DHS orders 450 million hollow-point bullets; doesn't explain why

[EagleKeeper]

Coast Guard is a military branch, not a DHS agency.

Only in times of war.

However, they have full military privileges and equivalent ranks.

 

[lozina]

Only in times of war.

when are we NOT at war??? :biggrin:

 

[NetWareHead]

No it is not. Conspiracy theories aside... you have to take this from the angle of how the government is run. Here we have a contract that allows up to 450 million rounds of ammo to be sold by ATK. We are not talking about a lot of gun battles here.. so most ammo will be expended in training (this is not all guns... just .40 caliber ammo). With the number of employees I don't think they will burn through millions and millions of rounds per year.

That being said... I bet at the end of 5 years the federal government will have paid ATK for 450 million rounds of ammo. Whether it is delivered or not. ATK has to pay kickbacks, pay off their senator, etc. This costs a lot of money. Taxpayers should keep a close eye on these types of contracts.

I still fail to see any problems here. A govt agency like this has alot of guns to keep supplied. If, and only if the rounds are paid for and then not delivered, you then have a case and cause for argument. Until then, this is normal biz.

 

[Hugo Drax]

For the looming NWO control and UN occupation. 🙂

 

[SunnyD]

The Coast Guard is under Homeland Security (used to be Treasury) during peacetime and part of the Dept. of Defense during war.

Learn something new every day. It was apparently permanently transferred to DHS in 2003... which would explain why I didn't care. I was asleep from 2002 to 2004 (not caring about the world).

A couple other things I didn't know, for example any active or reserve coast guard officer is legally entitled to act as a US Customs Agent, thereby allowing them to conduct federal law enforcement services while on or off duty and has the capability of arresting anyone that commits a federal felony while in their presence. They are also allowed to carry their issued sidearm while on or off duty.

I guess that explains a few of those 450 million rounds.

 

[sourceninja]

This and this and this x 1000. Does anyone have any idea how many millions and millions rounds are expended each year in just practice and shooting range time? This article is ridiculous.

Again, why HP rounds for practice? FMJ Target rounds (which are cheaper) would be a better buy. The only reason to buy HP rounds is to replace the ones you shot at people.

I carry HP rounds, but I don't shoot them at the range. I shoot ammo designed to be shot at the range.

 

[IGemini]

Yeah, I'd also hope they use FMJ at the range. These types of JHP rounds go for about 2-3x more than FMJ.

The .40 caliber is exclusively used for handguns right?

As far as the Fed goes, yes. There are pistol-caliber carbines out there that use .40S&W though.

 

[Red Squirrel]

They need these so that they won't ricochet off handcuffs when shooting someone in the back.

:biggrin:

Sadly, true.

 

[rh71]

But who actually enforces all this? If they actually have the power to do that why can't they just make a rule that states no weapons, wars should happen in a meeting room over a couple drinks and come to an agreement that way? Seems kinda silly. Sounds more like general guidelines to not be considered cheap, to me. Who's actually going to make the opponent follow it?

I can just see it now "Wait, wait, don't blow that up yet, let me pull out my rule book here to make sure we're ok. Ok on page 534 section 3 it talks about this but think we're ok, what do you think, should we go for it?" "Wait, let me call our enemy and see if they're ok with this, we have to play fair". :awe:

I agree it's silly, but still, you're not supposed to shoot medics right?

Right?

 

[bononos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war


List of declarations, conventions, treaties and judgements and on the laws of war:........

Actually the US did not sign the Hague convention(and a couple others) which mandated fmj for military ammo. So America is free to use fmj or hollow point. I don't know if theres a convention which addresses the issue of depleted uranium rounds being splattered all over the place which sounds worse.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I agree it's silly, but still, you're not supposed to shoot medics right?

Right?

It would be a total asshole move to do, but hey, if you have people trying to kill you and take over your country, you sure as hell don't care what's considered an asshole move, you'll do whatever it is to bring them down. But yeah I see that, need to show some level of maturity when fighting I suppose and not stoop to their level.

Always go for the engineer though, you don't want them getting that tank going again. :awe:

 

[Kelvrick]

Yeah, I'd also hope they use FMJ at the range. These types of JHP rounds go for about 2-3x more than FMJ.



