Did I play this hand very badly?

[Dunbar]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
How do you know the guy didn't have a king? Then by betting more you set yourself up to lose a huge pot. He should of NEVER been involved in that hand in the first place.

Heads-up you can't assume your opponent made top pair on the flop. You bet for information there, if he raises he probably has you beat, calls than he might have a draw. If you always fold without having top pair (or better) than you're playing too conservatively.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: bhanson
[If I can't beat the players at this level then I don't think it's a good idea to play against better people.

Not necessarily true. For limit /pot limit games with small blinds, it is exceedingly difficult to chase your opponents pre-river. I will pretty much call any hand pre-flop for $0.10 since even the worst hand can turn into a gem after the flop.

In other words, there is not as much importance on initial hand qualityas there is in NL.

 

[VenomXTF]

Originally posted by: Dunbar

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
How do you know the guy didn't have a king? Then by betting more you set yourself up to lose a huge pot. He should of NEVER been involved in that hand in the first place.

Heads-up you can't assume your opponent made top pair on the flop. You bet for information there, if he raises he probably has you beat, calls than he might have a draw. If you always fold without having top pair (or better) than you're playing too conservatively.

This was not a heads up game. I stand by what I said. The hand should not have gone farther than the flop (and I would of folded preflop).

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
"Obviously, my example assumes that he has an OP to his opponents str dr. In reality, this hand is a bit more complicated. While neither one played their hand correctly, the OP certainly made the most costly mistake by calling that river bet.

BTW, why do we need to be a pro poker player in order to talk about poker?"

No, but if you're going to give advice, at least make it good advice. I'm not the best poker player in the world, but I have enough experience under my belt to give him correct advice. Other have also said the same thing about the limits he's playing at, yet some people keep posting wrong advice like he should of bet more to get the player to fold. What if he doesn't fold? What if he has a stronger hand and not a straight draw? Like I said, monday night quarterbacking is not the right advice.

I stand by my advice. What he bet is not a "feeler" (whatever that is) bet since it gives any draw odds to call. The OP could have reasonably assumed that his MP was good considering,
1) the other player limped also and the BB checked
2) The odds of him having paired his king are low

Personally, I don't like much about the OPs play but I do not mind a bet on the flop into one limper and the BB with MP AND an inside str. draw. It's a good play. However, you need to bet enough to make calling with a draw unprofitable. The OP did not do that. What happened is that his weak bet looked weak to the other player who decided to raise. I'm guessing a 1/2 pot sized bet gets the opponent to fold and if it doesn't, at least, he is making an unprofitable call. If his 1/2 pot sized bet gets re-raised, muck the hand and give his opponent credit for a gutsy (although most probably -EV in the long run) bluff.

But what do I know, you regularly win 100BB/hr in NL. You must know something no one else does. Perhaps you could share?

 

[weirdichi]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Calling the post river bet was definitely wrong for two reasons:

1) Your opponent checked post turn. This typically indicates weakness (unless he is slow playing you).
2) There were so many ways to make a straight after the river which beat you best hand.

He could've just called to get information, and with such low blinds, I would've paid to confirm my intuitions. But relative to the size of the bet and pot, you're right that he shouldn't have called because of the dirty straight on the board that could beat your hand.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
"Sorry but you've lost all credibility with the statement I've bolded. Poker is a game of skill only in the long run. You can never "win every time" no matter how poorly your competition plays. Hold-em is a great game b/c it's the easiest common form of poker for a gambler (fish) to win in the short-run. My 89o will crack your AA 1 in 5 times. Some days, over the course of a very small sample size such as a few hundred hands, your AA will get cracked, your KK will be in against AA, your flopped flush will lose to a better flush on the river, etc. The only think you can do is to make sure that you put in the proper bets when you were ahead. That way, the next time, when the odds play out a little better, you come out a big winner."

I don't play for 2 minutes. You will never win if you play for short periods of time. When you play all day, that one AA you lose will not mean crap. If you play 5-10 hours and lose 20 in a row, that's a different story, and could possibly but rarely happen. I also did not say you WILL win everytime, I said you can win. There will always be that bad run of cards. All poker players have been there. I'm slightly wrong in saying every time, what I ment to say is majority (or almost every) of the time. I still believe you can win almost every session playing bad players. They are making the wrong calls all of the time, and you are not. Play 4 tables for 10 hours, I don't think this qualifies as short run or "few hands".

The only problem with this is that, gamblers, the ones who fish for things will go all in with top pair and a pair on the turn, when a flush draw and straight draw are showing and then they get called by the flush player, and still hit a full house on the river. Hold 'Em is good for the erratic player in short games. You can't win them all that is why great player lose to nobodies every once in a while.

