Details emerge on Bethesda's Creation Engine

[motsm]

Oblivion and STALKER were the first two games I played where the AI acted in a semi realistic behavior (STALKER was the better of the two, but Oblivion was still a step above all the others.) If Bethesda can improve on the interactions, it would be nice. I liked the sense of immersion that the openness and semi realistic AI behaviors made in Oblivion.

What realistic AI behavior? I never saw the AI in Oblivion do anything interesting... ever.

 

[shortylickens]

What realistic AI behavior? I never saw the AI in Oblivion do anything interesting... ever.

They walk around and have conversations with each other. Also guards on the far side of the city know when you sneak into a shack at night.
But if you spend a hundred hours in the game (like many people do) you will hear the same conversation repeated about 50 times. And thats assuming you use mods and cheats to increase your run speed and spend no more time in town than needed. Most of the time I am in and out like a ninja. And the psychic guards are more annoying than cool. Theres several mods to get rid of them.

 

[Throckmorton]

Great news for gamers who love boring games with no storyline.

 

[motsm]

They walk around and have conversations with each other. Also guards on the far side of the city know when you sneak into a shack at night.
But if you spend a hundred hours in the game (like many people do) you will hear the same conversation repeated about 50 times. And thats assuming you use mods and cheats to increase your run speed and spend no more time in town than needed. Most of the time I am in and out like a ninja. And the psychic guards are more annoying than cool. Theres several mods to get rid of them.

Those conversations are stumbling and awkward the first time you hear them, let alone the 60th.

I'll take slightly more static NPC's that use detailed scripts (Gothic), than the possibly more dynamic, boring and dullardesque AI controlled NPC's in Oblivion.

 

[Dumac]

Don't believe ANYTHING about radiant AI.

Just look at Oblivion. They promised all this crazy radiant AI stuff, couldn't get it to work, stripped it completely, and shipped out a half-assed game.

 

[waggy]

I will buy it. i enjoyed marrowind and oblivion. Not perfect RPG's but still damn better then most things out.

though i do have to say both are better after user mods.

 

[Martimus]

What realistic AI behavior? I never saw the AI in Oblivion do anything interesting... ever.

The characters go to bed at night, they get up, eat breakfast, then go to work, go home after work, eat dinner, maybe read a book, then go back to bed. Before Oblivion, I never saw NPCs do anything like that. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was a good start. I expect this game to build on that start.

 

[smackababy]

The characters go to bed at night, they get up, eat breakfast, then go to work, go home after work, eat dinner, maybe read a book, then go back to bed. Before Oblivion, I never saw NPCs do anything like that. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was a good start. I expect this game to build on that start.

That isn't AI. You check the time of day (if time.equals("night") they are in bed), else you generate a random int and run it through a switch statement to determine what they are doing. Loop that shit for the entire game...

 

[taltamir]

Sounds like what people have been saying they're going to do soon with AI for the past 20 years. I'm in the believe it when I see it camp.

ain't this the truth. others have been mentioned that oblivion promised this. But it wasn't just oblivion, it was game after game after game.
For decades companies have been promising this, and it never materialized.

I will believe this when I see it.

 

[motsm]

The characters go to bed at night, they get up, eat breakfast, then go to work, go home after work, eat dinner, maybe read a book, then go back to bed. Before Oblivion, I never saw NPCs do anything like that. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was a good start. I expect this game to build on that start.

Your really making it sound more impressive than it is. Most of the NPC's that 'go to work', just wake up and they are at work by simply standing in place and existing, because they live in their shop, bar, guild, or wherever else they may work. Aside from that, the only NPC's that really do anything at all are those that you have direct interactions with, either through questing, or offering items or services. None of them just work for immersive purposes, or work in some sort of visual way, their work always just means they stand or walk around in a particular area. As far as eating goes, I don't recall any NPC's going anywhere to eat, unless they were the same handful of scripted NPC's that were in the eatery to begin with, but maybe they pulled a berry out of their pants now and then wherever they may have been standing. Reading as well, I really don't remember seeing a single NPC ever reading on whim, or going to a nice quiet location and reading, they just stand in their mages guild post and sometimes have a book in their hand. Oblivion's radiant AI was just awful in every single respect, IMO.

If you want to see NPC's actually doing something, play Gothic 1 and 2.

 

[simonizor]

Yeah except Oblivion could have been even better. Graphics were nice and dandy, but the AI and other complexities to the game were stripped down in order to port it to the 360.