As far as the Fed goes, yes. There are pistol-caliber carbines out there that use .40S&W though.

Yep, FBI issues mp5/40's.

 

[corwin]

Again, why HP rounds for practice? FMJ Target rounds (which are cheaper) would be a better buy. The only reason to buy HP rounds is to replace the ones you shot at people.

I carry HP rounds, but I don't shoot them at the range. I shoot ammo designed to be shot at the range.

Yeah, I'd also hope they use FMJ at the range. These types of JHP rounds go for about 2-3x more than FMJ.

We shoot fmj at the range because they are cheaper not because they're "designed" to be shot at the range...the .gov doesn't have a spending limit so they shoot the nice shit all the time...it would be nice if we could find ANY .gov agency that was at all concerned with cost savings but I don't think one exists:\

 

[TecHNooB]

some companies live off government contracts and some get them by unlawful means.

 

[sourceninja]

We shoot fmj at the range because they are cheaper not because they're "designed" to be shot at the range...the .gov doesn't have a spending limit so they shoot the nice shit all the time...it would be nice if we could find ANY .gov agency that was at all concerned with cost savings but I don't think one exists:\

Which is why I think we are entitled to know exactly what they will be using their ammo on. The government will be more frugal if we hold our politicians feet to the fire.

 

[rudeguy]

Which is why I think we are entitled to know exactly what they will be using their ammo on. The government will be more frugal if we hold our politicians feet to the fire.

They are going to put them in guns and shoot them

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jaskalas]

last time I checked DHS does not go to "war".

Right, things illegal for war are perfectly suited for use against civilian populations in 'peace' time.

 

[jpeyton]

DHS is a big government body with a lot of employees. For example, it has over 20,000 border patrol agents.

1 agent might fire 800 rounds/month at the range. That's 9600 rounds/year. For 20,000 agents, that's 192 million rounds/year just at the range. And that would just be for border patrol.

 

[Lithium381]

dang i wish i could afford ammo

 

[corwin]

dang i wish i could afford ammo

Wish I had stock piled it before it got so damn expensive...and I just got done blowing through my first 1k rounds of .223, sucks that 3 trips to the range are so expensive🙁

 

[Lemon law]

" Enemy combatants " ( aka known as terrorists ) are not normally covered by the Geneva convention and that was basically the GWB position.

But I really question this purchase for 40 caliber hollow points as they are almost only used for pistol rounds. Pistols may be useful at only short ranges, making them almost useless in military type combat.

 

[chusteczka]

We need to be careful when DHS uses this as their new marketing campaign.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

 

[BladeVenom]

when are we NOT at war??? :biggrin:

We are at war in the Middle East; we have always been at war in the Middle East. Europe is our ally; Europe has always been our ally.

 

[ShockwaveVT]

Which is why I think we are entitled to know exactly what they will be using their ammo on. The government will be more frugal if we hold our politicians feet to the fire.

Why don't you do a little research instead of whining on the internet about how there's no legit use for that many rounds of ammo? No you have no clue what it takes to ensure we have highly trained federal law enforcement agents and apparently you can't be bothered to lift a finger & find out...

Well, here's a start for you....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security#Structure

Customs & Border Protection (CBP): 21,000 Customs Officers, 21,000 Border Patrol, 1,000 Interdiction = 43,000 armed law enforcement agents
Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE): 8,500 HSI agents, + ?? ERO agents (no # listed on wiki, but figure 2,500+ since they operate nationwide) = 10,000+ armed law enforcement agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center = training site for over 90 Federal Law Enforcement Agencies.

So you have right there in 5 minutes, over 53,000 armed law enforcement agents, all of whom must complete mandatory firearms training, and plenty of whom probably do extra training. Then you've got service weapons, armories and such to stock in case of emergency. Oh and then you've got a large training center that includes a lot of range time.


And that's not even counting the Coast Guard or the Federal Air Marshal Service or the Secret Service. You don't think the Secret Service guys live at the range when not on detail?

And finally when your life is potentially on the line (or the lives of citizens you're trying to protect) You Train as realistically as possible - which means becoming intimately familiar with the operation of your firearm with it's service ammunition.

Gimme a fuckin break.