MustangSVT
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2000
- 11,554
- 12
- 81
"Why do people assume that God's job is stop death and suffering? "
GOD is all knowing, he knew it was going to happen.. yet he created it anyhow. If you start something, you could say that you are responsible for it.
GOD is all knowing, he knew it was going to happen.. yet he created it anyhow. If you start something, you could say that you are responsible for it.
the only education i had on god was from grade school before they baned it and television.
through that i made the decsision that some sort of god exsists but im still unsure about jesus.
*kat. <-- not a part of any religious oranisation and doesnt wish to be.
through that i made the decsision that some sort of god exsists but im still unsure about jesus.
*kat. <-- not a part of any religious oranisation and doesnt wish to be.
Zucchini:
One could say that fault and responsibility are distinct. In other words, God could be dealing responsibly with suffering even though it isn't His fault.
Your view of God seems to emphasize deistic transcendence to the loss of panentheistic immanence. You seem to see God as totally separate from His creation. This is only one side of the coin. The Christian view of God also sees Him as immanently involved in every aspect of His creation. "In Him we live and move and have our being." (see Acts 17) Since He is the ground of all being, when any being suffers, He suffers.
Read my (lengthy, I know) post written at 10:58 a.m. I am curious as to what you think. Suffering is part of the divine life as well as humanity's.
Let me ask this: is there ever love without suffering? Is it intrinsically possible to choose to love without introducing the very real possibility of suffering?
One could say that fault and responsibility are distinct. In other words, God could be dealing responsibly with suffering even though it isn't His fault.
Your view of God seems to emphasize deistic transcendence to the loss of panentheistic immanence. You seem to see God as totally separate from His creation. This is only one side of the coin. The Christian view of God also sees Him as immanently involved in every aspect of His creation. "In Him we live and move and have our being." (see Acts 17) Since He is the ground of all being, when any being suffers, He suffers.
Read my (lengthy, I know) post written at 10:58 a.m. I am curious as to what you think. Suffering is part of the divine life as well as humanity's.
Let me ask this: is there ever love without suffering? Is it intrinsically possible to choose to love without introducing the very real possibility of suffering?
"GOD FASHIONED THE SHIP OF THE WORLD"
God fashioned the ship of the world carefully.
With the infinite skill of an All-Master
Made He the hull and the sails,
Held He the rudder
Ready for adjustment.
Erect stood He, scanning His work proudly.
Then--at fateful time--a wrong called,
And God turned, heeding.
Lo, the ship, at this opportunity, slipped slyly,
Making cunning noiseless travel down the ways.
So that, forever rudderless, it went upon the seas
Going ridiculous voyages,
Making quaint progress,
Turning as with serious purpose
Before stupid winds.
And there were many in the sky
Who laughed at this thing.
Stephen Crane
God fashioned the ship of the world carefully.
With the infinite skill of an All-Master
Made He the hull and the sails,
Held He the rudder
Ready for adjustment.
Erect stood He, scanning His work proudly.
Then--at fateful time--a wrong called,
And God turned, heeding.
Lo, the ship, at this opportunity, slipped slyly,
Making cunning noiseless travel down the ways.
So that, forever rudderless, it went upon the seas
Going ridiculous voyages,
Making quaint progress,
Turning as with serious purpose
Before stupid winds.
And there were many in the sky
Who laughed at this thing.
Stephen Crane
God suffering? Christ suffered (while here), but I just can't believe in the Father suffering. Longing yes, pain no. At least that's how I see it.
yes, i see god as separate from creation. Unless you expand your definition of god to include god being all things its just implied. As for your 1st statement.. dealing with suffering responsibly? A god would have knowledge of all suffering b4 it happened..seems the responsible thing to do is to stop it before it starts.
As for love without suffering.. what a cruel god to create love that requires suffering to exist. Also the degree of suffering. Surely people don't have to suffer torture/death so others can experience love.