Don't forget that originally Oblivion was supposed to be even more graphically demanding then when it was released. The only reason why it ran so poorly half the time was because it runs on an unoptimized version of the GameBryo engine, which already has stability issues if you have ever played Civ 4, Divinity 2, etc.





It's because when gameplay, storyline, and presentation of games like Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape Torment, and other classic 90s games are infinitely superior (and I do mean infinitely superior) than that of modern day games, you begin to wonder what is wrong with the companies that are making RPG games.


The Witcher for example I have almost no qualms with, since it had real roleplaying in that game with real consequences for your actions. And that is a more "modern" example of a RPG game that does it right, unlike Oblivion which was trash right from the start (especially considering how well done Morrowind was).

You need to stop forcing your opinions down other people's throats as if they are absolute fact.

I, and many other people, really enjoyed Oblivion. So what if it wasn't your cup of tea? You can't make everyone happy.

 

[wanderer27]

Your really making it sound more impressive than it is. Most of the NPC's that 'go to work', just wake up and they are at work by simply standing in place and existing, because they live in their shop, bar, guild, or wherever else they may work. Aside from that, the only NPC's that really do anything at all are those that you have direct interactions with, either through questing, or offering items or services. None of them just work for immersive purposes, or work in some sort of visual way, their work always just means they stand or walk around in a particular area. As far as eating goes, I don't recall any NPC's going anywhere to eat, unless they were the same handful of scripted NPC's that were in the eatery to begin with, but maybe they pulled a berry out of their pants now and then wherever they may have been standing. Reading as well, I really don't remember seeing a single NPC ever reading on whim, or going to a nice quiet location and reading, they just stand in their mages guild post and sometimes have a book in their hand. Oblivion's radiant AI was just awful in every single respect, IMO.

If you want to see NPC's actually doing something, play Gothic 1 and 2.

Really?

Let's see:
I've seen NPC's go on trips (and I'm talking about Shopkeepers).
I've seen various NPC's come and go into shops as customers.
I've seen Shopkeepers go to places to eat/drink.
I've seen NPC's steal/pickpocket and get in fights etc.

Those are just a few things I've noticed.

Now I won't deny that there's a lot of repetition and things are far from perfect, but it's an improvement in the right direction.

 

[taltamir]

You need to stop forcing your opinions down other people's throats as if they are absolute fact.

I, and many other people, really enjoyed Oblivion. So what if it wasn't your cup of tea? You can't make everyone happy.

stating one's opinion is not forcing it down other people's throat. nor is it claiming to be fact.

When a person says "This is not fun", they are make a subjective statement. This, by definition, is their opinion and not a fact.

If he said "It is a fact that you <insert insult suggesting own mental superiority> can't recognize that <insert subjective statement>" then he would be stating it to be fact.

And in order to force it down your throat he would have to aggressively pursue you, rather then stating it in an appropriate forum.

Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he has bad etiquette.

Also note, this is not backseat moderating. Neither of you broke any rules, had you broken any rules the appropriate response would be to report you (rather then say "this is not allowed"). No rules were broken though. You are getting upset at him due to a mistaken belief that he is being rude and overbearing, where all he is really doing is politely stating an opinion that differs from yours.

RPGNerds raging against one of the few RPG makers left. Even BioWare gets hammered. This is why they are consolizing and moving on. All the raging and stamping of little feet and bitching about everything these companies do.

Nothing they do or any improvements they make will ever make you all happy.

bioware gets hammered because they began doing some really bad things since "The Evil" bought them out.

"Being bioware" is not a license to do whatever they want and get away with it.
And there are new RPG makers coming, they just don't have the budgets of the big names so they are relegated to being "indie", for now.

 

[Arglebargle]

You need to stop forcing your opinions down other people's throats as if they are absolute fact.

I, and many other people, really enjoyed Oblivion. So what if it wasn't your cup of tea? You can't make everyone happy.

It's quite possible to like games that suffer from poor design. I know I do. There are a lot of poorly made movies and poorly written books that are popular. Same with games.

Me, I am in the 'I haven't bought a Bethesda game since Oblivion' camp.

 

[motsm]

Really?

Let's see:
I've seen NPC's go on trips (and I'm talking about Shopkeepers).
I've seen various NPC's come and go into shops as customers.
I've seen Shopkeepers go to places to eat/drink.
I've seen NPC's steal/pickpocket and get in fights etc.

I played the game plenty and never saw a single one of those things. Maybe with mods, but the stock games NPC's did next to nothing but have stupid banter that often made no sense.

Now I won't deny that there's a lot of repetition and things are far from perfect, but it's an improvement in the right direction.

