Desktop Computer Build Advice

[Torn Mind]

I would think that reading data from a floppy or writing data to one is a trivial affair. Perhaps the OP uses a few floppy boot disks or something? A PCIe card that supports IDE ports or a USB to IDE/SATA converter might be all that is need.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816124009

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812232002

 

[mfenn]

I would think that reading data from a floppy or writing data to one is a trivial affair. Perhaps the OP uses a few floppy boot disks or something? A PCIe card that supports IDE ports or a USB to IDE/SATA converter might be all that is need.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816124009

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812232002

Adding a card isn't really an option in a mini-ITX system.

Overall, I agree with lehtv. I don't see why you would need a system with an internal floppy drive in this day an age. Buy a USB floppy drive and consolidate them all to a USB key. Then copy that USB key to 2 more USB keys and you'll have a far faster and more resilient "storage system" than a pile of old floppies.

 

[Seba]

I would think that reading data from a floppy or writing data to one is a trivial affair. Perhaps the OP uses a few floppy boot disks or something? A PCIe card that supports IDE ports or a USB to IDE/SATA converter might be all that is need.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816124009

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812232002

The card you give the link for is PCI, not PCI-E.

And you need a floppy connector for a floppy drive, not an IDE connector (this is for IDE HDD and IDE CD/DVD units).

 

[mfenn]

The card you give the link for is PCI, not PCI-E.

And you need a floppy connector for a floppy drive, not an IDE connector (this is for IDE HDD and IDE CD/DVD units).

I think that Torn was referring to the OP's idea that he could get an LS-120, which were available in IDE variants. Your other point stands though.

 

[thomase13]

Why can't you just use an external floppy drive externally? Why does it need to be mounted internally?

I cannot use an external floppy drive externally because that is an ugly "solution", and it takes up more desk space, the conservation of which is one of the main points of having a case which sits underneath your monitor.

I'm wondering what you use floppy disks for ...?

I have hundreds of floppy diskettes, which store many thousands of files, programs, operating systems, photographs, and games.

There's nothing they do that modern data storage like USB thumb drives don't do.

While that may seem to be true at first, it is simply not.
I love floppy diskettes.
Their aura, the sounds that they make — are like nothing else.
Especially in gaming, using and playing off of a floppy diskette is to me a significant part of the aesthetic experience of playing that game. And I don't know what else but an aesthetic experience playing a video game is!
Furthermore, I shudder to think of how my games would react to being played off of a solid state drive! I think they would most likely explode!
Software is (or should be) written for the speed of a computer, and with the speed of this computer, the games would run so fast they would be unenjoyable, without a floppy diskette and drive to properly slow them down.
Yes, I'm sure there is some emulator or whatever that could do this, but again, I am absolutely not interested in such things; the magic is gone, the aesthetic is lost.

Overall, I agree with lehtv. I don't see why you would need a system with an internal floppy drive in this day an age. Buy a USB floppy drive and consolidate them all to a USB key. Then copy that USB key to 2 more USB keys and you'll have a far faster and more resilient "storage system" than a pile of old floppies.

Your points are absolutely rock solid and are not arguable. These are the two reasons that, as of the year before last, I have stopped using them for my important day-to-day work. And if I were wise, I would most definitely back up my most important files to some other faster and more reliable storage medium, especially the photographs, which are especially numerous! But that is another project for another day.
Out of curiosity though, do you know what the best (most reliable) medium is for archival storage purposes? I know it's not floppies or CDs, as they seem to be able to break down relatively quickly unfortunately, and SSDs don't sound perfect either, so are good old hard drives still the best for this?

Adding a card isn't really an option in a mini-ITX system.

I do not understand why I need a mini-ITX motherboard.
I am sorry for using the vague and almost meaningless term of "SFF" earlier on, but my case is
12.2 inches wide, 14.1 inches deep, and 3.3 inches high. Would not an ATX or MicroATX board fit into this case?
I just don't know how to tell how much space can be taken up by the motherboard!

Thanks again,
Thomas

 

[thomase13]

Also, what I neglected to mention is that I have finally, after long research and thought, decided upon the Core i5-4570, so I need a board with the LGA 1150 socket, and if I haven't mentioned it before, support for USB 3.0 and SATA III, and in whichever form factor is appropriate given my previous post.

 

[lehtv]

Almost any LGA1150 board has USB 3 and SATA III.

