Desktop Computer Build Advice

[thomase13]

Hello,

I am building a desktop computer for myself, which I will be using it mostly for various programs rather than intensive gaming, although I still want it to be capable graphical applications like playing games such as the Sims 3 and editing videos with very good performance. I also want it to be able to handle having lots of programs open at once and still stay pretty fast, which is what I'd likely be using doing to it a lot of the time.

My main confusion with this whole thing is processor and motherboard to buy. My other question is this: Would you personally recommend getting a solid-state drive? It sounds like a good idea to me with the theory being that they make the system faster, but I've heard mixed opinions about them. Also, would it be sensible to buy a solid-state drive for the system software and programs, and another for my own files? Or would it be better to buy one for everything? Do you know if they are more or less reliable (as far as breaking down) as conventional hard drives?

In the first build, I was suggested the following:Z87 motherboard $99
4GB DDR3 $25
3570K CPU $220 (as the HD4000 gpu which will play sims 3 fine).
PSU $20
Case - $100
SSD - $135 (for OS)
2TB HDD - $130 (for storage)
http://www.computerforum.com/222968-wanted-powerful-32-bit-system.html



In the second build, I just asked for a motherboard and processor, which I think is the tricky part, and was suggested either an i7 3770 and an ASRock H77 PRO4 MVP, or an i7 3770k and an ASRock Z77 PRO3 if I want to overclock. Which brings me to another question:
Is overclocking a good idea? I don't really understand the point of it to be honest, because wouldn't the manufacturer set the processor at whatever it should be set at in the first place?http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Apd.bByMUSJf_iEuJ1o1bqDsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20130626121312AAV2xkd

I would like to use an IBM ThinkCentre 8171-4XU Small form-factor case. I have been told by some that this might be problematic. Is it really an actual problem that the IBM case is proprietary? Can't the motherboard, power supply, and other hardware be replaced anyhow? I have a Dell case which is proprietary: it has these green slidey sliders that serves as a securing mechanism for the drives and such. But I don't see why these mechanisms couldn't be applied to new parts and installed.

Thanks,
Thomas

 

[mfenn]

For your first build, can you update your post with the answers to these questions (most importantly budget). Off the top of my head:
- No reason to get a Z series motherboard if not overclocking (one of the questionnaire questions)
- 4GB is not enough for having lots of programs open at once, 8 or 16GB is better (depending on budget)
- For the best IGP performance, you will want to get a Haswell CPU
- No need to get a Samsung 840 Pro over the EVO for normal desktop use
- Seagate 7200 RPM drives don't cost much more than the 5400-5900 RPM ones, so I'd always go 7200 RPM.

As for your second build, OEM cases in general and small form factor cases in particular do use standard mounting for components like HDDs, ODDs, and expansion cards. However, the motherboard mounting and front panel connectors get tricky. SFF machines in particular are not normally any standard form factor, but rather what fits the best in the case.

 

[thomase13]

Thanks for your reply!

First of all, just to clarify, only one computer is being built here. I just was recommended two possible builds for it.
My budget is about $1337, give or take. Of course I hope I won't need to spend that much, but I will if need be.
I am in Canada, and I'm planning to buy my parts from TigerDirect.ca

My question about the processor is: why should I overclock?
What is the benefit of doing such a thing? Wouldn't the manufacturer's default settings be the best, or am I missing something here?

I'm not very technical, but I guess it would make sense to be getting the latest generation of processor. If I want to get a new Haswell CPU, then can I just change the 3770 to a 4770, for example? Does it work like that? Also, is it really the best to have an integrated graphics card?

What do you think about the solid-state drive question above?
I'm not sure I need two terabytes of hard drive space, as that seems like an infinite amount that I could never possible use, but I suppose I might as well get at least one terabyte, for the distant future. In any case, I will definitely go for the 7200 RPM drive. I ask these questions, as I currently have an external hard drive which holds multiple copies (my files are a mess) of just about every program and file I have ever had in my life (including pictures and videos), and it is taking up 140GB.

Do you really think it will be a problem to use this particular small form factor case?
I really would like to use this case, and you say motherboard mounting and front panel connectors could be tricky, which is fine, but would it be impossible?
If this can't work, there is a regular IBM tower I was looking at, but I would really like the SFF one to work, because then you can sit your monitor upon it, and it takes up so much less desk space!!!



To answer the rest of the questionnaire questions:

• I plan to be using either XGA or XGA+ resolution.
• I plan to build this around the middle of next month. (December 2013)
• I don't foresee having to buy any software for this machine.

I'm not sure how these are relevant, but there they are!

Thanks again,
Thomas

 

[ElFenix]

haswell uses a different socket from sandy/ivybridge, so you can't just drop in a new haswell to that board. that board won't work with that processor, a haswell will work with that board, tho.

i wouldn't get a prior gen processor and board unless you're getting a good deal on them. you're not, so i would go with an 8 series board and 4 series processor (thanks for not making that confusing, intel!).

 

[thomase13]

Alright,

So do you have any recommendations on the new board/processor I should get?
Just out of curiosity, do they keep changing the socket just to make things incompatible and life more difficult and complicated, or is there an actual legitimate reason for it?

