Just curious here. There seems to be a lot of you people that believe that Bush mislead the world to go to war, but don't care. Do you feel it's ok for our president to do this?
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Find me the post of anyone here who has ever said GWB is the "greatest president this country has EVER seen" and I'll show you the biggest moron to grace this board.And to answer this "unscientific Internet Poll" question - yes.
I think that there are situations where a president has to lie to his people for the greater good. Pearl Harbor, for example.
but whether or not the Iraq war is one of those situations is still up in the air.
So your saying yes he did on both counts but you dont care?
Why not? What justifies the war if we were in no danger?
Do you just like seeing americans die for no reason?
Have you renounced God and taken the devil as your savior?
Greater good? What greater good has come from Iraq? Are you talking about the greater good of the Iraqi people? Well I guess in the LONG run you are right, but does that mean we are going to invade every country that is doing horrible things to its people in the name of the greater good? If that is the case, we better start the draft and get about 200 Million because taking over the world is not going to be easy.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
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The greater good has not been demonstrated by any means.
I have no tolerence for liars that kill tens of thousands on a whim. If he did deceive us, he should be in jail, as he caused people to lie under oath before Congress.
"Greater good? What greater good has come from Iraq? Are you talking about the greater good of the Iraqi people? Well I guess in the LONG run you are right..."
Even that is an assumption. The Iraqi people may indeed end up worse off because of our invasion. Before the invasion of Afghanistan by the soviets, the country had a relatively progressive government. Even women could vote there. After the invasion, the Taliban was in charge, and women were forced to wear Burkas, and they couldn't leave the house unless accompanied by a male close relative, according to the oppressive law of the Taliban. Let me ask...do you think the Iraqi people are better off with a Saddam style government or a Taliban-style government? Would you rather live under Saddam or the Taliban?
So even an "ends justify the means" argument is lame, because we are finding out on a daily basis that the means completely sucked, and the ENDS are still unknown, no matter how long we choose to occupy Iraq.
However, I must say, that given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.
The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.
However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.
Even that is an assumption. The Iraqi people may indeed end up worse off because of our invasion. Before the invasion of Afghanistan by the soviets, the country had a relatively progressive government. Even women could vote there. After the invasion, the Taliban was in charge, and women were forced to wear Burkas, and they couldn't leave the house unless accompanied by a male close relative, according to the oppressive law of the Taliban. Let me ask...do you think the Iraqi people are better off with a Saddam style government or a Taliban-style government? Would you rather live under Saddam or the Taliban?
So even an "ends justify the means" argument is lame, because we are finding out on a daily basis that the means completely sucked, and the ENDS are still unknown, no matter how long we choose to occupy Iraq.
However, I must say, that given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.
The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.
However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.
No, he did not. In fact the Japanese were still in negotiation with the US at the time of the attack; FDR was reluctant to become involved in the war at all and was thus far content with mere arms smuggling to Britain. He would enter the war when Britain was in danger of being overrun by the Nazis, the Pacific front wasn't even considered a serious theatre of war.
MacArthur had to rapidly whip the Pacific Fleet in to shape in order to open that front - everyone was convinced that the war would be waged on the European front against the Nazis. In fact Hitler himself didn't want the Japanese to attack America because he feared American involvement.
The Japanese attacked precisely because it was unexpected and America was especially weak.
What does a leader who wants to get involved in a war do prior to declaring war? Just look at Hitler - he declares peace yet rapidly builds the military. America, on the other hand, was unprepared and we had to quickly mobilize for the war (which was now on 2 fronts, which no sane military commander would have wanted - see Bush, Iraq, Iran).
So at best we are left with the idea that maybe FDR became tipped off by radio traffic minutes to hours before the attack itself. What could he have done? The base wasn't prepared for a surprise attack, and couldn't be readied in time.
FDR did not know. However he did go on to plan, along with Russia and England, the entire rest of the war (see Yalta conference). He was a decisive Commander-In-Chief who made provisions to continue the war past his own death.
Now that was a real war President!
See, this is what happens when you stop teaching people to think critically - nutty conspiracy theories are passed around like common currency.
Pick up a book or two about the time.
I got it, what about Bill Clinton? He lied to everyone and got impeached (not one shot was fired, and no one died)! Bush, however, according to you is allowed to lie in order to free the Iraqi people (were 1700+ American troops + XXX Iraqi Civilians + XXX coalition forces died) because it is the 'greater good'?
Yes, I know. Bill Clinton did not lie because of the 'greater good' he did so (stupidly) because it was her personal life, and not (or shouldn't have been) a National issue. But the fact remains the same, Clinton got a BJ and lied about it = Impeached, however Bush may have lied and it is ok?
I must have blacked out of that stage of my life where I was a member of the house of representatives and personally voted to impeach Bill Clinton... :Q
I never said that you were. But the point that you were making is that it is ok to lie to the people, and I just said that clinton lied and got impeached.
Why would Churchill who:
a) was being outright decimated by the Nazi blitzkrieg
b) isn't even on the same ocean or flight route as Japan
c) focused entirely on surviving the Nazi assault
spend time trying to decode Japanese communications? Especially before they had broken the Nazi encryption?
Why is it so hard to accept that nobody other than the Japanese knew about the Pearl Harbor attack prior to it happening?
It was a surprise attack. The Japanese barely told Hitler.
Here's a clue - a surprise attack that everyone knows about isn't a surprise.
As said above... "See, this is what happens when you stop teaching people to think critically - nutty conspiracy theories are passed around like common currency. "
Ahh, basic name-calling and obfuscation from the right. Moonbats and morons, along with the FDR conspiracy theory...
Unscientific as it is, the poll confirms that the majority of people now realize that they've been lied to about Iraq... The real question is whether or not they'll realize that the rest of the Rightwing agenda is being sold on the same basis, and whether or not they'll remember when they get to a voting booth...
Fearmongering, Flagwaving and Fiscal insanity will only carry a political party just so far... For anybody who still believes these guys, I'd suggest checking on your duct tape and plastic sheeting- the stuff gets old and brittle, never know when you're going to need it...
Unscientific as it is, the poll confirms that the majority of people now realize that they've been lied to about Iraq... The real question is whether or not they'll realize that the rest of the Rightwing agenda is being sold on the same basis, and whether or not they'll remember when they get to a voting booth...
Fearmongering, Flagwaving and Fiscal insanity will only carry a political party just so far... For anybody who still believes these guys, I'd suggest checking on your duct tape and plastic sheeting- the stuff gets old and brittle, never know when you're going to need it...
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