Is that the IBM S51-8171 4XU case you mentioned in the OP? I can't find info on what form factor it is exactly but the dimensions suggest microATX. Whatever it is though, I would much rather just get a new HTPC desktop case.

Silverstone ML04B $75 is probably sturdy enough for resting a monitor on top of, though this is something you may want to check with Silverstone. http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=395

Supports microATX boards and ATX PSUs. Supports up to four 80mm fans on the side, but I'm not quite sure if it's better to use intake or exhaust fans. In any case, I'd add at least two 80mm fans.

 

[lehtv]

Also... if you really want to save space on your desk, why not put a tower under the desk?

 

[mfenn]

I cannot use an external floppy drive externally because that is an ugly "solution", and it takes up more desk space, the conservation of which is one of the main points of having a case which sits underneath your monitor.

I have hundreds of floppy diskettes, which store many thousands of files, programs, operating systems, photographs, and games.

While that may seem to be true at first, it is simply not.
I love floppy diskettes.
Their aura, the sounds that they make — are like nothing else.
Especially in gaming, using and playing off of a floppy diskette is to me a significant part of the aesthetic experience of playing that game. And I don't know what else but an aesthetic experience playing a video game is!
Furthermore, I shudder to think of how my games would react to being played off of a solid state drive! I think they would most likely explode!
Software is (or should be) written for the speed of a computer, and with the speed of this computer, the games would run so fast they would be unenjoyable, without a floppy diskette and drive to properly slow them down.
Yes, I'm sure there is some emulator or whatever that could do this, but again, I am absolutely not interested in such things; the magic is gone, the aesthetic is lost.

This is... completely insane. Sorry, but it just is. It doesn't really even make sense. Once the game's executable is loaded into memory, it's going to run at the speed of the processor no matter what. DOS doesn't even have the virtual memory subsystem necessary to allow the executable to be partially resident. Sure, games would load assets off the floppy disk as needed, but the main loop of the game would be running from memory.

Your points are absolutely rock solid and are not arguable. These are the two reasons that, as of the year before last, I have stopped using them for my important day-to-day work. And if I were wise, I would most definitely back up my most important files to some other faster and more reliable storage medium, especially the photographs, which are especially numerous! But that is another project for another day.
Out of curiosity though, do you know what the best (most reliable) medium is for archival storage purposes? I know it's not floppies or CDs, as they seem to be able to break down relatively quickly unfortunately, and SSDs don't sound perfect either, so are good old hard drives still the best for this?

The best way to preserve your data is to have multiple copies and test those copies on a regular basis. Period, end of discussion. It doesn't much matter what the media is, but you want it to be large enough such that the archival and copying processes aren't a ton of work.

Luckily for you, 500 floppy disks is at most 720MB of data. You can buy a bunch of USB drives of different brands and keep a full copy on each for less than $50. Hell, you could also keep a copy on DropBox and Google Drive for free.

12.2 inches wide, 14.1 inches deep, and 3.3 inches high. Would not an ATX or MicroATX board fit into this case?
I just don't know how to tell how much space can be taken up by the motherboard!

The problem with OEM SFF cases is that they are usually non-standard form factors. Your case might me MicroATX compatible, but then again it might not be. If you really really really want to use that case, you need to (a) measure the motherboard screw holes and see if they match the MicroATX spec and (b) be prepared to do some custom wiring for the front panel connections. Or you could just buy a new case as lehtv suggested.

 

[lehtv]

I would get an external floppy drive, and each time I used a floppy, I'd make a copy of it on the hard drive. After going through all the ones I use most often, I'd find time to backup the rest, test that they all work, and then put them all on a few thumb drives. Then I'd throw the floppy diskettes into the bin

 

[VirtualLarry]

I feel for the OP. I really do. I have hundreds of floppies myself, along with stockpiles of brand-new floppy drives. But I don't think that I've used a floppy in 5 years now.

Now I just collect flash drives.

 

[Steltek]

thomase13,

The simple fact of the matter is that most of the software you have on those old floppy disks isn't going to run on current computer hardware (or , for that matter, even hardware any later than an i386 or P4) without involving some sort of emulator like DOSBox or a virtualization solution like VMware (or even both in some circumstances). The hardware of today operates on levels that was literally inconceivable to the designers of that software at the time that they wrote it. CPUs are immeasurably too fast, memory address spaces immeasurably too large, operating systems have obseleted, and video card standards have moved so far along that they are totally incompatible without emulation intervention. The slow access speed of a floppy drive has nothing to do with these things.