Thanks,
Thomas

 

[ElFenix]

actually, the board you've got listed is an 8 series board, which won't work with the 3 series processor you've got.

so, if not overclocking, the i5-4570 would be my choice. just be careful not to get the S version, which is actually quite a bit slower.

just noticed the ram you picked has been discontinued. so you could get this stuff here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148715
though i strongly suggest you get 8 GB (4 GB x 2) instead of just one stick.

Just out of curiosity, do they keep changing the socket just to make things incompatible and life more difficult and complicated, or is there an actual legitimate reason for it?

yes

 

[thomase13]

My question about overclocking, as asked earlier, is: is it necessary or beneficial? How?

Also, do you think it is at all worth it to go for the i7 over i5? (i.e., 4770 over 4570?

Thanks,
Thomas

 

[ElFenix]

necessary, no

beneficial, could be. you can get more performance because you're making the processor run at a higher MHz. when processing videos that means the processing can happen faster.

as far as i7, you'd have to look at your particular software to see how it responds to hyperthreading.

edit: if you can benefit from hyperthreading, the xeon e3-1230 v3 is a way better buy than the i7.

 

[thomase13]

Alright, thank you for this.
i7 just sounds so much higher-end than i5, but it's probably unnecessary for my use.
I use Adobe Premiere Elements for video editing, and the Sims may be one of those things too, but I don't know.

What do you think of the other questions mentioned in my previous posts?

 

[John Connor]

The Xeon E31240V3 Is what I would go with. It's slightly better than the E31230V3.

You asked about SSDs. They are a plus! Huge improvement!

Silverstone makes some good cases. This is the one I will be buying. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163227

It's cheaper!

 

[bononos]

Alright, thank you for this.
i7 just sounds so much higher-end than i5, but it's probably unnecessary for my use.
I use Adobe Premiere Elements for video editing, and the Sims may be one of those things too, but I don't know.

What do you think of the other questions mentioned in my previous posts?

Video editing and transcoding apps like Adobe Premiere generally make good use of the extra hyperthreading cores to make it worthwhile but again its probably something you would want to try out or benchmark first to be sure.
Sims type games, not worth the jump to i7 from what I know.
Get a Haswell, its the new gen.

 

[ElFenix]

the xeons don't have integrated graphics, but pretty much any card should be able to run the Sims.

 

[mfenn]

I really would like to use this case, and you say motherboard mounting and front panel connectors could be tricky, which is fine, but would it be impossible?

Nothing is impossible, it just depends on how much extra work you are willing to do (drilling holes, making custom wiring harnesses, finding appropriate risers). IMHO it's not worth it. There's plenty of standard small form factor cases that you can get.

Here's a build from Newegg.ca (feel free to price it out against TD, their website just sucks):

Xeon E3-1245 V3 $300
Gigabyte GA-Z87N-WIFI $130 AR
Team DDR3 1600 16GB $126
Samsung 840 EVO 120GB $100
Seagate 2TB 7200RPM $95
Samsung Slim DVD Burner $30
Silverstone 450W SFX $80
Silverstone Sugo SG05B $50
Total: $911 AR BT

Now, about that monitor. XGA (aka. 1024x768) is way too small in today's day and age. I'd highly recommend getting a new monitor like the Dell Ultrasharp U2312HM for $200.

 

[mfenn]

the xeons don't have integrated graphics, but pretty much any card should be able to run the Sims.

The E3-12x5 Xeons do have IGPs equivalent to their i5/i7 counterparts.

 

[thomase13]

Thank you for your replies!
It now seems to me that paying the extra money for hyperthreading is probably not worth it, as I don't even know if Adobe Premiere Elements 7 would support it.
EDIT: I looked it up, and Premiere Elements 7 does in fact support hyper-threading — on the latest Pentium 4 processors. Does this mean that it would still support hyper-threading on newer processors?


My biggest questions which remain are:

1. Is the extra ~$100 for hyper-threading worth it, and
2. Why does the Xeon E3-1245 V3 $15 cheaper than the Core i7-4770, although they seem to have exactly the same specifications as far as I can see?
3. Does it make any difference that the Xeon is a "server" processor? What does that even mean?
4. What's the deal with the Integrated Graphics?
   I always thought that having integrated graphics was inferior to a real graphics card. Is this not true?
5. The i5 and i7 has "Intel HD IGP", whereas the Xeon just has a regular IGP? Does this make any difference to anybody?
6. What is the stability of SSDs like? Will they corrupt your files?
   This is the bad thing I have heard about them, although I've also heard they make a world of difference speedwise. Is this old information? Would they really sell a product that is that unreliable? Have I anything to worry about?

Thanks again,
Thomas

 

[Torn Mind]

Whether HyperThreading is worth it depends somewhat on how demanding the tasks you do are and what hardware are you upgrading from. Jumping from a Core 2 Duo or Quad to a Haswell i5 will still bring an immense productivity boost even if you don't get Hyperthreading, for example.

