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DHS orders 450 million hollow-point bullets; doesn't explain why

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Lemon law said:
" Enemy combatants " ( aka known as terrorists ) are not normally covered by the Geneva convention and that was basically the GWB position.

But I really question this purchase for 40 caliber hollow points as they are almost only used for pistol rounds. Pistols may be useful at only short ranges, making them almost useless in military type combat.
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Look at the organizations under DHS. Most only use pistols. they may ahve backup rifles; but the sidearm is primary
 
ShockwaveVT said:
Why don't you do a little research instead of whining on the internet about how there's no legit use for that many rounds of ammo? No you have no clue what it takes to ensure we have highly trained federal law enforcement agents and apparently you can't be bothered to lift a finger & find out...

Well, here's a start for you....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security#Structure

Customs & Border Protection (CBP): 21,000 Customs Officers, 21,000 Border Patrol, 1,000 Interdiction = 43,000 armed law enforcement agents
Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE): 8,500 HSI agents, + ?? ERO agents (no # listed on wiki, but figure 2,500+ since they operate nationwide) = 10,000+ armed law enforcement agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center = training site for over 90 Federal Law Enforcement Agencies.

So you have right there in 5 minutes, over 53,000 armed law enforcement agents, all of whom must complete mandatory firearms training, and plenty of whom probably do extra training. Then you've got service weapons, armories and such to stock in case of emergency. Oh and then you've got a large training center that includes a lot of range time.


And that's not even counting the Coast Guard or the Federal Air Marshal Service or the Secret Service. You don't think the Secret Service guys live at the range when not on detail?

And finally when your life is potentially on the line (or the lives of citizens you're trying to protect) You Train as realistically as possible - which means becoming intimately familiar with the operation of your firearm with it's service ammunition.

Gimme a fuckin break.
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Too many. We need to take a buzz saw to the DHS budget. DHS is grossly outsized to its mission.
 
IronWing said:
Too many. We need to take a buzz saw to the DHS budget. DHS is grossly outsized to its mission.
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Define what is their mission!

Look at the agencies and see where you want to cut.
Most of those agencies existed prior to the DHS - they were just folded in under one umbrella.
 
EagleKeeper said:
Define what is their mission!

Look at the agencies and see where you want to cut.
Most of those agencies existed prior to the DHS - they were just folded in under one umbrella.
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Break them back up to remove the extra layers of overhead. Then reduce the agencies back to their pre-9/11 levels. Fear and panic (in Congress) is no way to allocate resources long term.
 
As far as I know, TSA is the only new agency added to the mix.
And you have the umbrella DHS.

DHS was used to pull multiple groups under a single director to "improve" coordination between them.

And on the topic of the thread; a single bulk purchase will get a better rate than 6-8 different agencies looking to purchase each year.
 
ShockwaveVT said:
Why don't you do a little research instead of whining on the internet about how there's no legit use for that many rounds of ammo? No you have no clue what it takes to ensure we have highly trained federal law enforcement agents and apparently you can't be bothered to lift a finger & find out...

Well, here's a start for you....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security#Structure

Customs & Border Protection (CBP): 21,000 Customs Officers, 21,000 Border Patrol, 1,000 Interdiction = 43,000 armed law enforcement agents
Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE): 8,500 HSI agents, + ?? ERO agents (no # listed on wiki, but figure 2,500+ since they operate nationwide) = 10,000+ armed law enforcement agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center = training site for over 90 Federal Law Enforcement Agencies.

So you have right there in 5 minutes, over 53,000 armed law enforcement agents, all of whom must complete mandatory firearms training, and plenty of whom probably do extra training. Then you've got service weapons, armories and such to stock in case of emergency. Oh and then you've got a large training center that includes a lot of range time.


And that's not even counting the Coast Guard or the Federal Air Marshal Service or the Secret Service. You don't think the Secret Service guys live at the range when not on detail?

And finally when your life is potentially on the line (or the lives of citizens you're trying to protect) You Train as realistically as possible - which means becoming intimately familiar with the operation of your firearm with it's service ammunition.

Gimme a fuckin break.
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I'll give you a fucking break when you read the rest of my posts. The buy was not for ammo suited for pratice (cheap FMJ ammo), but instead was for HP ammo. This means they DHS plans to be in enough firefights over the term of the contract to use 400+ Million rounds of ammo. That is not feasible to me.

If our government is wasting money on HP ammo for practice and training, then we need to stop arguing about how much in taxes the rich should pay, and instead start arguing to cut the DHS budget.

