Dershowitz: Amnesty International Redefines "War Crimes"

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Normally, I would pass on a divot noob but here's your education for the day.

Heh, quoting the BBC.... that's hardly an unbiased source.
Nevertheless, at least you had the good sense to quote that part saying that cluster bombs are not forbidden by international law.

Bomb the airport, bomb the roads, bomb the bridges, bomb fuel depots . . . that's collective punishment. You can attack leadership . . . granted IDF tried and failed. You can even attack military opposition within civilian areas IF you take real actions to minimize the civilian impact. Bombing all moving vehicles is a sure sign no effort was being taken to separate combatant from civilian.

Trucks need roads and bridges to travel easily; they also need fuel to travel around. Hezbollah uses trucks with Katyusha lauchers, and besides what they had south of the river, I'm sure they had more north of the river. Crossings to syria had to be bombed, since it is obvious from where they are getting their supplies.

Just like all Hezbollah appologists you seem to be putting quite a few conditions and restrictions on how Israel should react -- notice the keyword "react". So far you had no issues with an enemy that wears no uniform, and survives by mingling with civilians. Heck, their entire logistics are entrenched in every village town and city, particularly in southern Lebanon.

Why don't you tell us your doctrine for fighting such an enemy, while avoiding collective punishment, civilian infrastructure, and all the other human-rights buzzwords....

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Normally, I would pass on a divot noob but here's your education for the day.

Heh, quoting the BBC.... that's hardly an unbiased source.
Nevertheless, at least you had the good sense to quote that part saying that cluster bombs are not forbidden by international law.

Bomb the airport, bomb the roads, bomb the bridges, bomb fuel depots . . . that's collective punishment. You can attack leadership . . . granted IDF tried and failed. You can even attack military opposition within civilian areas IF you take real actions to minimize the civilian impact. Bombing all moving vehicles is a sure sign no effort was being taken to separate combatant from civilian.

Trucks need roads and bridges to travel easily; they also need fuel to travel around. Hezbollah uses trucks with Katyusha lauchers, and besides what they had south of the river, I'm sure they had more north of the river. Crossings to syria had to be bombed, since it is obvious from where they are getting their supplies.

Just like all Hezbollah appologists you seem to be putting quite a few conditions and restrictions on how Israel should react -- notice the keyword "react". So far you had no issues with an enemy that wears no uniform, and survives by mingling with civilians. Heck, their entire logistics are entrenched in every village town and city, particularly in southern Lebanon.

Why don't you tell us your doctrine for fighting such an enemy, while avoiding collective punishment, civilian infrastructure, and all the other human-rights buzzwords....

So that's the defense, whining about how difficult the job at hand is? Fighting terrorism is different than fighting an entire nation state, and in some ways it is more difficult. That doesn't mean you can just throw up your hands and start bombing the crap out of everything in sight.

That said, I don't think Israel is guilty of "war crimes". At most their guilty of very poor decision making and a rather disturbing lack of restraint for a group of people with a number of nuclear weapons.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So that's the defense, whining about how difficult the job at hand is? Fighting terrorism is different than fighting an entire nation state, and in some ways it is more difficult. That doesn't mean you can just throw up your hands and start bombing the crap out of everything in sight.

Now, after you've stated the obvious, answer my question -- what is your strategy for handling a terrorist organization that is based and operates in another sovreign country? (hence their responsibility)

By the way, if they had bombed the crap out of everything, then there wouldn't be any need for any ground operations.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So that's the defense, whining about how difficult the job at hand is? Fighting terrorism is different than fighting an entire nation state, and in some ways it is more difficult. That doesn't mean you can just throw up your hands and start bombing the crap out of everything in sight.

Now, after you've stated the obvious, answer my question -- what is your strategy for handling a terrorist organization that is based and operates in another sovreign country? (hence their responsibility)

By the way, if they had bombed the crap out of everything, then there wouldn't be any need for any ground operations.

Wow! By the way how can you post at 9AM? Oh yeah, homeschooling . . .

partisan hacks from Associated Press via yahoo

The State Department is investigating whether Israel's use of three types of American cluster munitions ? anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area ? violated secret agreements with the United States that restrict when such arms can be employed, The New York Times reported Friday.

Not that the US government (under current leadership) has particularly good morals . . .

"It's not illegal to use (cluster bombs) against soldiers or your enemy, but according to Geneva Conventions it's illegal to use them in civilian areas," Farran said. "But it's not up to us to decide if it's illegal ? I'm just giving facts and letting others do analysis."

