Did I play this hand very badly?

[bhanson]

Full Tilt Poker Game #675425267: Table Balzar - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 14:00:57 ET - 2006/05/30
Seat 1: onthadl ($1.60)
Seat 2: Redminx ($4.15)
Seat 4: Grekon ($10.95)
Seat 5: rld72 ($3.90)
Seat 6: smilingoldcoot ($4.05)
Seat 7: cmgilmo ($6.45)
Seat 8: Dumitru ($4.10)
Seat 9: bhanson ($3.10)
Grekon posts the small blind of $0.05
rld72 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bhanson [Qs Jc]
smilingoldcoot folds
cmgilmo calls $0.10
Dumitru folds
bhanson calls $0.10
onthadl folds
Redminx folds
Grekon folds
rld72 checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd 9c Js]
rld72 checks
cmgilmo bets $0.10
bhanson raises to $0.20
rld72 folds
cmgilmo calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [Kd 9c Js] [8s]
cmgilmo checks
bhanson bets $0.35
cmgilmo calls $0.35
*** RIVER *** [Kd 9c Js 8s] [Qd]
cmgilmo has 15 seconds left to act
cmgilmo bets $1.45
knelson sits down
bhanson calls $1.45
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cmgilmo shows [Th 6c] (a straight, King high)
bhanson mucks
cmgilmo wins the pot ($3.95) with a straight, King high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.35 | Rake $0.40
Board: [Kd 9c Js 8s Qd]
Seat 1: onthadl didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Redminx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Grekon (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: rld72 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: smilingoldcoot didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: cmgilmo showed [Th 6c] and won ($3.95) with a straight, King high
Seat 8: Dumitru didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: bhanson mucked [Qs Jc] - two pair, Queens and Jacks

----

Should I have folded when he bet at the showdown? He called my bet on the turn chasing a Q at the river. Isn't chasing a single card bad? Or did I not bet enough on the turn (but I only had a mediocre pair).

 

[Accipiter22]

cliffs

 

[chorb]

well it seems you were chasing a straight also, there was an overcard on the flop (King) which shoulda have prevented you from playing your pair of jacks to aggressively.

 

[PHiuR]

yes, i would have folded as you know there were many possibilities for straight from the community cards. You didn't even have a small straight...

 

[dullard]

I see many places you could have gotten out.
1) The starting hand isn't anything to brag about. But you called.
2) You clearly could be losing to a K pair, but you raised and later bet.
3) You clearly could be losing to anyone with a K or a 10 and you called a big bet.

 

[RagingBITCH]

You both were chasing a straight (you had a weak pair). Unless you had bet big on the turn he would have called you. You were both chasing the same thing. You were stupid to call what looks to have been a pretty obvious straight on the board with two pair.

 

[bhanson]

Thanks, looks like I played (stupidly) aggressive. Anyone want to give me some pointers?

 

[mordantmonkey]

he just got really lucky on the river. you had control the whole time. i would tried to chase him out before the river since you knew he was probably going for the straight.

 

[95SS]

Things I noticed that should be corrected

1) Playing QJo in middle position
2) Limping in
3) Raising the minimum on the flop
4) Not betting the turn bigger if you thought your J was good
5) Calling the river when it's obvious you're beat

 

[weirdichi]

The guy was chasing and you probably wanted him out since you know that if he just called, then he's probably lookin for the straight. I would've called at the end just to make sure he was chasing and see what kind of cards he had. Sometimes I just call to see his cards even though I know I was losing so that I can get information on him in future hands. Playing 10 crap is stupid and he'll get caught in a hand he shouldn't be in. You were playing limit poker, unfortunately, and with such low blinds, there will be a very high chance of any player calling to the river, no matter their hands.

If you want more skilled players to play against, then go to NL with higher blinds. Even a tournament with $5 buy-in will be a little more skillful than what you're playing right now.

 

[bhanson]

Originally posted by: weirdichi
The guy was chasing and you probably wanted him out since you know that if he just called, then he's probably lookin for the straight. I would've called at the end just to make sure he was chasing and see what kind of cards he had. Sometimes I just call to see his cards even though I know I was losing so that I can get information on him in future hands. Playing 10 crap is stupid and he'll get caught in a hand he shouldn't be in. You were playing limit poker, unfortunately, and with such low blinds, there will be a very high chance of any player calling to the river, no matter their hands.

