thats true. As is true with anything completely unobservable, or imagined. Its on the same level as little green aliens. I don't think we were trying to disprove that god exists directly, just disprove any supposed evidence that he does.
DannyLove
Lifer
- Oct 17, 2000
- 12,876
- 4
- 76
i believe in a god, whether it was my parents that told me about him/her, it was my own personal struggle where i found him.
Like an early philosopher said (cant remember his name): he stated the prices in believing in a god. its true, think about it. He said that, if you believe in a god, and believe in the after life and believe in his words and follow them, then you will have a prosperous life in eternity, if god actually existed. If he didnt exist, then you were fooled but no harm has been done to you and you can continue living.....but if you don't believe in him and he does come for us, you'll be left behind. All this is meant by "you have nothing to lose, if you follow the word," and its true. it is so true. The price you pay for not believing is greater than if you did, therefore believe!!!!
Danny
Like an early philosopher said (cant remember his name): he stated the prices in believing in a god. its true, think about it. He said that, if you believe in a god, and believe in the after life and believe in his words and follow them, then you will have a prosperous life in eternity, if god actually existed. If he didnt exist, then you were fooled but no harm has been done to you and you can continue living.....but if you don't believe in him and he does come for us, you'll be left behind. All this is meant by "you have nothing to lose, if you follow the word," and its true. it is so true. The price you pay for not believing is greater than if you did, therefore believe!!!!
Danny
I think the main point of UG's question is to ask how many people are really willing to wrestle with this question on a personal level. Of course, truly independent thought is rare and is usually whacked-out 
Are we so arrogant as to think that we have a more solid and independent grasp of these issues than everyone "on the other side of the fence"?
Still, there are both theists and atheists who come to their basic presuppositions through a fair level of self-examination and relative independence.
Are we so arrogant as to think that we have a more solid and independent grasp of these issues than everyone "on the other side of the fence"?Still, there are both theists and atheists who come to their basic presuppositions through a fair level of self-examination and relative independence.
Dannylove,
That can also be seen as a self serving reason for believing in god. Gambling with your soul you could say.. not exactly the best reason for believing in something. It becomes like belief in santa or the tooth fairy.. very selfish kind of faith.
That can also be seen as a self serving reason for believing in god. Gambling with your soul you could say.. not exactly the best reason for believing in something. It becomes like belief in santa or the tooth fairy.. very selfish kind of faith.
DannyLove
Lifer
- Oct 17, 2000
- 12,876
- 4
- 76
Zucchini
however, the reason i stated that statement didnt exactly potray why i believe, it was more of the concept that make me wonder. im not gambling with my own fate, but seeing the realistic side to this (if there is one). trust me, i dont believe because of that. just makes you wonder a bit, yes no?
however, the reason i stated that statement didnt exactly potray why i believe, it was more of the concept that make me wonder. im not gambling with my own fate, but seeing the realistic side to this (if there is one). trust me, i dont believe because of that. just makes you wonder a bit, yes no?
Zucchini:
Your point about "selfish kinds of faith" is legitimate. However, I think the "selfishness" angle can be used by both sides. Is it possible that many atheists refuse any belief in a god/absolute authority because of a fierce desire to maintain their own independence and self-autonomy?
Your point about "selfish kinds of faith" is legitimate. However, I think the "selfishness" angle can be used by both sides. Is it possible that many atheists refuse any belief in a god/absolute authority because of a fierce desire to maintain their own independence and self-autonomy?
MustangSVT
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2000
- 11,554
- 12
- 81
There is God because there are things we dont know and because GOD can not be proven to exist scientifically? There is GOD and if you dont belive it you'll goto hell and the reason is because you are not mature enough and you dont understand life and death enough?
interesting arguments. Science does not do anything, nor is it a tool against GOD or religions. It is just a method to prove that things will occur certain way Most of the time with scientific proof. It lets us predict the outcome faily accurate. Where religion and unproven things are only a "Blind Faith" because of the way you speak above. But science and logical reasoning is not against it, its just that at this moment with given information, there is no reason to belive GOD's existence. But maybe someday we'll find some more solid evidence.
interesting arguments. Science does not do anything, nor is it a tool against GOD or religions. It is just a method to prove that things will occur certain way Most of the time with scientific proof. It lets us predict the outcome faily accurate. Where religion and unproven things are only a "Blind Faith" because of the way you speak above. But science and logical reasoning is not against it, its just that at this moment with given information, there is no reason to belive GOD's existence. But maybe someday we'll find some more solid evidence.