I'll say it one more time until I instill it, there is no fucking reason to shoot HP ammo at the range. It's way too expensive, it's not as 'green' and it's way too expensive.
 
sourceninja said:
I'll give you a fucking break when you read the rest of my posts. The buy was not for ammo suited for pratice (cheap FMJ ammo), but instead was for HP ammo. This means they DHS plans to be in enough firefights over the term of the contract to use 400+ Million rounds of ammo. That is not feasible to me.

If our government is wasting money on HP ammo for practice and training, then we need to stop arguing about how much in taxes the rich should pay, and instead start arguing to cut the DHS budget.

I'll say it one more time until I instill it, there is no fucking reason to shoot HP ammo at the range. It's way too expensive, it's not as 'green' and it's way too expensive.
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in a huge bulk order like that, i'm sure its just as cheap if not cheaper to shoot at the range. It may be expensive for you and I to shoot JHP's at the range, but if you buy 450 million at the range i'm sure its dirt cheap.
 
sourceninja said:
I'll give you a fucking break when you read the rest of my posts. The buy was not for ammo suited for pratice (cheap FMJ ammo), but instead was for HP ammo. This means they DHS plans to be in enough firefights over the term of the contract to use 400+ Million rounds of ammo. That is not feasible to me.

If our government is wasting money on HP ammo for practice and training, then we need to stop arguing about how much in taxes the rich should pay, and instead start arguing to cut the DHS budget.

I'll say it one more time until I instill it, there is no fucking reason to shoot HP ammo at the range. It's way too expensive, it's not as 'green' and it's way too expensive.
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You know it is to expensive from the civilian POV of a hundred rounds compared to FMJ.

From the government POV, it may be the same cost or close enough that there is no difference when purchasing in bulk
 
It might be cheaper, but wouldn't it be even cheaper for them to buy 450 million FMJ rounds and a few hundred thousand HP rounds? It's not like you need to replace HP rounds very often if your not shooting them.

I'm shooting surplus rounds from the korean war!
 
training with fmj is what you do when you are a civilian paying for ammo yourself.

jhp is the duty round for LEO. you train with what you use in the field. you train with jhp to make sure your weapon cycles it flawlessly, to guarantee that the grouping pattern is the same, to familiarize yourself with sound and muzzle flash of your chosen round.

my department gave us black talons for practice, certification, and duty use. the only time they skimped was back at the academy when they went with conventional civilian grade jhp vs SXT.
 
gorobei said:
training with fmj is what you do when you are a civilian paying for ammo yourself.

jhp is the duty round for LEO. you train with what you use in the field. you train with jhp to make sure your weapon cycles it flawlessly, to guarantee that the grouping pattern is the same, to familiarize yourself with sound and muzzle flash of your chosen round.
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/thread
 
gorobei said:
training with fmj is what you do when you are a civilian paying for ammo yourself.

jhp is the duty round for LEO. you train with what you use in the field. you train with jhp to make sure your weapon cycles it flawlessly, to guarantee that the grouping pattern is the same, to familiarize yourself with sound and muzzle flash of your chosen round.

my department gave us black talons for practice, certification, and duty use. the only time they skimped was back at the academy when they went with conventional civilian grade jhp vs SXT.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I didn't think about that before. I shoot JHP about twice a year, mostly to make sure it still feeds properly. I've never noticed that it shoots differently, but I only shoot 124 grain.

However, I still have to ask if it's necessary every single time? After all, us civilians are paying for that ammo ourselves. Honestly, I don't think it's worth the cost to us. In any case, it looks like they are using it for training, and thus the amount isn't anything abnormal. I still think it's silly.
 
And it's my understanding many of the people have to qualify every 3-6 months. That adds up to a lot of rounds.

And they only ordered the bullets? 🙂 Ahh, I weep for the death of quality journalism. "Hello, Dillon, I want to load 450,000,000 rounds. Will the Square B be enough or should I step up to the XL650?"
 
EagleKeeper said:
Ottoman empire did not exist in WWII - went down in Oct '23
They sided with Germany in WWI.
The area that they controlled is what was considered now the Middle East.

If believe that WWI happened well before 1948 😛
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Dont forget the Prussian Empire.
 
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twinrider1 said:
And it's my understanding many of the people have to qualify every 3-6 months. That adds up to a lot of rounds.

And they only ordered the bullets? 🙂 Ahh, I weep for the death of quality journalism. "Hello, Dillon, I want to load 450,000,000 rounds. Will the Square B be enough or should I step up to the XL650?"
Click to expand...

hahaha.

well, you never know.. next it might come out that they made an order for a half million pounds of powder, 450 million primer caps, and 100 million brass.

(knowing how govt operates, they'd buy the wrong type of powder)
 
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