If your old software runs on your current machine, your best option is to build a modern machine for your everyday use in the real world. Then, carefully clean up and refurb your old machine and restrict its use to only running your old software that you love so much. That way you can listen to the floppy drive click to your heart's contentment, at least until something fails that you can't find a replacement for.

Now I just collect flash drives.

Ain't it the truth? No matter how many of the dam#@d things you get, you always end up buying more of them. And, you can never find anything you need on any of them ....

 

[thomase13]

Also... if you really want to save space on your desk, why not put a tower under the desk?

Unfortunately, the space under my desk is less than the space on my desk. I need leg room too!
The reason I am so adamant about the "pizza box" style computer is that not only does it save desk space, but it also raises the monitor to a proper viewing height. Yes, I know they have adjustable-height monitors now, but they never actually go high enough for me if they're sitting right on the desk.

The best way to preserve your data is to have multiple copies and test those copies on a regular basis. Period, end of discussion. It doesn't much matter what the media is, but you want it to be large enough such that the archival and copying processes aren't a ton of work.

Wise words.
No medium is infalliable!
I feel as though the world would be a much better place if people heeded this message.

The problem with OEM SFF cases is that they are usually non-standard form factors. Your case might me MicroATX compatible, but then again it might not be. If you really really really want to use that case, you need to (a) measure the motherboard screw holes and see if they match the MicroATX spec and (b) be prepared to do some custom wiring for the front panel connections.

Thank you for this link! Finally some kind of concrete reference!
The best information I could find previously was Wikipedia, which is awfully limited.

...each time I used a floppy, I'd make a copy of it on the hard drive. After going through all the ones I use most often, I'd find time to backup the rest...

I think that's a great idea! Not only does it make it not such a huge project, but then my most-used diskettes get backed up first!
I do need to back up all of those photos sometime though...:hmm:

I feel for the OP. I really do. I have hundreds of floppies myself, along with stockpiles of brand-new floppy drives.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who understands me!

The simple fact of the matter is that most of the software you have on those old floppy disks isn't going to run on current computer hardware (or , for that matter, even hardware any later than an i386 or P4) without involving some sort of emulator

I just tested most of my DOS games (mostly written in the late eighties–early nineties) on my current Intel Core 2 Duo IBM ThinkPad T60p, and most of them work great without any kind of emulation thing (except for the naughty ones who ask the CPU to engage in illegal operations), so hopefully the upgrade won't change this.

If your old software runs on your current machine, your best option is to build a modern machine for your everyday use in the real world. Then, carefully clean up and refurb your old machine and restrict its use to only running your old software that you love so much.

Yes, yes, it would surely be ideal to run every program on the hardware it was written for, but my hope for this computer is backwards compatibility to infinity and beyond!
I know that's not strictly possible, but I think I can get close enough for me!

 

[thomase13]

I am now wondering if I need any specific expansion slots.
For one, do you think I would ever want or need to upgrade to getting an actual graphics card, or is the integrated graphics processor ample. If I would, then what interface would that require?

Thanks,
Thomas

 

[lehtv]

Any modern motherboard will have a full length PCIe slot for installing a graphics card.

 

[thomase13]

Merry Christmas and Happy Festivus everyone!!!



So I finally have decided on:

• Intel Core i5-4570 Processor…………………....$210
• ASRock B85M-GL Motherboard: $95
• Crucial Ballistix 4GB Desktop Memory Module -DDR3, 240pin, PC3-14900, DIMM 1 $60.96
• 650-Watt Power Supply - ATX, SATA-Ready, SLI-Ready, 135mm Fan, Sleeved Cables, Matte Finish, 3-Year Warranty 1 $69.97
• Sony 24X Internal DVD Burner - DVD±R 24X, DVD+RW 8X, DVD-RW 6X, DVD±R (DL) 12X, DVD-RAM 12X, CD-R 48X, CD-RW 32X, SATA, 2MB, Black, OEM 1 $30
• Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD - 2.5" Form Factor, SATA III 6 GB/s, Up To 540 MB/s Read Speed, Up To 520 MB/s Write Speed, 7mm Thickness, Samsung 3-core MEX Controller (MZ-7TE250BW) 1 $189.97
• Temporary ATX Case for assembly purposes!