Even if they did all of the stuff you mentioned and more, it's still a downgrade from Gothic, which was released in 2001, so I don't see how it's a step in the right direction.

 

[taltamir]

It's because when gameplay, storyline, and presentation of games like Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape Torment, and other classic 90s games are infinitely superior (and I do mean infinitely superior) than that of modern day games, you begin to wonder what is wrong with the companies that are making RPG games.

The exact same thing wrong with DC/Marvel comic books today.
A good story has a good author. AN author. I might not agree with everything the author says or does, but there is an author, and they have a story to tell.
A bad story has a committee of businessmen trying to decide what "the youth today wants" to put placed into their "franchise" (not story, franchise).
Rather then creating new original content, old stories get rebooted again and again (spiderman for example has over 41 separate continuities). I can say with assurance that if <insert your favorite book> got rebooted 41 times it would be crap.

Beyond the mere storytelling, gameplay is being packaged into "what the stupid sheep wants" (according to the belief of business execs who don't actually like games), and further influences by marking (lets put an in game quest that links you to a real world store where you can buy that content with real money!... ex: dragon age, fable 2... thanks for raping immersion!)

I think planescape torment was able to be such a good game because it was a product of love. That being said, its also comparing the best of the best of a whole decade to whatever you have now. Not every game can be a hit... and just love is far from enough. The game has to be well designed, with fun intelligent gameplay, etc. And planescape, as awesome as it was, is far from perfect.

Looking at those older games that are held up to such high esteem. They had their gameplay flaws... where they excelled is in the delivery. Amazing dialog, story, and themes that sucked you in and created unparalleled immersion... you weren't some dude playing a game, you were a hero on a quest.

Modern games often slap together some generic quests, no impeccably written story, no amazing dialog, and horrid voice acting... Ah the voice acting. One of the biggest downfall of modern games is voice acting. When it became practical to have voiced over everything a lot of companies did so... to save money MOST games have the programmers and their immediate family do the voice overs (yes, really). This is TERRIBLE and makes for an inferior experience to a voiceless game. A picture of a person with appropriate background music and text color lets your imagination fill in the voice properly. No gratingly bad delivery of teeth gratingly bad dialog to tear you out of your immersion.

To be honest, earlier bioware games had poor voice acting. but starting with jade empire it became really good. Mass effect and dragon age featured top notch voice acting. No stupid "false choice" between puppy torturing and stupid over-altruism (although they still had their moments, and jade empire had nothing but those). With dragon age the "karma meter" was done away with entirely to be replaced with "consequences"... you do something because you want to, and the reward is changes in the world... people die, get saved, get transformed, get punished... your actions have a consequence rather then merely adjusting your karma meter.
Mass effect had flaws, but I think it still stands as possibly the best RPG of all time.
Dragon age on the other hand, had such an atrociously bad game mechanics, that even the awesome interactive movie could not compensate for it. No amount of perfect dialog, characterization, character development, and epic voice acting and story could drive me to actually finish the game... because the gameplay itself was that of a really really bad MMORPG.

Finally, there is the issue of quality control... the video game industry crashed due to bad quality control in the 1980s. Most companies went out of business, and they swore "never again"... everyone forgot that and we are back at it. Nowadays 9/10 PC games can't be played to the end do to a 100&#37; reproduce-able show stopping bug that needs to be patched (Showing utter lack of playtesting... example, Neverwinter nights 2 main campaign got stuck when you meet the elf druid, always! they simply haven't bothered playing it even once), and even then they are buggy.
Modern console games are only slightly better, and getting worse by the year. ALL current gen consoles can patch games over the internet. So the majority of console games are released buggy and unfinished, then never fixed.
One of the things that made portal stand out so much is the insane amount of quality control they did. Not only did they find and fix all bugs before releasing it. They PLAY TESTED! And they did so A LOT... listen to the commentary and you will find that in area after area they made sweeping changes due to player responses to play testing, then they did so again, and again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1kvadcJwmE

 

[namtran512]

You need to stop forcing your opinions down other people's throats as if they are absolute fact.

I, and many other people, really enjoyed Oblivion. So what if it wasn't your cup of tea? You can't make everyone happy.

I never forced my opinion on anyone, I just simply stated my opinions. I never said that you were wrong and I was right.


However, if you would like to argue from a critical standpoint that Oblivion is just as good as Baldurs Gate 2, then by all means do so. I think you would be hard pressed to able to critically compare Oblivion to Baldurs Gate 2, a game that has stood the test of time as one of the best, if not the best RPG (according to some people, not to me personally) ever created on the PC.


