Didn't 9/11 teach us anything?

[digiram]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: dgevert
"Don't forget 9/11" he says.

WTF does 9/11 have to do with the war in Iraq? NOTHING! Iraq had NOTHING to do with it. Hussein had NOTHING to do with it.

I'm sick of hearing this claim.

And we are sick of listening to crap like that.

Obviously Saddam did have a part in there. Have you ever wondered why the White House does not release every single bit of intelligence out to the American People. We had our reasons. You are putting Hussein up on a pedestal here, do you think he is a good guy or something. What about the genocide on those Kurds. What about the Terrorists he was hardboring. What about the invasion of Kuat... no we made the right moves.

-Kevin

"Hardboring"? Sounds very painful. I don't think terrorists would like to be hardbored.

Anyway, I recommend you read the 9/11 Commission Report which shows that there was no collaborative relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. I also recommend you search the various threads up here where this topic has been beaten to death over and over and over and no matter how many times you may say, it doesn't make it true.

Oh, btw, the invasion of Kuwait? Do some research into the satellite photos the US used to justify going to war. The photos were faked.

actually it has been confirmed there was al qaeda in Iraq before the war by USA. zarqawi has been there for a long time.

You don't read the truth much, do you?

Zarqawi was in a camp in northern Iraq, in Kurdish-controlled terrority, protected by the U.S. No-Fly Zone. Hmmm...

BTW, did you know Bush had three opportunities to get Zarqawi and passed them all up? Hmm...wonder why? You don't think he wanted to invade Iraq no matter what, do you? Naaaah...

Clinton passed on Bin Laden 4 times...

hah, good mention.

How about America, durring the reagan admin, funded Bin Laden and the Taliban. Not to mention supported Saddam in the Iraq/Iran war, and didn't give a rats as$ about the kurds until they can use the astrocity to support their current illegal campaign in Iraq.

 

[imported_Condor]

History says that they have never accepted any religion but theirs and believe that it is proper to enslave or destroy the non-believers.

[/quote]

INVESTIGATE THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY PLEASE.[/quote]

The history of Christianity does include the same sort of atrocities. In particular, Catholicism. There seems to be a curve to the maturity of a religion that includes the cruelty and warring part. No doubt of that. Christianity has, by and large, matured beyond that curve. Islam seems to have gotten stuck in it. I don't think the Vatican has attacked anyone in the last century. Every church I have ever attended seemed to think that all other churches were bastions of evil, but it was only verbage, they didn't take arms and try to conquer the world. Methodist don't truly trust Baptist, neither like Catholics much. They all go on picnics and live peacefully with their neighbors.

 

[imported_Condor]

I'm not saying Clinton was perfect. He could have pressured the CIA and the Pentagon to do more and should have really pressured Saudi Arabia and Iran. He didn't. But, to say he did nothing is dishonest.[/quote]

While what you say is true in that he didn't quite do nothing, he did make us look slow and weak. That perception encouraged 9/11.

 

[raildogg]

muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

 

[Stunt]

Oh i thought of something else that 9/11 taught us...

That in the US's time of need people from around the world came together as a united people ready to take on terrorism. There was so much commitment that the world supported the US in Afganistan.

Just goes to show you with the right man or wrong man ...that you can throw all that out the window in one spectacular conquest.

 

[Locut0s]

The worst thing that Bush has done, and this is going to sound strange at first, is to actually oversell 9/11. 9/11 was a horrible tragedy that no one should deny, however bush and co. have pushed it as a semi apocalyptic world rending event, something on the scale of 3 or 4 nuclear bombs going off. The truth is that put into the perspective of other terrible acts of man kind 9/11 is one among many and by no means the worst. That doesn't mean nothing should be done about it or that we shouldn't look for a solution. But it does mean that it should not have cause people to hand the government "carte blanche" out of fear, and it certainly shouldn't mean that they should have it for so long.

 

[imported_Condor]

Also people are crying and whining about detaining so many people after 9/11, well maybe they are in detention because they are suspected of aiding terrorists??

"Suspected" being the key. And held, in some cases, without access to an attorney. Does that strike you as Constitutional?[/quote]

Since they are people who have never taken an oath to support our constitution, they cannot expect our constitution to support them.

 

[raildogg]

the people we are supporting in Iraq will create a Islamist Republic, although democratic. really sad, but what choice we have?

this is war between believers and non-believers according to the gazi, or people who live in a world who see the west and other non muslims as their enemy

 

[imported_Condor]

very right, Bush has failed us in terms of securing the ports. Over 90% of containers in the ports arent examined. A radical muslim extremist could easily slip radioactive material in there or even a small nuke. Thats a big letdown.