dannylove,
heh that arguement just reminds me about something i learned in philosophy.. i think it was pascals wager???(please correct me if i'm wrong) He basically made the case for gambling with your soul A basic kind of chart with costs benifits analysis, course he didn't take into account the insincere nature of belief through selfish reasons.. well that and he ignored all the other religions of the world.
heh
that arguement just reminds me about something i learned in philosophy.. i think it was pascals wager???(please correct me if i'm wrong) He basically made the case for gambling with your soul A basic kind of chart with costs benifits analysis, course he didn't take into account the insincere nature of belief through selfish reasons.. well that and he ignored all the other religions of the world.The cool and unique thing about God, is you DON'T need any Evidence to know he's real... you just have to develope faith and believe in what you read in the bible and accept him. Then when God becomes real to you, you go from believing to knowing...
I guess I can see how this sounds like "brain wash" or whatever word you intelects choose to use, but it's not. It's real. Any true Christian knows what I'm talking about.
Yea, you can say what you want about no proof, or whatever, but I guess you'll just never understand that, That's not how it works...
Like someone said, "either you get it, or you don't"
I guess I can see how this sounds like "brain wash" or whatever word you intelects choose to use, but it's not. It's real. Any true Christian knows what I'm talking about.
Yea, you can say what you want about no proof, or whatever, but I guess you'll just never understand that, That's not how it works...
Like someone said, "either you get it, or you don't"
Zuchini
What kind of arguement is this?
my point is that science isn't an answer to everything
if people don't believe in something because science doesn't explain it, then they are following a limited basis for finding the whole truth.
Can science prove how a joke is funny?
Do you refuse to laugh at a joke because science can't prove it?
If so, you are missing out.
And yet another example of a thiest running out of good arguments will resort to threats.
huh?
was that directed at my post?
What kind of arguement is this?
my point is that science isn't an answer to everything
if people don't believe in something because science doesn't explain it, then they are following a limited basis for finding the whole truth.
Can science prove how a joke is funny?
Do you refuse to laugh at a joke because science can't prove it?
If so, you are missing out.
And yet another example of a thiest running out of good arguments will resort to threats.
huh?
was that directed at my post?
MustangSVT
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2000
- 11,554
- 12
- 81
Danny love if u read my post, i try to show your reasoning and NO THERE IS NO GOD.. (to me), but im still open to suggestions.
Athanasius demonstrates why he is an Elite Member:
<...I think the main point of UG's question is to ask how many people are really willing to wrestle with this question on a personal level...>
Good show!
<...I think the main point of UG's question is to ask how many people are really willing to wrestle with this question on a personal level...>
Good show!
Whitedog demonstrates why he is Not an Elite Member.
<..As I knew this thread would turn... into one that only attemps to disprove God's existance.
..>
hehehe
<..As I knew this thread would turn... into one that only attemps to disprove God's existance.
..>
hehehe
Some statements:
> There's no use for religion in these times.
> Perfection is a curse, because it would require a stable, never changing system.
> There is no absolute good and right, only events.
> The bible contains myths which are written down after they've been told from father to son for many generations. They should therefore not be taken literally in any way.
> The chance (a) god(s) exist(s) is smaller than the chance that there exist alien species in this Universe.
Have fun debating, and remember: valid reasonings are only accepted
> There's no use for religion in these times.
> Perfection is a curse, because it would require a stable, never changing system.
> There is no absolute good and right, only events.
> The bible contains myths which are written down after they've been told from father to son for many generations. They should therefore not be taken literally in any way.
> The chance (a) god(s) exist(s) is smaller than the chance that there exist alien species in this Universe.
Have fun debating, and remember: valid reasonings are only accepted
Some counterpoints to Elledan:
1) There is no use for religion as an empty form without personal value to the individual. However, there is still Mystery and there is still Shame, which is the reality of memes that drives religion.
2) Perfection as an abstract is hard to imagine, much less practice. This is not what the Hebrew ethic means by "perfect" when it refers to growth oriented creatures. Perfect refers to the moral and ethical realm in biblical writngs, not to mathematical concepts. The human who attains "perfection" is the one who attains a level of observed benevolence from which there is no intrinsic possibility of falling away. That doesn't mean there would be no further ascendency.