You don't have to like a game to see the quality in a game. For example, I personally didn't like the Witcher as much as say Planescape Tormet, Baldurs Gate Series, or some of the Ultima games, however I do recognize that it was a quality game that attempted to address some of the issues that modern day games today do not. It simply wasn't my cup of tea (the storyline, presentation, gameplay, etc.) however I do recognize that it is actually a good game, unlike some of the crap that modern day companies are spewing out and branding as "RPGs".

 

[shortylickens]

I will buy it. i enjoyed marrowind and oblivion. Not perfect RPG's but still damn better then most things out.

though i do have to say both are better after user mods.

The smartest thing they did was include editing tools right on the disc. And an easy plug-in system that everyone can use. After that the fan sites pretty much set themselves up.

 

[Martimus]

I played the game plenty and never saw a single one of those things. Maybe with mods, but the stock games NPC's did next to nothing but have stupid banter that often made no sense.

Even if they did all of the stuff you mentioned and more, it's still a downgrade from Gothic, which was released in 2001, so I don't see how it's a step in the right direction.

They did do those things. I never modded the game, and saw all of those. It was nowhere near perfect, but it was a good step in the right direction. I expect them to continue to improve the system in future editions. Fallout on the other hand seemed to take a step back from Oblivion when it came to NPCs following a semi realistic lifestyle.

 

[zerocool84]

Bethesda has many more important things it needs to work on than all this other stuff: Decent voice acting, not using the exact same lay-out/horrible textures for every "dungeon" and town, side-quests we actually care about, good storyline, and #1, BUGS.

Nothing else matters to me and I won't buy another one of their games cus they obviously haven't worked on any of these.

 

[Red Storm]

Bethesda has many more important things it needs to work on than all this other stuff: Decent voice acting...

Most definitely this. They seem to splurge on a high profile actor to voice the first few minutes and then have that character killed off and use generic voices for everyone else.

Here in the DC area there's a "My Eye Dr." radio commercial that's voiced by none other than Mr. Imperial City Guard! I can't get away from this guy! D:

 

[Sulaco]

I played the game plenty and never saw a single one of those things. Maybe with mods, but the stock games NPC's did next to nothing but have stupid banter that often made no sense.

They do those things. And MUCH more.

How do I know? Read the guide for the game. It gives detailed descriptions on many NPC's movements, activities, and schedules throughout their week. And then of course, you can witness and verify this for yourself.

These include going to restaurants to eat, cheating on their spouses (by "sleeping" with other NPCs), traveling to other towns, going shopping, even illegal stuff.
Don't believe me? Check out the official guide.

Just because YOU don't see it, or witness it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Kinda like the real world. It's not thrown in your face, and they don't tell you "Oh, hai! Todayz Im going shawping!", but it is there and you can witness for yourself, if you so choose.

 

[QueBert]

What realistic AI behavior? I never saw the AI in Oblivion do anything interesting... ever.

I was in a room down in a basement somewhere, nobody was around. I stole something tiny and when I exited the room guards were yelling stop thief and chasing me. Also at the start where the king or whoever dies in the sewer. When I got out of the sewer I went full speed to the nearest town and the 1st person I spoke to already knew of the king being slain and that I was there. Maybe they had texting back then I dunno.

Oblivion has very unique AI, it sucked huge balls but it was interesting.

 

[Dumac]

They do those things. And MUCH more.

How do I know? Read the guide for the game. It gives detailed descriptions on many NPC's movements, activities, and schedules throughout their week. And then of course, you can witness and verify this for yourself.

These include going to restaurants to eat, cheating on their spouses (by "sleeping" with other NPCs), traveling to other towns, going shopping, even illegal stuff.
Don't believe me? Check out the official guide.

Just because YOU don't see it, or witness it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Kinda like the real world. It's not thrown in your face, and they don't tell you "Oh, hai! Todayz Im going shawping!", but it is there and you can witness for yourself, if you so choose.

That isn't AI. That is all hardcoded. It isn't dynamic and doesn't require intelligence.

 

[Sulaco]

That isn't AI. That is all hardcoded. It isn't dynamic and doesn't require intelligence.

Did I say it was??

My reply was in response to motsm's reply to the following:

I've seen NPC's go on trips (and I'm talking about Shopkeepers).
I've seen various NPC's come and go into shops as customers.
I've seen Shopkeepers go to places to eat/drink.
I've seen NPC's steal/pickpocket and get in fights etc

I played the game plenty and never saw a single one of those things. Maybe with mods, but the stock games NPC's did next to nothing but have stupid banter that often made no sense.

Please know the context before jumping to conclusions.