Our borders are still very porous, but I think the Canadian border is less secure than the Mexican border. As its much longer and there is really some bad terrain there. Thousands of mexicans sneak accross the border on a daily basis, so a terrorist can easily slip through.[/quote]

I think our borders will always be porous, too much mileage to seal completely. How long have we been trying to seal the ports against drugs? How many decades? Under how many administrations? Drugs still get in.

 

[Locut0s]

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

Sounds just like what a lot of Christians would like to me.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Locut0s

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

Sounds just like what a lot of Christians would like to me.

no stop your lieing. not true at all, and even if it were its not put to practice, while what i said is practiced by most muslim nations

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

I am fascinated about how you know what the Muslims want.

Question for you. Suppose the majority prefer having the clerics run things. Suppose they want to exercise their freedom by choosing that? Do you let them, or do you take away their freedom of choice by imposing another system?

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: raildogg
I thought when 9/11 happened people should have gotten the idea that terrorists are really serious about murdering as many Americans as they can. 3,000 people died that day, New York's economy laid in ruins for much time, its finally coming back up thankfully.

But the point is that people to this day think terrorists cant do us any harm. I see it everyday, from people I meet to the people on these forums. They continue to underestimate the viciousness and the pure evil of these terrorist thugs who plan each day to murder as many Americans as they can.

I'm telling you if we ignore terrorists, which thankfully we are not thanks to Bush, there will be a much worse attack on USA.

Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone suggesting terrorists cannot do us any harm. On the contrary, I think most people on both sides of the aisle realize that the potential for terrorist attacks is real. The subject of debate is the appropriate response to this risk.

In my opinion, Bush's response to 9/11 was spectacularly incompetent. Some Presidents might have over-reacted, taking draconian actions far out of proportion to the risk. Other Presidents might have been too ineffectual, offering little to improve America's safety. Bush managed to do both.

Bush over-reacted in many highly-visible ways. He shamelessly exploited the tragedy of 9/11 to further his ideological agenda, diverting us into a reckless war that has inflamed the Muslim world, and that will, almost certainly, increase the risk of terrorism for a generation. He's made a mockery of our Constitution, our commitment to basic human rights, and our role as the leader of the free world.

While one might argue that 3,000 deaths warrants such an over-reaction, that is an emotional response, not a reasoned one. IIRC, over 40,000 people die each year in automobile accidents, yet we do not abandon due process to prevent auto fatalities. We do not trample our civil liberties to prevent auto fatilities. We do not invade other countries on trumped-up evidence to prevent auto fatalities.

Conversely, Bush has neglected less dramatic actions that would be far more effective in reducing the risk of terrorism. While we make a great show of harassing air passengers -- to prevent an attack that almost certainly can never happen again -- we do almost nothing to screen air cargo. We fret about a potential nuclear attack, yet we have yet to get serious about securing our ports, the most likely entry point for a nuclear device. Bush is all show and no substance.

9/11 happened because we were sleeping while the terrorists were planning the attacks. Our intelligence services failed us, but the sad thing is that noone was held accountable for it.

I agree. No doubt our intelligence services must bear some of the responsibility for this failure. The Bush adminsitration must shoulder the lion's share, however. They ignored multiple warnings that terrorism was a threat, and did essentially nothing before 9/11 to prevent an attack. Perhaps it would not have made a difference anyway, but there's no excuse for not trying.

Raildogg?

I believe that the 911 commission determined that the Clinton administration had constructed barriers within the intelligence community that prevented proper analysis of the intelligence that was avaliable. One of the commission members was, in fact, blamed for doing so.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

I am fascinated about how you know what the Muslims want.

Question for you. Suppose the majority prefer having the clerics run things. Suppose they want to exercise their freedom by choosing that? Do you let them, or do you take away their freedom of choice by imposing another system?

i know this by research and listening to people of different walks of life.

Sure I let them choose whatever they want, their choice. But thats how things are done/handled in many muslim nations

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Locut0s

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

Sounds just like what a lot of Christians would like to me.