If you want more skilled players to play against, then go to NL with higher blinds. Even a tournament with $5 buy-in will be a little more skillful than what you're playing right now.

If I can't beat the players at this level then I don't think it's a good idea to play against better people.

 

[mrchan]

On a 10 cent/20 cent table, i wouldn't overanalyze things.

 

[AStar617]

Without being the big blind, he should have never played a sh!tty hand like 10-6 offsuit to begin with... he got lucky.

However, you could have forced him out quicker and not let him hang around to catch cards if you thought your middle pair was good and the turn didn't help him. There was about $1 in the pot at the turn. Your bet of $0.35 did not make it expensive enough for him NOT to see the final card. Effectively, this shows weakness. Remember that a "good" or "appropriate" bet is always relative to the size of the pot at the time in question. You weren't over aggressive, just aggressive at the wrong times.

 

[AStar617]

Originally posted by: bhanson

Originally posted by: weirdichi
The guy was chasing and you probably wanted him out since you know that if he just called, then he's probably lookin for the straight. I would've called at the end just to make sure he was chasing and see what kind of cards he had. Sometimes I just call to see his cards even though I know I was losing so that I can get information on him in future hands. Playing 10 crap is stupid and he'll get caught in a hand he shouldn't be in. You were playing limit poker, unfortunately, and with such low blinds, there will be a very high chance of any player calling to the river, no matter their hands.

If you want more skilled players to play against, then go to NL with higher blinds. Even a tournament with $5 buy-in will be a little more skillful than what you're playing right now.

If I can't beat the players at this level then I don't think it's a good idea to play against better people.

mrchan is 100% right... The problem is, at that level there's very little that can be analyzed in the way of anticipating what someone has, because half the players don't know how to play (in the sense of what to play and when to play it). When you step up at least a bit financially, it tends to weed out some of the absolute retards like Mr. T-6 here.

I was in a charity NL hold'em tourney a month or so ago with $100 buy-in, and you'd still be amazed how many people might as well just make a donation to the charity. I'm talking rank order of hands being Greek to them. :roll:

 

[yosuke188]

I would have made the same mistake, except maybe fold after the river. He just got lucky if anything

 

[95SS]

Originally posted by: bhanson

Originally posted by: weirdichi
The guy was chasing and you probably wanted him out since you know that if he just called, then he's probably lookin for the straight. I would've called at the end just to make sure he was chasing and see what kind of cards he had. Sometimes I just call to see his cards even though I know I was losing so that I can get information on him in future hands. Playing 10 crap is stupid and he'll get caught in a hand he shouldn't be in. You were playing limit poker, unfortunately, and with such low blinds, there will be a very high chance of any player calling to the river, no matter their hands.

If you want more skilled players to play against, then go to NL with higher blinds. Even a tournament with $5 buy-in will be a little more skillful than what you're playing right now.

If I can't beat the players at this level then I don't think it's a good idea to play against better people.

Tighten up your starting hands, play solid poker post-flop, and learn the math. You'll get there.

 

[Toasthead]

.10/.05 is no fold'em hold'em. that guy with 10 6 off shouldnt have been in there. But since its only a dime...people play stupidly.

 

[VenomXTF]

It doesn't matter what stakes you play at, there will always be idiots. Here is an example at a $1000 buyin NL game, with similar/same ****** at the $2000 or $5000 buyin.. I'm Akulaz btw.

Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (Real Money), #482,176,428

ANTES/BLINDS
olavhol posts blind ($5), StackinOff posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
ladyfix folds, GordonS111 folds, Akulaz calls $10, mih2099 folds, i_ball folds, SUPERGEN62 bets $40, stoney110 folds, BIGJAY888 folds, olavhol folds, StackinOff folds, Akulaz bets $400, SUPERGEN62 calls $370.

FLOP [board cards 9C,4S,8D ]
Akulaz bets $1,008.50 and is all-in, SUPERGEN62 calls $334.50 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC ]


RIVER [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC,2D ]


SHOWDOWN
Akulaz shows [ AD,AC ]
SUPERGEN62 shows [ 8H,8S ]
Akulaz wins $674, SUPERGEN62 wins $1,501.


