Did Christie make a mistake in cancelling the tunnel project?

[alphatarget1]

You're telling me. I was helping with a design project that involved building signal systems for road ways. A few times we had to relocate wires. Can you guess why? The city beautification guy said there was a tree there. Who the fuck cares? Tear that shit up. if it was a private job, they would just rip the tree up and put a tree somewhere else, but instead we had to reroute the wires over a longer distance, we had to basically double the cable size to adjust for voltage drop, and the project probably went up by about $10,000 just because of that. All over a fucking tree.

edit:
I don't mean a big tree with huge roots. I mean the kind of tree that is about 10 feet tall and was planted by the city. it has ver ylittle root structure and can easily be pulled out. Paying some student $10 per hour to dig it out and cut roots would cost the city maybe $100.

That's really retarded. The tree was probably planted recently. If it's not some 200-300 year old tree I don't see the need to "save" it. People need to publicize this shit and put the heat on retarded public officials so they stop wasting our money.

I used to work for a city to survey curb ramps. They hired 3 interns for 3 months at about $2000 a pop. Some asshole was going around suing cities because most curb ramps are not ADA compliant. I understand that if a curb ramp is in need of repairs, an ADA compliant one should be put in. They ended up putting all the compliance info in a plan that'll fix them all up in something like 100 years. They couldn't come up with some other plan to maybe hire some volunteers/minimum wage people to ensure that handicapped people can have adequate access. People don 't really use the sidewalk all that much anyway. Fail.

 

[ichy]

*sigh*

We used to build shit in this country...

 

[K1052]

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to cancel a project that has already been planned for so long. I'm involved in the industry (sort of) and civil engineer projects only benefit my profession. With that said, I just think that DOTs/Agencies need to do a much better job explaining to people how much things will (potentially) cost. I used to live in the SF Bay Area and the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge was originally projected to cost 700 million. It'll be 3 years late and it's estimated to cost 5.4 billion now. That's a 770% overrun. Did construction materials prices skyrocket by 770% during that time period? Labor costs certainly didn't. Some politics (Schwarzenegger tried to make them change the design so it becomes cheaper) slowed the construction, but I think that's just a drop in the bucket. How is that acceptable to taxpayers?

With that said, interest rates are pretty low right now still. It'd probably make more sense to sell bonds and pay it off with inflated dollars later on.

As for the Eastern Span replacement for the Bay Bridge: Unique design, rise in steel/concrete prices, only one contractor even willing to build said unique design, and hoards of governmental read tape is how it got that far out of hand. All in all a terribly conceived and managed project which (like the big dig) has set benchmarks for what not to do.

The I-35 bridge replacement in MN, for example, on the other hand came on time and under estimates.

 

[ShawnD1]

I think the projects go over because they base it on how private companies do engineering jobs. Private companies often try to keep it simple; we want this, this, and this, now do it. Public jobs are micromanaged. First they want a bridge, then they want it to be a bit wider, then they want it slightly stronger, then they want to widen it again to make room for trees, then they want to widen it again to add bicycle lanes, etc.

Cities don't seem to have a "let's think about this" phase. Instead of figuring out all of the desired specs before engineering starts, they start the engineering right away. A classic example of this is in the ring road around my city. They built a ring road and they put a bunch of traffic lights at key intersections (highways). This obviously was a horrible idea. It caused major traffic problems because several hundred cars in 2 lanes are going from 70mph to a dead stop about 3 times withinin a couple miles. Now they're ripping up the intersections, taking out the traffic lights, and building overpasses like they should have originally done.

The old saying is true. Measure twice, cut once. Do it right the first time.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

No. As a CT taxpayer I strongly urge that Christie do everything he can to send NYC's business-and money-our way. You guys can keep the Sopranos if you want.

lol what infrastructure does CT have to handle more commuters? clearly your joking.

 

[GroundedSailor]

I think the projects go over because they base it on how private companies do engineering jobs. Private companies often try to keep it simple; we want this, this, and this, now do it. Public jobs are micromanaged. First they want a bridge, then they want it to be a bit wider, then they want it slightly stronger, then they want to widen it again to make room for trees, then they want to widen it again to add bicycle lanes, etc.

Cities don't seem to have a "let's think about this" phase. Instead of figuring out all of the desired specs before engineering starts, they start the engineering right away. A classic example of this is in the ring road around my city. They built a ring road and they put a bunch of traffic lights at key intersections (highways). This obviously was a horrible idea. It caused major traffic problems because several hundred cars in 2 lanes are going from 70mph to a dead stop about 3 times withinin a couple miles. Now they're ripping up the intersections, taking out the traffic lights, and building overpasses like they should have originally done.

The old saying is true. Measure twice, cut once. Do it right the first time.