What i got from skimming your lengthy 10:30 post is that god suffers with us.. and he instills shame in us when we do wrong
What of the mentally ill that do not feel shame? It also makes for a bleak image of god as feeble.. he see's great wrongs being commited.. what does he do? dusts a little shame on ppl.. that conflicts with the definition of god as all powerful. An all powerful god could have also created a world where one didn't need this shame.
As for love without suffering.. what a cruel god to create love that requires suffering to exist. Also the degree of suffering. Surely people don't have to suffer torture/death so others can experience love.
What i got from skimming your lengthy 10:30 post is that god suffers with us.. and he instills shame in us when we do wrong
What of the mentally ill that do not feel shame? It also makes for a bleak image of god as feeble.. he see's great wrongs being commited.. what does he do? dusts a little shame on ppl.. that conflicts with the definition of god as all powerful. An all powerful god could have also created a world where one didn't need this shame.
MustangSVT
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2000
- 11,554
- 12
- 81
Wow, thread's still alive and no bloodshed yet. I'm shocked :Q
Back to my original post, UG. There is more to life than just living, if you follow. There is something that binds all living things. There is even proof of family members marking the exact instant that a relative dies hundreds of miles away. There's a tie there. I'm saying that the common thread is God, not just life.
That's all the farther you can take it rationally. No way of knowing whether you and your POV (id) will continue after death. But quite a few religions hint at that.
For the longest time I've just accepted that we are the physical manifestation of God's will, or life. Life isn't physical, but it exists. So, I assume we're life's eyes and ears etc., each with a unique perspective. I have a feeling if the world comes through as hateful and ugly to you, there might not be much reason to have your POV continue after death. Dunno, just trying to tie religion into this theory I guess. Not that I give a rat's ass about religion
Back to my original post, UG. There is more to life than just living, if you follow. There is something that binds all living things. There is even proof of family members marking the exact instant that a relative dies hundreds of miles away. There's a tie there. I'm saying that the common thread is God, not just life.
That's all the farther you can take it rationally. No way of knowing whether you and your POV (id) will continue after death. But quite a few religions hint at that.
For the longest time I've just accepted that we are the physical manifestation of God's will, or life. Life isn't physical, but it exists. So, I assume we're life's eyes and ears etc., each with a unique perspective. I have a feeling if the world comes through as hateful and ugly to you, there might not be much reason to have your POV continue after death. Dunno, just trying to tie religion into this theory I guess. Not that I give a rat's ass about religion
I found God by myself
as I remember it I was studying chemisty and electronics
I became convinced that some higher power created everything
as I remember it I was studying chemisty and electronics
I became convinced that some higher power created everything
Ornery,
<...There is more to life than just living...>
At risk of profound understatement, I skeptically contend that our powers of imagination are accomplished tools at seeing that just such a premise apparently holds true.
<...There is something that binds all living things...>
Double carbon bonds, for sure. What else is this something such that skeptical scrutiny cannot find it?
<...There is even proof of family members marking the exact instant that a relative dies hundreds of miles away...>
Anecdotal evidence is fallable; such evidence is subject to personal biases both in its expressions and its interpretations. One must be concerned that the source of such proof is not the imaginations of the interested parties.
A scientific instrument that is without any powers of imagination might make a good impartial witness to such 'markings' as so claimed. Which instrument would you suggest might prove that god is not imaginary?
<...I've just accepted that we are the physical manifestation of God's will, or life...>
Is this to imply that you have grown weary of the search for the truth of the supposition that god exists? That it suits your purposes to accept the notion without further critical examination?
<...Life isn't physical, but it exists...>
Rephrasing: qualitative aspects of Life are subjective, its quantitative aspects are objective.
Though Science has little to directly say about quality of life, its application to issues of human need has dramatically enhanced life's quality. And Science also has succeeded in depriving subjective philosophies of their historical tendency for pre-definiton of life's quantitative aspects -- e.g.: thanks to Science, it now is common knowledge that the universe is not Earth-centered as once was the subjective necessity.
<...I assume...I have a feeling...Dunno, just trying...I guess...>
<...There is more to life than just living...>
At risk of profound understatement, I skeptically contend that our powers of imagination are accomplished tools at seeing that just such a premise apparently holds true.
