Like I said, read my reply to him, which he fully quoted in his remarkably insightful final comment.
Despite your reply, I believe the process that led to relative peace with Egypt and Jordan can also be applied to Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. Do you? If not, could you clarify?
The Oslo accords were supposed to take care of the Palestinians, but money was stolen, and hatered & violence perpetuated.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon, and Hezbollah kept the violence going. Now that there is UN involvement, lets see if they are ready to stop all the bullshit.
Syria is a different case, due to its posture, and its meddling in Lebanon; we'll have to see how that develops.
Other than that, you just made vague statements regarding what could be done, without any details, nor on how the Jordanian/Egyptian "process" can be applied to the other cases.
Finally, you are forgetting that the Jordanians signed the peace treaty after the Oslo accords, when everybody thought that Arafat had good intentions, and meant buisiness; this is a very important detail in the chronology of things.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon, and Hezbollah kept the violence going. Now that there is UN involvement, lets see if they are ready to stop all the bullshit.
Syria is a different case, due to its posture, and its meddling in Lebanon; we'll have to see how that develops.
Other than that, you just made vague statements regarding what could be done, without any details, nor on how the Jordanian/Egyptian "process" can be applied to the other cases.
Finally, you are forgetting that the Jordanians signed the peace treaty after the Oslo accords, when everybody thought that Arafat had good intentions, and meant buisiness; this is a very important detail in the chronology of things.
And now you are wrong. The Oslo accord did NOT take care of the Palestinians. The Oslo accord was only suppose to be a start of the process, if did NOT include the difficult problems such as the return of the refugees or the future status of Jerusalem.
The problem is that youa re focusing on Hezbollah, no one denies that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. However, just like in the case of e.g. IRA and ETA it is probably impossible to defeat them by using force. Hence, the only way to solve this is still a political proccess. Hezbollah depends on Syria and Iran for military support and on the support of the people in Lebanon. Remove these three things and Hezbollah will have no choice but to get involved in a political process, just like IRA and ETA.
The problem is that youa re focusing on Hezbollah, no one denies that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. However, just like in the case of e.g. IRA and ETA it is probably impossible to defeat them by using force. Hence, the only way to solve this is still a political proccess. Hezbollah depends on Syria and Iran for military support and on the support of the people in Lebanon. Remove these three things and Hezbollah will have no choice but to get involved in a political process, just like IRA and ETA.
Don't put words in my mouth: I said "supposed to take care", so yeah, the start of the process.
Since you raise the folkloric refugee status, you'd have to address the Jewish Refugees, as well as other factors, such as the call of the Arab League to the Palestinians to evacuate prior to the 1948 war.
...therefore it is the responsibility of Lebanon.
Ah, ok, so it is fine for countries to wage proxy wars, right?
Would it be also ok if (hpothetical situation begins) I was egging your house because one of your neighbors didn't like the gnome on your lawn, and another had an issue with you being in the neighborhood? Would you ignore me, and "negotiate" with the neighbors? (end of hypothetical)
So, yeah, what is there to negotiate with Iran? How does Iran have anything to do, or against Israel, not even sharing a border, nor ever fighting a war with it?
You are once again missing the point. There is not "right" way to solve this. No matter what the only way to find a solution to this conflict is essentially to reward what most people consider to be "evil deeds". E.g. releasing people responsible for acts of terrorism from jail.
So no, it is not fine for countries to wage proxy wars. But countries DO fight proxy wars and it is often a very succesfull strategy and there isn't much we can do about it.
The fact that Syria and Iran is (succesfully) helping Hezbollah DOES give them a bargaining chip in any negotiation whether we like it or not.
The conflict between Isreal and Iran is closely linked to the conflict between Iran and the US. I don't know what Iran would like in return but I imagine it would be something from the US, e.g. access to some equipment that they at the moment are forced to import from north Korea. Irans economy isn't exacly in good shape and I suspect investments would also be welcome.
And about your analogy: At first I would probably try to stop you but I imagined that once I had realized that it was impossible, yes, I would negotiate with the neighbors. What matters it the result, how you get there is less important.
So no, it is not fine for countries to wage proxy wars. But countries DO fight proxy wars and it is often a very succesfull strategy and there isn't much we can do about it.
The fact that Syria and Iran is (succesfully) helping Hezbollah DOES give them a bargaining chip in any negotiation whether we like it or not.