Are you even aware that public projects, big and small, are designed by engineers in the private sector? That the engineering for any project is bid and awarded well before any construction bids are put out?

It's not about city bureaucrats sitting around changing their mind. They leave all that upto the engineering firm they hire.

..

 

[alphatarget1]

As for the Eastern Span replacement for the Bay Bridge: Unique design, rise in steel/concrete prices, only one contractor even willing to build said unique design, and hoards of governmental read tape is how it got that far out of hand. All in all a terribly conceived and managed project which (like the big dig) has set benchmarks for what not to do.

I understand that. So why didn't key people in the MTC (metropolitan transportation commission) and Caltrans resign/get fired for screwing CA taxpayers? If a private company did something like that, they'd probably go BK. There is NO accountability in government. Fire overpaid bureaucrats who are incompetent anyway.

I don't know much about Christie. I applaud him for fighting unions but all in all, I think shutting down the project is most likely to be a mistake. If it's indeed so vital to NJ's future, why can't they think of some creative ways to finance it? Float a callable bond for the maximum expected cost overrun and if the funds aren't exhausted, call the bond and pay it off? Make the riders pay higher fares to pay for the cost overruns? I don't know.

 

[alphatarget1]

Are you even aware that public projects, big and small, are designed by engineers in the private sector?

..

Not necessarily. Some cities have in-house engineering departments to do engineering work. It all depends on what kind of project it is, how big it is, and stuff like that.

 

[ModestGamer]

Pretty sure cost overruns were going to be double or something like that.

I would've liked this project to go through, but I'm glad christie is watching the budget like a hawk. Some elected official in NJ needed too for once. Perhaps he was overzealous here, but unless it's built we can't be sure how much it's going to cost, but NJ it will definitely overrun. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

Hire the road crews from vegas, i'd bet they could get it done early and under budget. I once watched them pave 2 direction miles of 6 liane highway including the 2 lane on and off ramps next to the strip in 14 hours.

Just becuase NJ and NY and PA and MD have lazy fucking slobs for road crews, doesn't mean the rest of the world does.

 

[K1052]

lol what infrastructure does CT have to handle more commuters? clearly your joking.

The New Haven Line is a prime candidate for major investment, due to old bridges, close track spacing, old electrical supply systems, and tight turns (all of which limit speed on the NEC). Improvements in these areas would speed Metro-North and Amtrak commutes substantially. The three underused branches in CT would also be of interest for expansion and improvement since Metro-North stands to benefit from NJ's short-sightedness.

If the MTA can secure additional funding for the Second Ave Subway from the Feds due to NJ, WI, OH, and FL rejecting billions in rail capital construction then the New Haven Line would become a top priority for the MTA/Amtrak.

Edit: Apparently NY sentators are already lobbying La Hood to redirect the $3B grant to the NYC projects already underway.

 

[K1052]

I understand that. So why didn't key people in the MTC (metropolitan transportation commission) and Caltrans resign/get fired for screwing CA taxpayers? If a private company did something like that, they'd probably go BK. There is NO accountability in government. Fire overpaid bureaucrats who are incompetent anyway.

I don't know much about Christie. I applaud him for fighting unions but all in all, I think shutting down the project is most likely to be a mistake. If it's indeed so vital to NJ's future, why can't they think of some creative ways to finance it? Float a callable bond for the maximum expected cost overrun and if the funds aren't exhausted, call the bond and pay it off? Make the riders pay higher fares to pay for the cost overruns? I don't know.

He killed it to increase his Tea Party cred, piss on the executive branch, and take the 2.7B state comitment to replenish the bankrupt NJ transportation fund (not a long term fix). NJ will have to live with that decision while he will not.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Are you even aware that public projects, big and small, are designed by engineers in the private sector? That the engineering for any project is bid and awarded well before any construction bids are put out?

It's not about city bureaucrats sitting around changing their mind. They leave all that upto the engineering firm they hire.

..

Not necessarily. Some cities have in-house engineering departments to do engineering work. It all depends on what kind of project it is, how big it is, and stuff like that.

Yes some may have their own in-house engineering dept, but for any project they prefer to have an outside PE sign off on the design. I suspect that it is primarily for liability issues.

Where I work we bid on a lot of public sector construction projects and I have yet to see one project without a private sector PE designing and signing off on the design.

..

 

[ShawnD1]

Are you even aware that public projects, big and small, are designed by engineers in the private sector? That the engineering for any project is bid and awarded well before any construction bids are put out?

It's not about city bureaucrats sitting around changing their mind. They leave all that upto the engineering firm they hire.

..

Yes I'm aware. I work for one of those companies. We work together with the city retards who keep changing the specs, change the drawing standards, tellings us where not to put things, etc. I've drawn the same shit probably 10x over because the city keeps bugging us.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

it is easy for anyone outside of NJ to comment about how this was a poor decision.
you guys aren't the ones paying the highest property taxes in the nation.