<...There is something that binds all living things...>
Double carbon bonds, for sure. What else is this something such that skeptical scrutiny cannot find it?
<...There is even proof of family members marking the exact instant that a relative dies hundreds of miles away...>
Anecdotal evidence is fallable; such evidence is subject to personal biases both in its expressions and its interpretations. One must be concerned that the source of such proof is not the imaginations of the interested parties.
A scientific instrument that is without any powers of imagination might make a good impartial witness to such 'markings' as so claimed. Which instrument would you suggest might prove that god is not imaginary?
<...I've just accepted that we are the physical manifestation of God's will, or life...>
Is this to imply that you have grown weary of the search for the truth of the supposition that god exists? That it suits your purposes to accept the notion without further critical examination?
<...Life isn't physical, but it exists...>
Rephrasing: qualitative aspects of Life are subjective, its quantitative aspects are objective.
Though Science has little to directly say about quality of life, its application to issues of human need has dramatically enhanced life's quality. And Science also has succeeded in depriving subjective philosophies of their historical tendency for pre-definiton of life's quantitative aspects -- e.g.: thanks to Science, it now is common knowledge that the universe is not Earth-centered as once was the subjective necessity.
<...I assume...I have a feeling...Dunno, just trying...I guess...>
Whitedog,
<...LMAO! hahahahaha...OOoooook Moonbeam.... whatever you say...>
Finding it easier to impeach the arguer rather than the argument?
I thought Moonbeam's analogy adequately stated a valid perspective of the issue under consideration. Where's you're open mind? Cluttered by faith perhaps?
<...LMAO! hahahahaha...OOoooook Moonbeam.... whatever you say...>
Finding it easier to impeach the arguer rather than the argument?
I thought Moonbeam's analogy adequately stated a valid perspective of the issue under consideration. Where's you're open mind? Cluttered by faith perhaps?
kami
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 17,627
- 5
- 81
I went to a catholic school, so no I guess I didn't discover God for myself. I no longer "practice" my religion (going to church) and no one will ever be able to convince me the creation story in Genesis was true (I'm a firm believer in evolution), but I still believe in God. I guess you could say God is in my heart, but science is in my mind. To me it seems like some religious people have more God in their minds than in their hearts....these also tend to be the people who try to force their religions on you.
this string should die already . . .
but i'll pass that responsibility to someone else
and contribute to the ranting by saying religion
was born millenia ago probably as a product
of a culture's need to know and explain their
surroundings and to give purpose and meaning
to their lives. in essence quite similar to
science, because scientists also try to understand
their surroundings and mankind's role within.
you really cannot discover god by yourself,
but you can for yourself by linking up with
one of the major or minor modes of knowledge.
nighty night.
but i'll pass that responsibility to someone else
and contribute to the ranting by saying religion
was born millenia ago probably as a product
of a culture's need to know and explain their
surroundings and to give purpose and meaning
to their lives. in essence quite similar to
science, because scientists also try to understand
their surroundings and mankind's role within.
you really cannot discover god by yourself,
but you can for yourself by linking up with
one of the major or minor modes of knowledge.
nighty night.
I guess I didn't get a sale.
They say that a Saint is one who has surrendered his will to the will of God and a Master is one who has made his will the will of God and that the Prophet can do either. Maybe then the universe is the unfolding mirror of Gods will, that the law is life everywhere, first tiny and then more complex with the inevitable increase in parental devotion to offspring so that everywhere love and consciousness cohabitate. Maybe thus does God awaken from an endless being dream into self awareness. But into perfection comes language, the naming of a thing separate from the thing. Now, where once there was paradise there is the birth of evil, the split, the naming of good and bad and the connection and feeling that this is good or bad, that this act is good or bad, that you are good here and bad there, to the compartmentalization of a self into the good me that shows his face and the bad me I'll never ever be again. And if that bad me was the uncomprenending lover that loved without reservation and that had to be cut down like we cut down Christ because we couldn't stand his love, than we do not love like we once did and could again if we return to our deaths to resurect our true selves. So maybe the reason there is evil in the world that God does nothing about is because he IS only when you ARE.