Server processors support ECC memory, but that doesn't really matter if putting them in a consumer board, since most, if not all, LGA 1150 consumer boards are incompatible with ECC memory. They might be better binned, meaning that they have slight observed differences such as draw slightly less power than a different chip. But otherwise, the are pretty much the same.

Integrated graphics are worse than most of the relatively current discrete cards on the market. But integrated graphics in the Haswell Xeon is likely better than even the highest end card from 2006.

Something like the 9800 GTX will likely edge out vs the Haswell IGP, but old lower end cards from that era are on par or worse than Haswell IGPs.

Intel HD IGP is likely just name the give the IGP. The Xeon IGP is practically the same most likely, but apparently "certified" for programs like Photoshop. The Xeon IGP is called the P4600, and info is here in this link: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...ance-xeon-e3-1200-hd-graphics-p4000-guide.pdf

SSDs make navigating the OS and basics tasks "snappier". SSDs, when functioning properly, are no different from normal hard drives. The main concern is that the failure modes of an SSD is typically sudden, meaning that you could suddenly lose access to all of you data without warning. Whereas with old-fashioned hard drives, many could get away with running the drive since they can fail gradually. That is not to say HDDs could not fail suddenly either, but that "good" drives give out signs of dying well before the drive becomes completely non-functional.

Another concern was apparently with drives using Sandforce firmware in the past. I'm not sure about the details though, but there were quite some problems with regards to those drives.

 

[thomase13]

Alright!

Thank you for shedding some light onto this!
So what I understand from that is that I can get a processor that has a slightly higher clock speed [of the IGP], and is "certified" for a number of applications for $15 less.
Strange.

My question is: Will an older version of Premiere Elements [version 7] that supports hyper-threading be hyper-threading-compatible with this new processor?

 

[thomase13]

Is ECC memory something that would be good to have / is possible to get on a normal board that I would get / something worth looking into?

In your opinion, is the risk of losing data worth the speed boost of an SSD over a regular old 7200 RPM hard drive?
Is ECC memory a viable option to help with this?

Thanks!

 

[Torn Mind]

Xeons might not be compatible with every consumer board out there, but most boards do support them. I think that Intel does have to cater to small businesses who don't need a Xeon E5 and X79 board to run a server. Besides, most folks don't know the Xeons are out there.

ECC checks for data corruption in memory. It works regardless of hard drive. I do not believe consumer chipsets support it. You will need to get a board with a C222, C224, or C226 chipset found on server or select workstation boards.
No, it won't do anything if the hard drive or SSD fails catastrophically.

The way to mitigate the risk of losing data when running an SSD is simply backing up/cloning the install partition using something like Clonezilla, Acronis, Macrium Reflect, etc. It's something that should be done even with traditional platter drives anyway since they too can fail catastrophically.

I would guess that the old Premiere elements would recognize the "new" Hyperthreading.

 

[thomase13]

Wow, thanks so much!
I think I will go with the Xeon E3-1245 V3 because it has a 0.2 GHz-faster clock speed, it supports hyperthreading, and is only an extra $85! Pocket change!​

The SSD idea scares me a bit, but I suppose I should have nothing to worry about if I back up my things! As has been pointed out, any drive can fail, even good old-fashioned hard disk drive! An SSD would make things so much faster, I just can't pass it up.​

I think I will go for the 250 GB SSD.
The Samsung 840 was recommended, but my question is: What is the difference between the EVO and Pro? Fifty more dollars for 6 extra gigabytes?
I must be missing something here.​

Thanks again,
Thomas​

 

[thomase13]

In all seriousness though, does anyone seriously think I can justify spending $85 more for the Xeon processor as opposed to the i5 (4570), given what I said above?

 

[Torn Mind]

In all seriousness though, does anyone seriously think I can justify spending $85 more for the Xeon processor as opposed to the i5 (4570), given what I said above?

Depends on how demanding your video projects are. The longer and more intensive the video, the more it stands to benefit from Hyperthreading. The faster the project is finished, the more time you have to do something else.

How long your projects currently take might also help swing your decision one way or the other. Knowing you current hardware can help gauge the gap from your current hardware and the Haswell i5 or i7/Xeon. If it's something like a Core 2 Duo or an even older and slower Pentium 4, just an i5 will cut the time to complete the project a lot.

 

[thomase13]

Just to clarify, does hyper-threading really just affect the exporting of videos, or would it also affect the speed of video editing itself?

 

[lehtv]

It would probably not noticeably affect the fluidity of video editing. What you'll need for editing smoothly is (1) four fast cores (2) plenty of RAM and (3) an SSD.

The Xeon E3-1245 V3 makes no sense to me... there's a combo deal with an i7 that ends up costing less: i7-4770 + Z87N-WiFi $415. There's also a similar combo involving the 4670K for $350 but I would pay a bit of extra for HT. Speeds up encoding nicely.

 

[mfenn]

The Xeon E3-1245 V3 makes no sense to me... there's a combo deal with an i7 that ends up costing less: i7-4770 + Z87N-WiFi $415. There's also a similar combo involving the 4670K for $350 but I would pay a bit of extra for HT. Speeds up encoding nicely.

The OP is in Canada, so the parts are more expensive and that combo deal doesn't exist.