 

[VenomXTF]

"I stand by my advice. What he bet is not a "feeler" (whatever that is) bet since it gives any draw odds to call. The OP could have reasonably assumed that his MP was good considering,
1) the other player limped also and the BB checked
2) The odds of him having paired his king are low

Personally, I don't like much about the OPs play but I do not mind a bet on the flop into one limper and the BB with MP AND an inside str. draw. It's a good play. However, you need to bet enough to make calling with a draw unprofitable. The OP did not do that. What happened is that his weak bet looked weak to the other player who decided to raise. I'm guessing a 1/2 pot sized bet gets the opponent to fold and if it doesn't, at least, he is making an unprofitable call. If his 1/2 pot sized bet gets re-raised, muck the hand and give his opponent credit for a gutsy (although most probably -EV in the long run) bluff.

But what do I know, you regularly win 100BB/hr in NL. You must know something no one else does. Perhaps you could share?"

What you just said is completely correct, and I wasn't talking about your advice, but in general. Why would you need to win 100BB/hr? Playing $4 BB (400 buyin) NL, that's 400 dollars an hour, it's not gonna happen. 100 dollars an hour is more likely if you're a really good player, and it's still a ton of money. If you play, I can help you through some hands, but to win you gotta play for long periods of time. Short sessions can cause you to play bad.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
This was not a heads up game. I stand by what I said. The hand should not have gone farther than the flop (and I would of folded preflop).

Bhanson is getting 4.5 to 1 odds on a call with middle pair and a gutshot straight. He needs roughly 6.5 to 1 to call, meaning he needs to make up 2 small bets bets somewhere later, which he could probably get, so he can make a loose call on the flop. But then there's the question of what sort of read do we have on the bettor: is he passive, suggesting that he'll only bet with what he thinks is the best hand (a K in this case), or is he aggressive enough to bet at us with a draw or mid/bottom pair or a complete bluff? Also to consider is do you want to give BB even better odds to call on whatever hand he may be holding?

These are questions you need to be asking. Not simply "K high flop, I don't have a K, I'm out to any bet." This is a nano-limits game, but there's no better place to refine your poker strategy and thinking then when it costs the cheapest.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: DaShen
The only problem with this is that, gamblers, the ones who fish for things will go all in with top pair and a pair on the turn, when a flush draw and straight draw are showing and then they get called by the flush player, and still hit a full house on the river.

I'm confused by this, can you please elaborate.

There are many cases where having the top pair warrants an all-in bet. One of them is where you have the top pair (believing you have the best hand), there is a calling hand on the board (flush, straight or over card pairs) and an all-in bet makes it unprofitable for your opponent(s) to call.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 95SS
Things I noticed that should be corrected

1) Playing QJo in middle position
2) Limping in
3) Raising the minimum on the flop
4) Not betting the turn bigger if you thought your J was good
5) Calling the river when it's obvious you're beat

Perfect critique here IMO. He basically let his opponent chase all the way to the straight on the river, and then only called it when he obviously hit it.
The OP wasn't overly aggressive, he was under aggressive. He either limped, called, or bet the minimum, so he never knew what his opponent had. He should have raised before the flop, more after the flop, and at the turn to keep his opponent from chasing. At the river, with the damage done, he should have either folded or bet big, not just called.

To VenomXTF: suck out is often the name of the game. Poker is not entirely a game of skill, there is an element of luck involved, and pocket rockets do get beaten. You tried to slow-play them and ran into a loose player who got lucky. That's the way it goes sometimes.

 

[VenomXTF]

"The only problem with this is that, gamblers, the ones who fish for things will go all in with top pair and a pair on the turn, when a flush draw and straight draw are showing and then they get called by the flush player, and still hit a full house on the river. Hold 'Em is good for the erratic player in short games. You can't win them all that is why great player lose to nobodies every once in a while."

I never said otherwise. So what exactly is the problem you speak of?

 

[VenomXTF]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 95SS
Things I noticed that should be corrected

1) Playing QJo in middle position
2) Limping in
3) Raising the minimum on the flop
4) Not betting the turn bigger if you thought your J was good
5) Calling the river when it's obvious you're beat

Perfect critique here IMO. He basically let his opponent chase all the way to the straight on the river, and then only called it when he obviously hit it.
The OP wasn't overly aggressive, he was under aggressive. He either limped, called, or bet the minimum, so he never knew what his opponent had. He should have raised before the flop, more after the flop, and at the turn to keep his opponent from chasing. At the river, with the damage done, he should have either folded or bet big, not just called.

To VenomXTF: suck out is often the name of the game. Poker is not entirely a game of skill, there is an element of luck involved, and pocket rockets do get beaten. You tried to slow-play them and ran into a loose player who got lucky. That's the way it goes sometimes.

Do some of you people actually read the posts before replying? Slow play. WHAT?