As far as a tip for playing those tables. Wait for monster hands that can't be beat. Don't play crap no matter what. Wait until you have a full house, set, flush and then get your money in. Don't try and get people to fold, it won't happen.

 

[DaShen]

You bet wrong from the beginning.

You should have raised before the flop instead of calling if you were willing to keep raising on a straight draw with a middle pair. :roll: You should have also been more aggressive with the Pair of Jacks on the flop with a feeler bet. A 45 cent raise, the pot size at the time might have pushed him out, unless he was the type to call on a straight draw with a pot size raise. (in which if he was, there is nothing you can do about it <that is why I hate playing online, it is so fake> )

If you had raised before the flop, he probably wouldn't have called with a 10,6 after the flop. There was also so much showing after the flop, that if you were going to raise, raise at least the pot which was $.35-.45 that is a feeler bet, which would push most people out. That being said, the guy at seat 7 played too aggressively and lucked out. But you should have played the card more aggressively against such an aggressive player.

Also, with so much showing on the board, if you don't regularly play with seat number 7, there is no way to tell that he is an aggressive player. There was too much showing on the board to be so aggressive with a pair of jacks. You should have just checked or made a feeler bet instead of milking the bets with so much showing. If you made a feeler bet and he called, I would have Check till the river. Also with a $1.45 raise on the river, you should have obivously known he had something better than two pair.

 

[95SS]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
It doesn't matter what stakes you play at, there will always be idiots. Here is an example at a $1000 buyin NL game, with similar/same ****** at the $2000 or $5000 buyin.. I'm Akulaz btw.

Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (Real Money), #482,176,428

ANTES/BLINDS
olavhol posts blind ($5), StackinOff posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
ladyfix folds, GordonS111 folds, Akulaz calls $10, mih2099 folds, i_ball folds, SUPERGEN62 bets $40, stoney110 folds, BIGJAY888 folds, olavhol folds, StackinOff folds, Akulaz bets $400, SUPERGEN62 calls $370.

FLOP [board cards 9C,4S,8D ]
Akulaz bets $1,008.50 and is all-in, SUPERGEN62 calls $334.50 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC ]


RIVER [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC,2D ]


SHOWDOWN
Akulaz shows [ AD,AC ]
SUPERGEN62 shows [ 8H,8S ]
Akulaz wins $674, SUPERGEN62 wins $1,501.


As far as a tip for playing those tables. Wait for monster hands that can't be beat. Don't play crap no matter what. Wait until you have a full house, set, flush and then get your money in. Don't try and get people to fold, it won't happen.

Damn - calling off >50% of your stack preflop with 88, against a limp-reraise. And then spiking your set. Gotta love donkeys sometimes. :disgust:

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: 95SS

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
It doesn't matter what stakes you play at, there will always be idiots. Here is an example at a $1000 buyin NL game, with similar/same ****** at the $2000 or $5000 buyin.. I'm Akulaz btw.

Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (Real Money), #482,176,428

ANTES/BLINDS
olavhol posts blind ($5), StackinOff posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
ladyfix folds, GordonS111 folds, Akulaz calls $10, mih2099 folds, i_ball folds, SUPERGEN62 bets $40, stoney110 folds, BIGJAY888 folds, olavhol folds, StackinOff folds, Akulaz bets $400, SUPERGEN62 calls $370.

FLOP [board cards 9C,4S,8D ]
Akulaz bets $1,008.50 and is all-in, SUPERGEN62 calls $334.50 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC ]


RIVER [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC,2D ]


SHOWDOWN
Akulaz shows [ AD,AC ]
SUPERGEN62 shows [ 8H,8S ]
Akulaz wins $674, SUPERGEN62 wins $1,501.


As far as a tip for playing those tables. Wait for monster hands that can't be beat. Don't play crap no matter what. Wait until you have a full house, set, flush and then get your money in. Don't try and get people to fold, it won't happen.

Damn - calling off >50% of your stack preflop with 88, against a limp-reraise. And then spiking your set. Gotta love donkeys sometimes. :disgust:

True, especially online cards. It is ridiculous. People play too loose when no real money is involved.