3) There is a sense of oughtness which most humans bring into every situation. This sense of oughtness has much common ground amongst people of a wide diversity of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Infact, to have a sense of conscious "oughtness" seems to be unique amongst the physical species we can observe. The loss of it is considered diseased and sociopathic. Furthermore, great thinkers in various cultures, but uniquely as a people amongst the ancient Hebrews, tied this sense of Oughtness to the same source of Shame and Mystery, and called them One.
4) In addition to "poetic myth" that teaches valuable lessons, the bible also includes many statements that, by genuine literary evidence, familiarity with obscure customs, archeological evidence, and linguistic style, bear the marks of eyewitness accounts. Furthermore, some of these eyewitness accounts, verified to have been written well before the events it foretells, accurately predict some events in amazing detail decades or even centuries before they happen. Based on this evidence, a genuine scientist , without mandating any particular religion, would consider the possibility that knowledge is available to us that cannot be confiremd by the five senses and that at times defies the typical limitations of space and time.
5) The chance that aliens (of similar or higher consciousness as humans) exist in the same space time continuum as us is something that can be chronicled and observed by science. Based on chronicled observations, it is apparently remote and beyond mathematical probability in the observable universe. The existence of a genuinely supernatural being that transcends observation is not a question that science can even legitimately seek to answer given its current paradigms. Such a comparison is not valid reasoning.
1) There is no use for religion as an empty form without personal value to the individual. However, there is still Mystery and there is still Shame, which is the reality of memes that drives religion.
2) Perfection as an abstract is hard to imagine, much less practice. This is not what the Hebrew ethic means by "perfect" when it refers to growth oriented creatures. Perfect refers to the moral and ethical realm in biblical writngs, not to mathematical concepts. The human who attains "perfection" is the one who attains a level of observed benevolence from which there is no intrinsic possibility of falling away. That doesn't mean there would be no further ascendency.
3) There is a sense of oughtness which most humans bring into every situation. This sense of oughtness has much common ground amongst people of a wide diversity of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Infact, to have a sense of conscious "oughtness" seems to be unique amongst the physical species we can observe. The loss of it is considered diseased and sociopathic. Furthermore, great thinkers in various cultures, but uniquely as a people amongst the ancient Hebrews, tied this sense of Oughtness to the same source of Shame and Mystery, and called them One.
4) In addition to "poetic myth" that teaches valuable lessons, the bible also includes many statements that, by genuine literary evidence, familiarity with obscure customs, archeological evidence, and linguistic style, bear the marks of eyewitness accounts. Furthermore, some of these eyewitness accounts, verified to have been written well before the events it foretells, accurately predict some events in amazing detail decades or even centuries before they happen. Based on this evidence, a genuine scientist , without mandating any particular religion, would consider the possibility that knowledge is available to us that cannot be confiremd by the five senses and that at times defies the typical limitations of space and time.
5) The chance that aliens (of similar or higher consciousness as humans) exist in the same space time continuum as us is something that can be chronicled and observed by science. Based on chronicled observations, it is apparently remote and beyond mathematical probability in the observable universe. The existence of a genuinely supernatural being that transcends observation is not a question that science can even legitimately seek to answer given its current paradigms. Such a comparison is not valid reasoning.
Elledan,
The chance (a) god(s) exist(s) is smaller than the chance that there exist alien species in this Universe.
do you have any basis or evidence to back this up, or is it just your belief or faith?
The chance (a) god(s) exist(s) is smaller than the chance that there exist alien species in this Universe.
do you have any basis or evidence to back this up, or is it just your belief or faith?
The chance of intelligent alien life is possible based on conditions we've seen on other planets. Recent discoveries have increased the number of planets we're able to see, so the chance has gone up. Its still very very low, but it is more probable then god existing.
I must not have paid attention in my science or algebra class....
could you refresh that formula for me on the probability of god existing?
could you refresh that formula for me on the probability of god existing?
What is the formla for probability of something that has 0 proof of existing? its 0. Even if aliens have a 1/1,000,000,000 chance of existing, its more.
every year there are new creatures discovered here on earth under our noses
previous to being "discovered" they existed
what was the probability of their existance before they were discovered?
previous to being "discovered" they existed
what was the probability of their existance before they were discovered?
There is precedence for the discovery of new species, there is 0 precedence for the discovery of a god.
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