. Does everything - shredded chicken, brown rice, etc. Just dump it in, hit the button, and enjoy food 45 minutes later automatically. We have a good discussion thread on make-ahead meals & freezing DIY TV dinner trays over here if you want to cook in bulk:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2336038

Anytime I have leftovers, I just chuck them in my TV dinner trays & throw it in the freezer. Gives me some variety for microwaved lunches :thumbsup:

 

[SP33Demon]

If you're looking for easy, buy an Instant Pot:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2442549

It's been the best thing ever for meal prep. It's an electric pressure cooker. Basically a fast version of a crockpot. Does everything - shredded chicken, brown rice, etc. Just dump it in, hit the button, and enjoy food 45 minutes later automatically. We have a good discussion thread on make-ahead meals & freezing DIY TV dinner trays over here if you want to cook in bulk:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2336038

Anytime I have leftovers, I just chuck them in my TV dinner trays & throw it in the freezer. Gives me some variety for microwaved lunches :thumbsup:

I've been meaning to get one of those. Do you recommend the 6 in 1 or 7 in 1?

 

[Ancalagon44]

If you're looking for easy, buy an Instant Pot:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2442549

It's been the best thing ever for meal prep. It's an electric pressure cooker. Basically a fast version of a crockpot. Does everything - shredded chicken, brown rice, etc. Just dump it in, hit the button, and enjoy food 45 minutes later automatically. We have a good discussion thread on make-ahead meals & freezing DIY TV dinner trays over here if you want to cook in bulk:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2336038

Anytime I have leftovers, I just chuck them in my TV dinner trays & throw it in the freezer. Gives me some variety for microwaved lunches :thumbsup:

Thanks, looks interesting. I do have a pressure cooker but not an electric one, its a stovetop one.

I used it to make beans last weekend - no presoaking. Just cooked them straight with about 2 liters of water, turned out great.

 

[z1ggy]

Read that intensive dietary management site - the whole calories in vs calories out theory is unfortunately completely incorrect.

There is a lot of scientific evidence to disprove it - double blind studies and the like. Many, many, many. When you reduce your calorie intake (but keep the number of meals constant), your body adjusts its metabolism to match.

I'm aware.... which is why you have to continue to lower cals or increase activity over time. And it's not really a theory in my opinion... if you eat less "energy" than your body consumed, you lose weight. The energy need is of course regulated by metabolism. Being catabolic for long periods of time will slow down this rate to try and off set your lower in take of food. That's why I only plan on cutting for 2-3 months at a time from now on, while sloooowly bulking up (+50 or 100 cals extra per day).

 

[Ancalagon44]

I'm aware.... which is why you have to continue to lower cals or increase activity over time. And it's not really a theory in my opinion... if you eat less "energy" than your body consumed, you lose weight. The energy need is of course regulated by metabolism. Being catabolic for long periods of time will slow down this rate to try and off set your lower in take of food. That's why I only plan on cutting for 2-3 months at a time from now on, while sloooowly bulking up (+50 or 100 cals extra per day).

It is a theory and its disproven by research. Its not as simple as calories in - calories out = weight gain or loss. Its much more complicated than that.

If you cut your calorie intake, your body adjusts calorie out to match.

 

[Kaido]

I've been meaning to get one of those. Do you recommend the 6 in 1 or 7 in 1?

My current recommendation is the 7-in-1 Instant Pot 6-quart model for $133:

http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Pot-IP-DUO60-Programmable-Generation/dp/B00FLYWNYQ/

Instant Pot has a good reputation (especially with safety), the 7-in-1 unit has a good amount of features, and the larger 6-quart size can handle more stuff (large quantity) better (like fall-off-the-bone ribs). First recipe I've been recommending to try out lately is the Kalua pig:

http://nomnompaleo.com/post/111934821818/pressure-cooker-kalua-pig

Just follow it exactly as outlined (bacon & all). If you're a foodie, pick up the salt (it's quite tasty), otherwise Kosher salt or whatever you have works fine. Stupid easy to use & it actually made me like cabbage haha.

 

[Kaido]

Thanks, looks interesting. I do have a pressure cooker but not an electric one, its a stovetop one.

I used it to make beans last weekend - no presoaking. Just cooked them straight with about 2 liters of water, turned out great.

OK, you're ahead of the game then. The electric one just adds some extra convenience since you don't have to babysit it on the stove...it automatically kicks over to the Keep Warm mode when it's done cooking.

