Dictator-In-Chief thinks police should not be militarized

[Newell Steamer]

sounds like you suffer from what you claim conservatives do.

I have actual proof. And, not the kind I tell you to go and find yourself.

Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/webhp?source...&ie=UTF-8#q=mexican+cartels+beheading&tbm=nws NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/georgia-courthouse-shooting/

Bombs are being made out of house hold items - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Enjoy.

 

[Texashiker]

I have actual proof. And, not the kind I tell you to go and find yourself.

Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...sm=93&ie=UTF-8 NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

Links are broke.

 

[fskimospy]

I have actual proof. And, not the kind I tell you to go and find yourself.

Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...sm=93&ie=UTF-8 NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

Bombs are being made out of house hold items - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Enjoy.

Do you think those incidents justify a mass, nationwide militarization of police? How many people do you think have been injured or killed by police using "upgraded" weapons and tactics as opposed to how many lives have been saved by them?

 

[Thebobo]

What difference does it make?

Regardless of who is operating the equipment, it is military equipment being used on civilians.

:thumbsup:

 

[Newell Steamer]

Links are broke.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/georgia-courthouse-shooting/

One example of Mexican Cartels beheading;
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ost-atrocities-social-media-article-1.1515860

 

[Newell Steamer]

Do you think those incidents justify a mass, nationwide militarization of police? How many people do you think have been injured or killed by police using "upgraded" weapons and tactics as opposed to how many lives have been saved by them?

I don't see anything that is 'nationwide' and 'mass' in NYC. Sure, I see SWAT in heavy gear from time to time. But, there aren't roving teams of SWAT kicking down doors and just killing random civilians - like most critics of law enforcement here make it out to be.

Where cops ARE killing and harming people, it is due to fuck ups on their end. This does not excuse their homicides, but, cops are people. I am not sure where and how such a high standard of flawless performance is expected from cops. And, they certainly should be subject to charges for their killings of innocent civilains.

Critics want cops to:
- not be heavily armed
- stop criminals who are heavily armed
- stop any other type of criminal
- not make ANY mistakes that may harm civilians

,... all with a just hand gun.

Let me guess, are cops suppose to be able to shoot weapons out of criminal's hands as well?

Please, let us be realistic about what we expect from cops. Because the alternative - which I have yet to see a viable one - is just not there.

 

[nyker96]

If the police start using lethal force whenever they wishes, theyll slowly become the judge and executioner essentially vigilantes instead of letting a jury and the court decide the fate of the accused. This type of thing will circumvent the judicial system and lead to an anarchist society that favors whoever holds the gun. Even if you hold a gun you still have to abide by the law, that's just the foundation of any stable modern civilized society.

If the criminals are heavily armed, then it's a job for SWAT team, not regular patrol cops who should disengage and call the SWATs. But the fact that SWATs are rarely deployed in a city and only in special circumstances tells you that heavily armed confrontation within population centers usually results in a lot of collateral casualties not something taken lightly.

the use of extreme force against your own citizens like China/Russia done in the past is usually not sign of a democratic society. Lethal force should never be employed lightly especially against your own citizen.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't see anything that is 'nationwide' and 'mass' in NYC. Sure, I see SWAT in heavy gear from time to time. But, there aren't roving teams of SWAT kicking down doors and just killing random civilians - like most critics of law enforcement here make it out to be.

What part of town do you live in? Police tactics vary widely by neighborhood. The police weren't very nice where I used to live, haha. While you may think that SWAT teams aren't kicking down doors all the time, the number of SWAT raids nationwide has been skyrocketing in recent years.

Where cops ARE killing and harming people, it is due to fuck ups on their end. This does not excuse their homicides, but, cops are people. I am not sure where and how such a high standard of flawless performance is expected from cops. And, they certainly should be subject to charges for their killings of innocent civilains.

I think police tactics have changed to where these situations are more likely.

Critics want cops to:
- not be heavily armed
- stop criminals who are heavily armed
- stop any other type of criminal
- not make ANY mistakes that may harm civilians

,... all with a just hand gun.

Let me guess, are cops suppose to be able to shoot weapons out of criminal's hands as well?

Please, let us be realistic about what we expect from cops. Because the alternative - which I have yet to see a viable one - is just not there.

No, people want cops to use the appropriate level of force. That's not happening here.

 

[Texashiker]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/georgia-courthouse-shooting/

One example of Mexican Cartels beheading;
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ost-atrocities-social-media-article-1.1515860

You are going to use crimes in mexico and the actions of a lone crazy to justify local police using military equipment?