 

[nick1985]

Can the state afford the tunnel? If not, then it was a good idea.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

The New Haven Line is a prime candidate for major investment, due to old bridges, close track spacing, old electrical supply systems, and tight turns (all of which limit speed on the NEC). Improvements in these areas would speed Metro-North and Amtrak commutes substantially. The three underused branches in CT would also be of interest for expansion and improvement since Metro-North stands to benefit from NJ's short-sightedness.

If the MTA can secure additional funding for the Second Ave Subway from the Feds due to NJ, WI, OH, and FL rejecting billions in rail capital construction then the New Haven Line would become a top priority for the MTA/Amtrak.

Edit: Apparently NY sentators are already lobbying La Hood to redirect the $3B grant to the NYC projects already underway.

I frequently ride the new haven line and I agreee it is way long over due. The cars haven't been upgrade in 3 or 4 decades. The trains get stuck all the time. I've been stuck for hours in the middle of heat wave on an unairconditioned car for hours.

I'd love nothing more than high speed modern trains from springfield to hartford to nyc. They did recently get a federal grant we'll see what happens. Its years off in any case.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Can the state afford the tunnel? If not, then it was a good idea.

the flipside: Can the state afford not to build a new tunnel?

 

[nyker96]

After recently canceling the first tunnel project from NYC to NJ in decades many have lauded the NJ politician for cutting the spending. I do know he objected to NY not paying enough on their end but was canceling a much needed infrastructure project a short term political decision or a good long term strategy?

this type of thing is impossible to project or calculate. You are looking at opportunity costs to businesses and economy. Hard to say if a piece of infrastructure will pay itself back or not. But one thing is for sure, no country can cut itself to prosperity. Eventually 1st rate economic powerhouses will have 1st rate transportation/manufacturing infrastructures comparing to 3rd world countries. Like all businesses, you need to invest to get return. zero investment = zero risk = zero return. But if you ask is this piece of investment a high/low/negative return investment. Who knows, maybe some economists can tell. I certainly have no idea.

 

[manimal]

the flipside: Can the state afford not to build a new tunnel?

Maybe this is Christie trying to keep quality employees in NJ by making it harder as population grows to stay instate.



nah..

 

[nageov3t]

no one is going to trade their $1000/month 2-bedroom with parking for a $1500/month roach-infested studio in Manhattan because their train ride into NYC... remained exactly the same as it has for the past 20 years.

 

[K1052]

no one is going to trade their $1000/month 2-bedroom with parking for a $1500/month roach-infested studio in Manhattan because their train ride into NYC... remained exactly the same as it has for the past 20 years.

Presumably the NYC metro area will grow somewhat in population over the next 30 years. Given the importance of transit access (particularly into NYC) in the region at large most of those people aren't going to want to live in a place with the longest commutes/most transfers.

The Port Authority can squeeze some more capacity out of PATH but that will limit most development to the immediate areas it serves just across the Hudson.

 

[nageov3t]

Christie talked about this for a bit on Meet the Press today... basically what he said was that the vast majority of the funding would have come from the NJ state budget, no one could tell him how much the overruns were going to be, and it would have had to have been paid for by increasing fares and tolls across the board.

 

[theeedude]

What's pissing me off is that Ray LaHood is still trying to convince NJ to take the money, instead of taking No for an answer and spending it elsewhere.

 

[K1052]

Well he just spent $350M that has to be repaid to the Feds immediately on absolutely nothing. Combine with the $400M grant he blew from the education funding and soon you're talking about real money.

There would have been the debt service to worry about but with the project likely bonded out for the next 35-50 years at historically low rates. Nobody "knows" what the final cost would be until it is done. The bids were coming in below estimate and the engineering was complete so unless some highly unusual things went on in the Manhattan end the last estimate of $1B over budget would probably have held. Considering the Feds were going to essentially trade NJ for other related infrastructure improvements up to that figure it would have essentially been a wash.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Well he just spent $350M that has to be repaid to the Feds immediately on absolutely nothing. Combine with the $400M grant he blew from the education funding and soon you're talking about real money.

There would have been the debt service to worry about but with the project likely bonded out for the next 35-50 years at historically low rates. Nobody "knows" what the final cost would be until it is done. The bids were coming in below estimate and the engineering was complete so unless some highly unusual things went on in the Manhattan end the last estimate of $1B over budget would probably have held. Considering the Feds were going to essentially trade NJ for other related infrastructure improvements up to that figure it would have essentially been a wash.

Time out the project was 1b over before it started....how can use that as grounds to say it wont go beyond that once they break ground. What government project of this magnitude ever stayed on time on budget? Seriously? If they are 1b over budget on the easy stuff what happens when the they've started the build and real life set backs happen.