 

[SP33Demon]

My current recommendation is the 7-in-1 Instant Pot 6-quart model for $133:

http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Pot-IP-DUO60-Programmable-Generation/dp/B00FLYWNYQ/

Instant Pot has a good reputation (especially with safety), the 7-in-1 unit has a good amount of features, and the larger 6-quart size can handle more stuff (large quantity) better (like fall-off-the-bone ribs). First recipe I've been recommending to try out lately is the Kalua pig:

http://nomnompaleo.com/post/111934821818/pressure-cooker-kalua-pig

Just follow it exactly as outlined (bacon & all). If you're a foodie, pick up the salt (it's quite tasty), otherwise Kosher salt or whatever you have works fine. Stupid easy to use & it actually made me like cabbage haha.

Thanks brother. Had my eye on that for a long time. Can't wait to try it, we just bought a new house with a huge kitchen so this is going on my new counter in place of the beloved Aroma rice cooker.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I've decided I'm going to use my pressure cooker to make pork and beans next week. At least, my version of it. I plan to use pork shoulder, and then shred the pork when it is tender enough.

I've skipped 5 meals since Tuesday. Skipped 2 meals on Tuesday, 1 meal yesterday, and 2 today.

I think I'm getting more used to it - I think my brain is getting used to there not being glucose constantly available. Within the first day I lost something like 6 pounds - obviously due to water weight.

Whats interesting to me is how I react if I even skip one meal - breakfast. My body doesn't like it, but its such a deeply ingrained habit for me. Think it will take a while to get used to. I mean, in theory, my body has no idea if I plan to skip breakfast and then consume 3000 calories at lunch.

 

[Kaido]

Thanks brother. Had my eye on that for a long time. Can't wait to try it, we just bought a new house with a huge kitchen so this is going on my new counter in place of the beloved Aroma rice cooker.

Yeah I'm planning on 3 total actually...sounds crazy, but then I could get rid of my electric steamer & crockpots, and do a full dinner + tons of leftovers automatically. Main one for meat, second one for rice/potatoes/sweet potatoes, and third one for veggies. You can even cook a spaghetti squash in these suckers! Plus make yogurt & all kinds of other good stuff. They're a little intimidating to get into since I don't really know anyone who uses them, so it's all trial & error by using online recipes, but so far stuff has been coming out great!

Probably the biggest issue is getting over the idea that a good meal has to be complex & take a long time. Most of the time I just dump the ingredients in, hit the button, and I'm ready to eat. The Kalua pig is the longest recipe (90 minutes), which means if I get home at 4pm, then dinner is ready (automatically!) at 5:30pm, which is pretty awesome! More time for neffing :thumbsup:

 

[Ancalagon44]

An update if anyone is interested.

I now fast everyday, skipping breakfast and lunch and eating supper only. I probably eat more at night than I used to, but it would still be a reduction over what I used to eat. I fast for 20 hours and then eat within a 4 hour period. I didn't fast this past weekend and I don't think I will fast over the weekend. I'm thinking about fasting for more than 24 hours.

I can cope with it a lot better now. I don't feel dizzy anymore. I get hungry, but not constantly. I find it interesting to think about - for the past 30 years, I've been eating 3 meals a day because that was what I believed I needed. Now I realize I can survive on a lot less.

I don't think I've lost any weight surprisingly enough.

I even lifted weights while fasted on Monday night without any problems.

 

[Kaido]

An update if anyone is interested.

I now fast everyday, skipping breakfast and lunch and eating supper only. I probably eat more at night than I used to, but it would still be a reduction over what I used to eat. I fast for 20 hours and then eat within a 4 hour period. I didn't fast this past weekend and I don't think I will fast over the weekend. I'm thinking about fasting for more than 24 hours.

I can cope with it a lot better now. I don't feel dizzy anymore. I get hungry, but not constantly. I find it interesting to think about - for the past 30 years, I've been eating 3 meals a day because that was what I believed I needed. Now I realize I can survive on a lot less.

I don't think I've lost any weight surprisingly enough.

I even lifted weights while fasted on Monday night without any problems.

Yeah, it's funny when you start questioning things in life, like - who invented 3 meals? Why? I mean, *I* definitely need to eat more than that, at least snacks inbetween meals, and pretty much everybody I know is the same way - and guessing by the sheer number of vending machines everywhere, I'd say it's pretty common. And personally, big meals make me sleepy, so I can keep my energy up better with smaller split meals. Or you can train your body to adjust to one big meal. It's partly physical (mainly spending a few weeks stretching out your stomach to handle the larger quantity of food in at one time), but really it's mostly mental...we're programmed with our habits & changing those habits is weird.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Another interesting fact I discovered yesterday, which may explain why my weightloss on a calorie restricted diet wasn't what I expected it to be.

So I mentioned in my first post (in this thread) that I eat a lot of peanut butter. I used to eat a lot of peanut butter sandwiches and would also mix peanut butter into yogurt. I estimated the amount of peanut butter I was using in each sandwich and with yogurt as about 10g to 15g.