Everything arrived and after I assembled the beast, I realized that my board does not support my operating system! After all the research, I somehow didn't notice that my motherboard does not support Windows XP. Only Windows 7 & 8!
I guess I didn't bother to check, because I just didn't think it would be an issue! I did a bit of further research, and I guess Intel didn't release chipset drivers for the Haswell boards! :/
Most drivers didn't work initially of course, but my friend got all of the question marks to go away in Device Manager except for the Intel on-board video driver, but I'm sure that buying a video card would fix this.

Can anyone think of some reason it is bad to use a system unsupported by your motherboard, even if you get all your drivers to work?
Motherboards don't give out drivers for Linux! How do Linux folks do things?!?

A very stupid mistake on my part, but it is what it is!

Also after ordering this motherboard, I realized it only had three expansion slots, and I am going to need four (because I need at least two PCI slots and my current board has only one), so I'll need a new motherboard regardless, the only question being whether Haswell will ever cause me any issues.
This is the motherboard I am looking at if I am keeping my Haswell 4570 processor and whatnot: Foxconn H87MX-D LGA 1150 Intel H87

Some people have kindly found me a couple of pizza-box style IBM desktop cases, but unfortunately, the setup of the I/O panel and the expansion slots is backwards and/or upside down, which is quite unfortunate, as that means I would need an entirely different back panel! I wasn't aware how extraordinarily proprietary some of these computers are!!!
I would think that getting another new case is the only way to overcome this, so I'm still working on that.

My other question is about XP Home Edition vs. Professional.
I would like Professional I think, because it has none of the limitations that Home does, but I wonder: does the average person really need Professional Edition on a desktop computer with a simple home network?
The reason I ask is that I have only been able to get my Home Edition product key working, and I wonder if I should bother seeking a Professional one.

Please do not waste your time trying to convince me to switch to another operating system. I have already done my research in this area, and I have very conclusively found that 32-bit Windows XP is the only system which meets my needs. I'm only unsure about the edition.


Thanks again,
Thomas

 

[mfenn]

You can't use Windows XP forever unless you also plan to keep using ~2001-2008 era hardware forever. Luckily virtualization gets rid of most needs to natively run the old OS. Why not just spend $100 on an old Core 2 Duo machine on Ebay and call it good?

Linux is a false comparison because there are many many versions of Linux. If you tried to run a version of Linux from 2001 (kernel 2.4) on a Haswell system, you'd be missing drivers for everything as well. Newer versions of Linux have drivers built-in for newer hardware.

EDIT: Here's a Windows XP edition comparison so that you can decide if you need any of the features of Pro.

 

[thomase13]

Windows XP support was only dropped by Intel in this very latest generation of processors. My only question is whether or not it makes any difference that my motherboard supports my OS, since I have gotten the drivers to work fine (or will have with a new video card).
My ThinkPad has a good Core Duo processor which is good enough for a laptop, but I certainly expect more from a desktop computer. I think that 2010–2013-era hardware should be good forever, as I think we have reached a point at which everything is so fast, I see no reason to ever need to upgrade from it.
The only things my previous desktop was unable to run properly were HD videos and bloatware like iTunes. Now that computers can handle HD video quite fine, I think we have reached the point of "good enough"!

Thank you for the feature comparison.

 

[mfenn]

There's nothing inherently wrong given that it works (at least works well enough). It's unlikely to cause your computer to explode or anything like that, but there's no guarantee of stability since they don't test it.

 

[thomase13]

Alright, thank you, that is what I wanted to hear.
Device manager has no problems with anything, as many of the drivers did work straight from the motherboard disc and the rest were found elsewhere.
I would feel a bit better buying the previous generation which supports XP, but I don't think I can justify it, considering that neither my motherboard nor processor have return policies.
It was an awfully stupid mistake, but I just didn't think of it, as when I started researching this, all motherboards actually did support XP, so it actually was not an issue at all; the stupid thing was assuming this wouldn't change.
I suppose I'll just have to test it myself as well as I can.

Thanks,
Thomas

 

[VirtualLarry]

Wow, I had no idea that Intel had dropped XP support already. XP support doesn't end until May of next year.

Intel really is horrible about software support for their hardware.

Nothing like being stuck with 32-bit Windows on 64-bit Atom hardware, because Intel wasn't capable of writing 64-bit video and network drivers.

 

[mfenn]

Wow, I had no idea that Intel had dropped XP support already. XP support doesn't end until May of next year.