 

[Sonikku]

If people would stand against the War on Drugs the militarization would be unnecessary. Now, go look at who actively lobbies against the legalization of marijuana and then tell me the actual reason the War on Drugs is never ending. Now apply this new realization to the War on Terror and think about what it means for this country, long term.

We need to wage war on the war on drugs and terror.

 

[Jmman]

If you ask me, and I have a little insight into it since I work for a governmental entity, I think the Hollywood bank robbery of a few years back really has pushed law enforcement agencies to acquire heavier gear. Those two ex Russian military bank robbers armed with heavy machine guns and body armor absolutely overpowered the police. If I remember correctly, the police had to go to a gun store to get rifles that were capable of penetrating the body armor that those guys were wearing......

Most of the gear that the police are getting from the military are not missile launchers either. Bullet proof vehicles and rifles along with a mix of blankets, etc. seem to be the norm.

http://www.live5news.com/story/26311353/1997-ca-bank-robbery-led-to-police-militarization

 

[Newell Steamer]

What part of town do you live in? Police tactics vary widely by neighborhood. The police weren't very nice where I used to live, haha. While you may think that SWAT teams aren't kicking down doors all the time, the number of SWAT raids nationwide has been skyrocketing in recent years.

Queens - and crime has increased quite a bit in the last 5 or so years. I still don't see heavy armored police forces.

Also, raids on who? Random innocent civilians? Or, suspects? And out of those suspects, how many where innocent - not charges were filed and then found innocent - but, actually innocent, as in the cops picked the wrong house and they screwed up.

I chalk those raids up to American's drug appetite. And, we then move into the drug war debate. Which I feel certain drugs should indeed be legalized.

I think police tactics have changed to where these situations are more likely.

So, there is a heavily armed illegal drug lab on the corner of 5th ave and 185th street - do the police show up in pea shooters and segways and if they get shot up THEN armor up? Or, do they show up armored before taking the lab down? Their tactics will come from their preparedness. You can't prepare after the shit hits the fan.

And, this is reality. Drug barons have been heavily arming their people for quite a while now.

No, people want cops to use the appropriate level of force. That's not happening here.

It is very unfortunate when the wrong person is mistreated by overzealous police - I would never doubt/dispute that - but, it will happen. What is the rate of the wrongly arrested and abused truly innocent people? Not charged and found innocent, but, again, the wrong house was raided, etc.

 

[Texashiker]

Also, raids on who? Random innocent civilians? Or, suspects? And out of those suspects, how many where innocent - not charges were filed and then found innocent - but, actually innocent, as in the cops picked the wrong house and they screwed up.

Such as the baby who had the flashbang grenade go off in its crib?

Now the city is refusing to pay the babies medical bills.

 

[Newell Steamer]

You are going to use crimes in mexico and the actions of a lone crazy to justify local police using military equipment?

It is not a lone crazy - this is common practice of mexican cartels.

Oh, wait,.. and it's actually already here;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-U-S-drug-assassin-pleads-contest-murder.html

 

[Newell Steamer]

Such as the baby who had the flashbang grenade go off in its crib?

Now the city is refusing to pay the babies medical bills.

And, they should be held accountable for that. I would never dismiss it or downplay it.

 

[Texashiker]

It is not a lone crazy - this is common practice of mexican cartels.

Oh, wait,.. and it's actually already here;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-U-S-drug-assassin-pleads-contest-murder.html

And?

This should allow the police to use military equipment against protesting citizens?

And, they should be held accountable for that. I would never dismiss it or downplay it.

But you are excusing it.

 

[Genx87]

Here you go,..

Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...sm=93&ie=UTF-8 NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

Bombs are being made out of house hold items - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

And, I am not advocating anything you cooked up. I am all for being prepared and ready for when something terrible will happen,.. like in the above links.

Your first two links dont work. And how would a militarized cop stop the Boston Marathon bombing?

 

[Newell Steamer]

And?
This should allow the police to use military equipment against protesting citizens?

Nope - I never said that either.

But you are excusing it.

Reasons don't excuse anything - you are reaching,.. go back to your chickens.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Your first two links dont work. And how would a militarized cop stop the Boston Marathon bombing?

These should work,... my bad.
Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/webhp?source...&ie=UTF-8#q=mexican+cartels+beheading&tbm=nws NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/georgia-courthouse-shooting/

Bombs are being made out of house hold items - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Re-read this,...

I am all for being prepared and ready for when something terrible will happen

I am not expecting military equipment to stop anything - thus my use of the words will happen.

When things go horribly bad, what is a short sleeved shirt and a handgun going to do against someone with explosives and an automatic rifle?