They say that a Saint is one who has surrendered his will to the will of God and a Master is one who has made his will the will of God and that the Prophet can do either. Maybe then the universe is the unfolding mirror of Gods will, that the law is life everywhere, first tiny and then more complex with the inevitable increase in parental devotion to offspring so that everywhere love and consciousness cohabitate. Maybe thus does God awaken from an endless being dream into self awareness. But into perfection comes language, the naming of a thing separate from the thing. Now, where once there was paradise there is the birth of evil, the split, the naming of good and bad and the connection and feeling that this is good or bad, that this act is good or bad, that you are good here and bad there, to the compartmentalization of a self into the good me that shows his face and the bad me I'll never ever be again. And if that bad me was the uncomprenending lover that loved without reservation and that had to be cut down like we cut down Christ because we couldn't stand his love, than we do not love like we once did and could again if we return to our deaths to resurect our true selves. So maybe the reason there is evil in the world that God does nothing about is because he IS only when you ARE.
<< The three victims mounted together onto the chairs.
The three necks were placed at the same moment within the nooses.
"Long live liberty!" cried the two adults.
But the child was silent.
"Where is God? Where is He?" someone behind me asked.
At a sign from the head of the camp, the three chairs tipped over...
Then the march past began. The two adults were no longer alive. Their tongues hung swollen, blue-tinged. But the third rope was still moving; being so light, the child was still alive...
For more than half an hour he stayed there, struggling between life and death, dying in slow agony under our eyes. And we had to look him full in the face. He was still alive when I passed in front of him. His tongue was still red, his eyes were not yet glazed.
Behind me, I heard the same man asking:
"Where is God now?"
And I heard a voice within me answer him:
"Where is He? Here He is--He is hanging here on this gallows..."
That night the soup tasted of corpses. >>
Night, Elie Wiesel, p. 72.
God is our Father, we, His children, and he cannot, because of his love for all of His children, kill one of his own because his own would kill each other.
If I have truely found God as UG says, I have found Him is in my own and others' suffering, for I know no greater joy than the pain of believing.
The thing for me is why was he only here during the time when everyone was illiterate? He needs to have a continuation on CNN. Why did all these miracles take place in the past. Are all these scrolls just little notes written down by J. Tolken's great ancestors for a great story book.
SVTPower: I presume you mean why Jesus wasn't around when the majority of people were literate. Well, the fact that there are written Roman and Jewish accounts of (a) Jesus Christ shows that:
a.) Jesus Christ was real.
b.) Not all the information about Jesus we have was first passed through Tradition or verbal stories.
For example, the apostle Matthew was a publican, a tax collector, and could write. He is credited with the first writing about Jesus. And not all miracles took place in the past. The events at Fatima occured in the early 20th century. Maximilliam Kolby, a Franciscan priest, lived six days without food or water in a Nazi cell, stil praying with about six other Jews with him. Their Nazi captors had to kill them with an injection of poison.
a.) Jesus Christ was real.
b.) Not all the information about Jesus we have was first passed through Tradition or verbal stories.
For example, the apostle Matthew was a publican, a tax collector, and could write. He is credited with the first writing about Jesus. And not all miracles took place in the past. The events at Fatima occured in the early 20th century. Maximilliam Kolby, a Franciscan priest, lived six days without food or water in a Nazi cell, stil praying with about six other Jews with him. Their Nazi captors had to kill them with an injection of poison.
AMD acutally they are not sure who wrote isiah or john others they have a good clear idea who and when they were written but paul did most of the writting that is actually in the bible after the meeting of alexandria way back when !!!!!!
as for god i am agnostic but i am not going to worry about it either way. even christianity since in isaiah jesus is quoted as saying "it is better to worship in a closet then openly with hypocrites"
yeah i can't spell and grammer that is a different post all together
my 2 cents
as for god i am agnostic but i am not going to worry about it either way. even christianity since in isaiah jesus is quoted as saying "it is better to worship in a closet then openly with hypocrites"
yeah i can't spell and grammer that is a different post all together
my 2 cents
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