This isn't quite as black and white as you're making it out to be. Windows XP actually ran out of normal mainstream support in back in 2009. It's currently in the extended support phase (til April 2014). That means that Microsoft is only providing security updates unless you have a specific (paid) support contract with them.

Microsoft isn't putting any effort into providing support for new hardware or functionality, and hasn't for years. I don't think it's unreasonable for Intel to stop supporting it on new hardware if Microsoft themselves aren't willing to do the same.

 

[thomase13]

Alright,
So I bought a video card, and this has successfully fixed my video driver problem. The only problem I know of which remains is the SATA driver problem. Everything is working, but my new SSD is running in IDE mode, which seems kind of stupid to me, considering that it's connected to a SATA III header. I can't imagine it's working at its full capacity in IDE mode, though it does work.

My new Foxconn motherboard did come in, which seems much better than my old one. I opened the box, and to my great surprise, the included quick installation guide indicated support for Windows XP, 7, & 8! I checked the manual on the CD, and it said the same thing, which surely seemed too good to be true.
All of the Foxconn utilities are XP compatible (according to the manual), but I didn't see how the disc could possibly have real XP chipset drivers, as Intel didn't ever produce any, from what I heard.
I checked the Foxconn support site, and all of the drivers show up for my board as compatible with only Windows 7 and 8.
I found this Web page, indicating that the latest Intel chipset kdrivers are available and compatible for Windows XP to Windows 8. I followed the link to the Intel Web site's download page, which says the chipset device software is only available for Windows 7 & 8. When I go to the readme file, it shows installation instructions for all Windows OSs from Windows 2000 to Windows 8!
I am so thoroughly confused! Which of these sources is correct?!?

Also, if in fact Windows XP really is supported, the readme file shows how to install the INF files prior to, and after, OS installation. Which method is better? Does it matter?
It doesn't matter to me, as though I do having XP (Home Edition) running and installed, I just bought an XP Professional key, and plan to reinstall Windows with than anyhow.

I know that the Intel Web site is saying these chipset drivers are for Intel boards made my Intel, but wouldn't they be universally applicable to any 8-series Intel-based chipset?

I think that all I'm really trying to do here is slipstream the SATA drivers onto an XP installation disc.
Will installing the chipset drivers include the SATA driver(s), or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Additionally, it would be awfully nice if I could get the onboard video to work so I could take the video card back to the store, although that seems pretty doubtful.

Any and all help is most appreciated, as always.

Thanks again,
Thomas

 

[mfenn]

Your SATA drive is working in IDE mode because that's what is compatible with an unmodified XP installation. If you tried setting it to AHCI mode, XP wouldn't install until you slipstreamed the drivers. There is no magic, if you want to make modern hardware work on an ancient OS, you've got to do some work.

The reason that the Foxconn board comes with a quick installation guide for XP is simple: they use the same guide across many different boards and forgot to change it for this particular board. Foxconn just redistributes the drivers that Intel provides, they can't magically make them work on XP.

Regarding slipstreaming the AHCI SATA drivers onto an XP disk, you can use nlite to automate process. Don't forget to change the SATA controller to AHCI mode before you install the OS.

 

[thomase13]

Your SATA drive is working in IDE mode because that's what is compatible with an unmodified XP installation.

So I take it that the hard drive must be first formatted in AHCI mode for it to work properly?

If you tried setting it to AHCI mode, XP wouldn't install until you slipstreamed the drivers.

I understand this, but my questions are: Are AHCI drivers included within Intel's chipset drivers, are Intel's chipset drivers compatible with XP (though some places it says only Windows 7 & 8) and my chipset (which is an Intel-based chipset, but of course not on an Intel-made 'board.)

The reason that the Foxconn board comes with a quick installation guide for XP is simple: they use the same guide across many different boards and forgot to change it for this particular board.

This is what I thought as well, but I am surprised that everything in the actual user's manual for my board would still include this misleading information.

Foxconn just redistributes the drivers that Intel provides, they can't magically make them work on XP.

The confusion still remains that on Intel's own Website, they list all editions of XP as compatible in their readme file, but not on their main page.

Regarding slipstreaming the AHCI SATA drivers onto an XP disk, you can use nlite to automate process. Don't forget to change the SATA controller to AHCI mode before you install the OS.

Thank you for this.
So I would assume that installing chipset drivers before OS would be the only way here? (Not that that's any problem, I'm just asking!)
The only remaining problem is knowing which drivers I am to be slipstreaming / where do I find them / do they exist!
I really hope they do exist!