 

[BoberFett]

If you ask me, and I have a little insight into it since I work for a governmental entity, I think the Hollywood bank robbery of a few years back really has pushed law enforcement agencies to acquire heavier gear. Those two ex Russian military bank robbers armed with heavy machine guns and body armor absolutely overpowered the police. If I remember correctly, the police had to go to a gun store to get rifles that were capable of penetrating the body armor that those guys were wearing......

Most of the gear that the police are getting from the military are not missile launchers either. Bullet proof vehicles and rifles along with a mix of blankets, etc. seem to be the norm.

http://www.live5news.com/story/26311353/1997-ca-bank-robbery-led-to-police-militarization

And the only people killed in the North Hollywood shootout were... wait for it... the heavily armed criminals.

 

[Genx87]

These should work,... my bad.
Criminal organizations are decapitating people - NSFW https://www.google.com/webhp?source...&ie=UTF-8#q=mexican+cartels+beheading&tbm=nws NSFW

Terrorists are strapping on body armor and firing off heavy arms while charging into city hall with explosives - http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/georgia-courthouse-shooting/

Bombs are being made out of house hold items - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Re-read this,...

I am not expecting military equipment to stop anything - thus my use of the words will happen.

When things go horribly bad, what is a short sleeved shirt and a handgun going to do against someone with explosives and an automatic rifle?

The armored car will be after the fact. You are acting as if possessing these military items makes a difference in any of your fears.

What is a cop in a short sleeved shirt going to do after a bomb goes off? I hope render aid to the local population that was hit. What is an armored car going to do after a bomb goes off?

 

[BoberFett]

Damn, this thread smells like shit!

Oh, it's just Newell Steamer dropping another load.


There is nothing in this post but an unprovoked personal attack.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[SlowSpyder]

Queens - and crime has increased quite a bit in the last 5 or so years. I still don't see heavy armored police forces.

Also, raids on who? Random innocent civilians? Or, suspects? And out of those suspects, how many where innocent - not charges were filed and then found innocent - but, actually innocent, as in the cops picked the wrong house and they screwed up.

I don't have any numbers. But I bet I can find a lot more examples of police over using force than you can find examples of Americans running in to city hall with bombs strapped to their bodies.

I chalk those raids up to American's drug appetite. And, we then move into the drug war debate. Which I feel certain drugs should indeed be legalized.


So, there is a heavily armed illegal drug lab on the corner of 5th ave and 185th street - do the police show up in pea shooters and segways and if they get shot up THEN armor up? Or, do they show up armored before taking the lab down? Their tactics will come from their preparedness. You can't prepare after the shit hits the fan.

And, this is reality. Drug barons have been heavily arming their people for quite a while now.

The bigger question is why is there an illegal lab there? (hint: the war on drugs is why) America's drug appetite isn't going to go away, at least not any time soon. So it would make sense to have laws that make sense and reasonable ways to get people who want to stop off of drugs. Tossing them in jail and giving them a record for the rest of their lives isn't the answer.

It is very unfortunate when the wrong person is mistreated by overzealous police - I would never doubt/dispute that - but, it will happen. What is the rate of the wrongly arrested and abused truly innocent people? Not charged and found innocent, but, again, the wrong house was raided, etc.

I'm not unrealistic, I don't expect perfection. But there is clearly a lot of room for improvement.

 

[Newell Steamer]

The armored car will be after the fact. You are acting as if possessing these military items makes a difference in any of your fears.

What is a cop in a short sleeved shirt going to do after a bomb goes off? I hope render aid to the local population that was hit. What is an armored car going to do after a bomb goes off?

So, explosion 1 goes off - and there is no need to protect yourself from additional explosions? Or, heavy fire from an armed criminal. Ever.

Well, that settles it then! If you say a short sleeve shirt and a hand gun is enough to deal with mexican drug lords, terrorists and what not - then it's a done deal! You should be running the country - you clearly know where it's at.

Thanks for clearing it up! And, let us know when you and your armchair wisdom is scheduled to turn this country around - you get my vote.

:awe:

 

[Genx87]

So, explosion 1 goes off - and there is no need to protect yourself from additional explosions? Or, heavy fire from an armed criminal. Ever.

Well, that settles it then! If you say a short sleeve shirt and a hand gun is enough to deal with mexican drug lords, terrorists and what not - then it's a done deal! You should be running the country - you clearly know where it's at.

Thanks for clearing it up! And, let us know when you and your armchair wisdom is scheduled to turn this country around - you get my vote.

:awe:

I think you and Moonie should have a talk. Clearly you have a conservative brain that is scared.

If I were running the country the drug war would end. No more cartels.
I'd also get us out of the ME. Boom, terrorists lose a reason to come at us.


PS you watch too many movies.