**EDIT**
But BTW, don't just call on Pocket Rockets, raise at least enough to push people around a little. Maybe the guy would have mucked Snowmen if you raised before the flop. After the flop, then you could check to feel the other guy out instead of going all in. Going ALL IN unless you have a monstear hand is unwise. When you checked, he might have gone ALL IN, telling you he hit something like trips, especially if he called a raise before the flop.

**EDIT 2**
Oops you did raise preflop, but dang that is way too much to push people out. No reason to raise that much, you might as well go all in before the flop if that was the case. ALL IN before the flop if you were willing to put in $400 was more wise because it would usually make a guy with a low pair muck his cards.

 

[VenomXTF]

By calling almost 60% of his stack pre, he was commited, another words he was all in no matter what on the flop (and got super fing lucky). Complete donkey and he lost it all in the next couple hands (none of it back to me).

While, like I said there are always idiots at the 10 cent or 1000 dollar tables. The higher you go the more of the people know what they are doing. And the one that has no clue, always beats me.

 

[bhanson]

Originally posted by: VenomXTF
It doesn't matter what stakes you play at, there will always be idiots. Here is an example at a $1000 buyin NL game, with similar/same ****** at the $2000 or $5000 buyin.. I'm Akulaz btw.

Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (Real Money), #482,176,428

ANTES/BLINDS
olavhol posts blind ($5), StackinOff posts blind ($10).

PRE-FLOP
ladyfix folds, GordonS111 folds, Akulaz calls $10, mih2099 folds, i_ball folds, SUPERGEN62 bets $40, stoney110 folds, BIGJAY888 folds, olavhol folds, StackinOff folds, Akulaz bets $400, SUPERGEN62 calls $370.

FLOP [board cards 9C,4S,8D ]
Akulaz bets $1,008.50 and is all-in, SUPERGEN62 calls $334.50 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC ]


RIVER [board cards 9C,4S,8D,JC,2D ]


SHOWDOWN
Akulaz shows [ AD,AC ]
SUPERGEN62 shows [ 8H,8S ]
Akulaz wins $674, SUPERGEN62 wins $1,501.


As far as a tip for playing those tables. Wait for monster hands that can't be beat. Don't play crap no matter what. Wait until you have a full house, set, flush and then get your money in. Don't try and get people to fold, it won't happen.

I have lots of questions about this. When should I raise/call/fold pre-flop with what cards? I hate putting in more money in than the blinds pre-flop because it seems like I never get a good one (I guess I just don't know the odds).

If someone raises pre-flop what should I have to call/raise them? I guess I don't know if I have a monster hand until I can see the flop, correct?

Here's what I've been doing:

Small stack not in the blind:
Playing any two face cards, suited connectors (50% of the time), NOT playing A6, A8, etc. I'll sometimes play AT and am more willing to play it if it's suited.

Large stack not in the blind:
Same as above, except I'm more willing to pay to see the flop from an A7 or something.

 

[Dunbar]

-He was getting almost 8-to-1 to call you on the flop.
-On the turn he makes an open ended straight draw and you give him almost 5-to-1 odds to call. Which is about the same odds he has of making the straight.

I would have bet about about 1/3 of the pot on the flop to see where your jacks stood. If he raises you can put him on a king. If he calls you might put him on a draw. On the turn bet about 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot. That way you're giving him bad odds to draw to a straight. I probably would've folded on the river with so many straight cards out there (and the sudden change in the way he was betting.)

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Dunbar
-He was getting almost 8-to-1 to call you on the flop.
-On the turn he makes an open ended straight draw and you give him almost 5-to-1 odds to call. Which is about the same odds he has of making the straight.

I would have bet about about 1/3 of the pot on the flop to see where your jacks stood. If he raises you can put him on a king. If he calls you might put him on a draw. On the turn bet about 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot. That way you're giving him bad odds to draw to a straight. I probably would've folded on the river with so many straight cards out there (and the sudden change in the way he was betting.)

Actually he bet those numbers. With such small blinds it should have been the pot size on the flop. It is a good feeler bet with the amount of chips he has (only 10% of his chips really). That would more than likely have pushed him out.

But I do agree, it was an obvious muck hand on the river at least. Not many people would call such a large bet on the river in a real tournament game.