The conflict between Isreal and Iran is closely linked to the conflict between Iran and the US. I don't know what Iran would like in return but I imagine it would be something from the US, e.g. access to some equipment that they at the moment are forced to import from north Korea. Irans economy isn't exacly in good shape and I suspect investments would also be welcome.
And about your analogy: At first I would probably try to stop you but I imagined that once I had realized that it was impossible, yes, I would negotiate with the neighbors. What matters it the result, how you get there is less important.
You do realize what you're saying, right?
Iran and Syria can wage proxy war, but if Israel attacks Southern Lebanon -- where Hezbollah is entrenched -- then there are all these rules of engagement, and precautions that need to be taken.
If Iran and Syria are allowed to wage proxy war, then Israel should be allowed to transform southern Lebanon into a wasteland from which any guerilla force will find it very hard to operate. WIthout all the civilian infrastruture, Hezbollah would have a very difficult time operating, and that includes mounting attacks on outposts, building bunkers and tunnels, as well as firing rockets at cities in Israel.
P.S.
Again, I can hardly wait for all the moral elitist and hypocrites to start condmening me for even thinking of wasting southern Lebanon. Bring it on
Says who?
A state being attacked, is a state being attacked, whether it's a republic, a democracy, a dictatorship, or a monarchy. And an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, along with a nation that is complicit, hardly give any further credibility for enforcing "rules".
The only thing that is being in-force is hypocrisy, and that's only because one could go to Israel and voice their opinion, while if you went to Hezbollah territory, you'd likely to be hanging from a tree in less than 5 minutes.
If you really want to accomplish something, then stop barking up the wrong tree, and go and complain to Iran & Syria, even though it won't make you look as "cool" as you are by bashing Israel.
A state being attacked, is a state being attacked, whether it's a republic, a democracy, a dictatorship, or a monarchy. And an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, along with a nation that is complicit, hardly give any further credibility for enforcing "rules".
The only thing that is being in-force is hypocrisy, and that's only because one could go to Israel and voice their opinion, while if you went to Hezbollah territory, you'd likely to be hanging from a tree in less than 5 minutes.
If you really want to accomplish something, then stop barking up the wrong tree, and go and complain to Iran & Syria, even though it won't make you look as "cool" as you are by bashing Israel.
Yes, but complaining to Iran and Syria wouldn't help, would it? The fact that Israel IS a democracy is the reason WHY we are complaining to them, chances are they might actually listen.
A country can not choose *when* it wants to be a democracy, either it is or it isn't.
The moment we start to play by THEIR rules they have won.
A country can not choose *when* it wants to be a democracy, either it is or it isn't.
The moment we start to play by THEIR rules they have won.
Do you even see the absurdity of your argument?
It's like asking the victim to negotiate with the mugger because the mugger wants money no matter what, and nothing will make him change his mind; a reasonable person would just say "smack the mugger, and don't give him a penny".
What does democracy has to do with self defense?
The people in Israel voted a government into power, and if they aren't satisfied with how the recent conflict was conducted, then party in power will no longer be running the show.
Unfortunately, since there are people like you, they are already winning: they can wage their proxy wars, and use Labanon as a battle ground, while you can say nothing better than that Israel must negotiate (god knows what with Iran), because there is no other way.
Well, Israel can do whatever it thinks it needs to do to defend its citizens, and at the end of the day it will still be a democracy, while in Lebanon, pepole won't dare to complain too much about Hezbollah -- not even Siniora, and the other members of parlament -- because they know they will be assasinated as swiftly and brutally that Hariri was.
It's like asking the victim to negotiate with the mugger because the mugger wants money no matter what, and nothing will make him change his mind; a reasonable person would just say "smack the mugger, and don't give him a penny".
What does democracy has to do with self defense?
The people in Israel voted a government into power, and if they aren't satisfied with how the recent conflict was conducted, then party in power will no longer be running the show.
Unfortunately, since there are people like you, they are already winning: they can wage their proxy wars, and use Labanon as a battle ground, while you can say nothing better than that Israel must negotiate (god knows what with Iran), because there is no other way.
Well, Israel can do whatever it thinks it needs to do to defend its citizens, and at the end of the day it will still be a democracy, while in Lebanon, pepole won't dare to complain too much about Hezbollah -- not even Siniora, and the other members of parlament -- because they know they will be assasinated as swiftly and brutally that Hariri was.
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