 

[kongs]

Yes, you played this poorly. You HAVE to know he is on a straight draw the way he was playing this and when 4 cards come up you need to get out.

What you should have done to WIN the pot was bet more early. You need to protect his hand, make your bets at least 1/2 pot or more and see if he still wants to chase. More often than not he will get out and you win.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Do some of you people actually read the posts before replying? Slow play. WHAT?

i think he's talking about the other hand that someone listed above.....where he limped in and raised 400, only to run into pocket 8s that made their set.

 

[VenomXTF]

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Do some of you people actually read the posts before replying? Slow play. WHAT?

i think he's talking about the other hand that someone listed above.....where he limped in and raised 400, only to run into pocket 8s that made their set.

I know, that was my hand, but I'd like to know how a $400 reraise (into a $700 stack) preflop is slow playing. Which part of the hand was slow played?

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Do some of you people actually read the posts before replying? Slow play. WHAT?

i think he's talking about the other hand that someone listed above.....where he limped in and raised 400, only to run into pocket 8s that made their set.

I know, that was my hand, but I'd like to know how a $400 reraise (into a $700 stack) preflop is slow playing. Which part of the hand was slow played?

The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: kongs
Yes, you played this poorly. You HAVE to know he is on a straight draw the way he was playing this and when 4 cards come up you need to get out.

What you should have done to WIN the pot was bet more early. You need to protect his hand, make your bets at least 1/2 pot or more and see if he still wants to chase. More often than not he will get out and you win.

This is true except that players seem to make exceptions to odds decisions when the cost of the call is very low.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: crownjules
The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

BS. Never say never. There are situations for everything in poker.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: crownjules
The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

BS. Never say never. There are situations for everything in poker.

i'm a beginner, but i tend to agree with this.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: kongs
Yes, you played this poorly. You HAVE to know he is on a straight draw the way he was playing this and when 4 cards come up you need to get out.

What you should have done to WIN the pot was bet more early. You need to protect his hand, make your bets at least 1/2 pot or more and see if he still wants to chase. More often than not he will get out and you win.

This is true except that players seem to make exceptions to odds decisions when the cost of the call is very low.

Absolutely. That's why playing lower limits is more profitable (% wise) than higher limits.

 

[VenomXTF]

"The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it."

First, maybe you need to look up what slow playing is, then come back and tell me again how I slow played. I don't think you understand poker concepts well enough to say that limp reraising should never be done and is bad. Read my post explaining why I played the hand the way I did (hint, the part where the donkey was raising almost every hand preflop is important). You are welcome to come play a game with me, or tell us all what experience you have and how you are so qualified to give me such advice. You should go tell every poker pro to "never do it" too. I'd really like to know where some of this advice is coming from.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: VenomXTF

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
Do some of you people actually read the posts before replying? Slow play. WHAT?

i think he's talking about the other hand that someone listed above.....where he limped in and raised 400, only to run into pocket 8s that made their set.

I know, that was my hand, but I'd like to know how a $400 reraise (into a $700 stack) preflop is slow playing. Which part of the hand was slow played?

The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

Exactly what I was talking about. I hate that sh!t. It bit VenomXTF in the ass, and I don't feel the least bit bad about it. He tried to act like the other player was a complete donkey and he just walked into a bad beat, but the fact is that he fscked up from his first action. Limp re-raising is like advertising to the entire table that you're only on the bluff. No matter what happened afterwards, he wasn't going to be taken seriously.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: crownjules
The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

BS. Never say never. There are situations for everything in poker.

Uh no, not BS. LRR is quite possibly the most newbish mistake of all time. People who suck at poker like to think it's a viable play, but it's not. Why is that? Because it's not a LRR if no one raises behind you. And then OH NOES you have 5 people that saw a cheap flop for free against your monster cards, and quite possibly your best pre-flop hand is a meager 2nd or 3rd best when a preflop raise could have pushed them out of the pot.

Never limp re-raise.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: crownjules
The part where he first limped for $10, then the 88 guy raised to $40, then he raised to $400. Limp re-raising is a heinous act. Never do it.

BS. Never say never. There are situations for everything in poker.

Hey, I suppose it can work when you're super-strong holding pocket rockets, but even they can beat sometimes, as he found out.

 

[VenomXTF]

"Exactly what I was talking about. I hate that sh!t. It bit VenomXTF in the ass, and I don't feel the least bit bad about it. He tried to act like the other player was a complete donkey and he just walked into a bad beat, but the fact is that he fscked up from his first action. Limp re-raising is like advertising to the entire table that you're only on the bluff. No matter what happened afterwards, he wasn't going to be taken seriously."

Yea I was on a bluff, when I have aces and am at the worst 80% ahead. The only hand that does that reraise there is AA and sometimes KK. Bit me in the ass? Get a clue man. You are welcoem to come play some NL with me too, I love easy money.