Wrong.

I took what was a normal spoon of peanut butter for me and weighed it. It was 60g. This was for yogurt by the way. With a peanut butter sandwich, I was probably using 40g to 60g of peanut butter. I just didn't notice. Because peanut butter is so calorie dense, I would have been eating a few hundred more calories than I thought I was.

Technical details: I put an empty spoon of the same kind onto the scale and then adjusted it until the scale read 0. Then, I removed the empty spoon and put the laden spoon on.

Yeah I think it is both physical and mental as you say. I think if you said to me 2 weeks ago that I should consider skipping breakfast, I would have told you it was a very important meal blah blah blah. Interestingly, if you had asked me what research supports that position, I think I would have stumbled! I just never thought about it.

I won't lie, I do love food so its not that easy for me. I love cooking and I love all the unhealthy things. But what I like about losing weight this way is that it gives me the opportunity to do things like pig out on pizza and not feel guilty. I mean, I'm skipping two meals a day anyway, what does it matter if I eat an entire pizza (not every day of course).

Long term I realize that when I have lost the fat I want to lose, I'm going to have to increase how much I eat again to avoid losing muscle.

 

[Joepublic2]

I'm giving fasting a try. The more I start to read up on it - insulin response, etc etc - the more it makes sense. Want to lose weight? Simple - just don't eat.

This craters most peoples metabolism and causes them to burn muscle (good mass). I wouldn't recommend going below 1500 kcals a day on any kind of diet unless you're a tiny old lady or missing some limbs or something. Personally, when I'm cutting, I'll eat 2 600-700 calorie meals a day (skipping lunch, it's the least important meal IMO) with as much protein and fiber as I can reasonably work in and maybe a small snack of 100-200 calories if I'm ravenous.

edit: maybe the fasting isn't that bad but i'd still eat a small amount of protein just to maintain a positive nitrogen balance, personally.

 

[Ancalagon44]

This craters most peoples metabolism and causes them to burn muscle (good mass). I wouldn't recommend going below 1500 kcals a day on any kind of diet unless you're a tiny old lady or missing some limbs or something. Personally, when I'm cutting, I'll eat 2 600-700 calorie meals a day (skipping lunch, it's the least important meal IMO) with as much protein and fiber as I can reasonably work in and maybe a small snack of 100-200 calories if I'm ravenous.

edit: maybe the fasting isn't that bad but i'd still eat a small amount of protein just to maintain a positive nitrogen balance, personally.

Read the research.

You believe a lot of things about fasting, but you don't have any research to support them.

Even look at wikipedia

Specifically, the body burns fat after first exhausting the contents of the digestive tract along with glycogen reserves stored in muscle and liver cells. After prolonged periods of starvation, the body will utilize the proteins within muscle tissue as a fuel source.

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about starvation. Starvation would require me to not eat for at least 2 weeks.

When the glycogen reserve is depleted, glucose can be obtained from the breakdown of fats from adipose tissue. Fats are broken down into glycerol and free fatty acids, with the glycerol being utilized in the liver as a substrate for gluconeogenesis.
When even the glycerol reserves are depleted, or sooner, the liver will start producing ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are short-chain derivatives of fatty acids, which, since they are capable of crossing the blood–brain barrier, can be used by the brain as an alternative metabolic fuel. Fatty acids can be used directly as an energy source by most tissues in the body.

After the exhaustion of the glycogen reserve, and for the next 2–3 days, fatty acids are the principal metabolic fuel. At first, the brain continues to use glucose, because, if a non-brain tissue is using fatty acids as its metabolic fuel, the use of glucose in the same tissue is switched off. Thus, when fatty acids are being broken down for energy, all of the remaining glucose is made available for use by the brain.
After 2 or 3 days of fasting, the liver begins to synthesize ketone bodies from precursors obtained from fatty acid breakdown.

The human starvation response is unique among animals in that human brains do not require the ingestion of glucose to function. During starvation, less than half the energy used by the brain comes from metabolized glucose. Because the human brain can use ketone bodies as major fuel sources, the body is not forced to break down skeletal muscles at a high rate, thereby maintaining both cognitive function and mobility for up to several weeks. This response is extremely important in human evolution and allowed for humans to continue to find food effectively even in the face of prolonged starvation.

Note this last one especially.

Why do people believe muscle is broken down first, despite massive evidence to the contrary?

Incidentally, I do eat a little bit every day - probably around 1000 calories worth, mostly protein, veggies, fruit, a little bit of peanut butter and a little bit of yogurt. I take supplements for calcium, magnesium, vitamin D3, omega 3 fish liver oil and a fiber supplement.