Christian churches are all separate groups that would never become agreeable enough to accomplish that. The Chtholic church was successful, but they failed in the end. I think most Christians still hold the knowledge of that failure and are happy with the government and governing being separate.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Locut0s

Originally posted by: raildogg
muslims feel that govt. should only provide security etc

but the muslim clerics should oversee education, morals of the society and law. thats the main problem here

Sounds just like what a lot of Christians would like to me.

no stop your lieing. not true at all, and even if it were its not put to practice, while what i said is practiced by most muslim nations

Lying? Stickers in Science textbooks, Moral Majority, Gay Marriage. Sound familiar?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: conjur
Right now, we are no more and no less safe than we were before 9/11. What's that say about how effective Bush has been as a President? Actually, I'd say we really are less safe.

Agree 100%. I travelled abroad just after 9/11 and I didn't feel threatened. From what I've seen in the news that isn't the case now. I know people who have family outside the US that don't bring their American husbands because they don't feel it's safe. Gee, thanks GWB...

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: dgevert
"Don't forget 9/11" he says.

WTF does 9/11 have to do with the war in Iraq? NOTHING! Iraq had NOTHING to do with it. Hussein had NOTHING to do with it.

I'm sick of hearing this claim.

And we are sick of listening to crap like that.

Obviously Saddam did have a part in there. Have you ever wondered why the White House does not release every single bit of intelligence out to the American People. We had our reasons. You are putting Hussein up on a pedestal here, do you think he is a good guy or something. What about the genocide on those Kurds. What about the Terrorists he was hardboring. What about the invasion of Kuat... no we made the right moves.

-Kevin

"Hardboring"? Sounds very painful. I don't think terrorists would like to be hardbored.

Anyway, I recommend you read the 9/11 Commission Report which shows that there was no collaborative relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. I also recommend you search the various threads up here where this topic has been beaten to death over and over and over and no matter how many times you may say, it doesn't make it true.

Oh, btw, the invasion of Kuwait? Do some research into the satellite photos the US used to justify going to war. The photos were faked.

actually it has been confirmed there was al qaeda in Iraq before the war by USA. zarqawi has been there for a long time.

You don't read the truth much, do you?

Zarqawi was in a camp in northern Iraq, in Kurdish-controlled terrority, protected by the U.S. No-Fly Zone. Hmmm...

BTW, did you know Bush had three opportunities to get Zarqawi and passed them all up? Hmm...wonder why? You don't think he wanted to invade Iraq no matter what, do you? Naaaah...

never ever heard of that before

You're kidding me, right?

You're in here debating 9/11 and such, but you are about the most uninformed person I've seen in here.

Edit: You and the gaming guy - does the stuff you are learning about in this thread have any effect at all on your opinions?

Let's see...
R...
R...
there it is. R.
That's r-a-i-l-d-o-g-g, correct?

(damn, this file's getting big.)

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Let's see...
R...
R...
there it is. R.
That's r-a-i-l-d-o-g-g, correct?

(damn, this file's getting big.)

[/quote]

ho ho ho, hardy har har funny stuff there
:thumbsup:

 

[judasmachine]

I guess it taught me that americans whine the most when 3000 people are killed. All around the world people are killing each other for reasons that vary from petty larceny to state sanctioned murder. More than 3000 people die all around the world, and you expect one shot to phase me? Come on not after the masked genocide committed by this country. America kills hundreds of thousand Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9/11 and all you do is cheer them on. America also killed many of my grandfathers to satisfy their lust for empire. You expect me to sit down and worship at your flag, just because you got slapped. I think most certainly NOT!

 

[Darkhawk28]

The only thing 9/11 taught me is how infinitely racist most people truly are.

 

[Infohawk]

9/11 taught me that some people are really scared of things they are ignorant of.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
9/11 taught me that some people are really scared of things they are ignorant of.

Yeah aren't you scared of Al Qeada?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I guess it taught me that americans whine the most when 3000 people are killed. All around the world people are killing each other for reasons that vary from petty larceny to state sanctioned murder. More than 3000 people die all around the world, and you expect one shot to phase me? Come on not after the masked genocide committed by this country. America kills hundreds of thousand Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9/11 and all you do is cheer them on. America also killed many of my grandfathers to satisfy their lust for empire. You expect me to sit down and worship at your flag, just because you got slapped. I think most certainly NOT!

What in the world are you talking about.

Who the hell is asking you to do any worshipping? Last time i checked we were still a democracy not an empire?

-Kevin

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Infohawk
9/11 taught me that some people are really scared of things they are ignorant of.

Yeah aren't you scared of Al Qeada?

I'm not nearly as scared of them as most Americans are. That's because I know enough about them to know the threat is being exagerated.