In essence, no matter the IDF excuse . . . they are in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Israel said it was forced to hit civilian targets in Lebanon because Hezbollah fighters were using villages as a base for rocket-launchers aimed at Israel. Some 850 Lebanese and 157 Israelis died in the fighting.

The bad guys made them do it.:roll:
Next thing you know people will be arguing that terrorists are the reason the government is opening international mail, wiretapping domestic calls, violating the Bill of Rights, . . .

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Wow! By the way how can you post at 9AM? Oh yeah, homeschooling . . .

Conjencturing isn't your forte, so stop torturing your brain....

The bad guys made them do it.:roll:
Next thing you know people will be arguing that terrorists are the reason the government is opening international mail, wiretapping domestic calls, violating the Bill of Rights, . . .

You forget to answer the key question: what is your strategy for dealing with Hezbollah?

Also, how many of those 857 Lebanese are Hezbollah fighters?

Hmm... 857.... only a few weeks ago people were screaming bloody murder over thousands of alleged casualties; I wonder where all the thousands of dead vanished.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

My strategy for dealing with Hezbollah? Rewind the clock to early July and take a chill pill. Like magic nearly 1000 Lebanese are alive, Lebanon is whole, nearly 200 Israelis are alive, $500m+ is still in the treasury, and two IDF soldiers are retrieved . . . for the tidy sum of . . . a few militants.

Suffice it to say . . . I'm done with you. At first I thought you were merely ignorant. But from your last post it appears you are ignorant and an ugly person. I can suffer fools but not those with little respect for human life.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
. . . for the tidy sum of . . . a few militants.

Heh, you should talk of ignorance.... a few means at least several hundreds.
I guess then that you would have had Hezbollah continue expanding their then 13,000+ stockpile of rockets, their bunkers, their tunnels which almost extended into Israel, right under the border.

Under your plan we'd have the same situation repeat itself in a few months -- "like magic".

Suffice it to say . . . I'm done with you. At first I thought you were merely ignorant. But from your last post it appears you are ignorant and an ugly person. I can suffer fools but not those with little respect for human life.

What a surprise -- you're a moral elitist and a hypocrite; quite a combination.

You forgot to include in your magic formula above those 8 soldiers killed when the other two were kidnapped, but those are acceptable sacrifices for "a few" militants, right?

So much for blabbing about respect for human life. :disgust:

 

[Narmer]

Hebullah is a "terrorist" organization.

Israel is a member of the United Nations and is considered a Western nation.

Who is AI going to complain about? Who should have the higher standard? Who should be accountable for their actions?

As for Muslim-against-Muslim atrocities, AI has railed against those nations in the past as well. But for Western nations, they are held to the highest standards because they are the ones going around harping about how great their civilization is and how everyone should have democracy like them.

Dershowitz's foundation, although patriotic, is flawed and may be bad for Israel itself in the long run. You can't claim a right to do wrong because you see others doing the same.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So that's the defense, whining about how difficult the job at hand is? Fighting terrorism is different than fighting an entire nation state, and in some ways it is more difficult. That doesn't mean you can just throw up your hands and start bombing the crap out of everything in sight.

Now, after you've stated the obvious, answer my question -- what is your strategy for handling a terrorist organization that is based and operates in another sovreign country? (hence their responsibility)

By the way, if they had bombed the crap out of everything, then there wouldn't be any need for any ground operations.

Terrorist organizations cannot be defeated militarily. You have to defeat them politically. That means that you find out why they exist, what they want, and how do you meet their demands in a rational way. Remember, Hezbullah was created after Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon in 1982.

 

[imported_dna]

Genius! You know history!

However, did you forget Israel pulled out in 2000 -- several years before Syria ended its occupation of Lebanon -- and also that Hezbolla is opperating in a sovreign state that should be dealing with what is going on it its territory? (also, don't forget Israel went in in 1982 due to lots of terrorism from Lebanon in the preceding years)

As for higher standards -- don't expect countries to "turn the other" cheek when they are attacked; Hezbollah has been up for this kind of crap ever since Israel got out, and has been amassing a great arsenal of weapons, building bunkers, and a web of tunnels that were to cross into Israel. The response has been very much proportional to the threat, as the 4,000 rockets fired over the border proved.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna
Genius! You know history!

However, did you forget Israel pulled out in 2000 -- several years before Syria ended its occupation of Lebanon --
Israel pulled out but they continued to assassinate Lebanese on Lebanese soil. They also continued their fly-overs. Furthermore, Israel continued to kidnap Lebanese people
and also that Hezbolla is opperating in a sovreign state that should be dealing with what is going on it its territory? (also, don't forget Israel went in in 1982 due to lots of terrorism from Lebanon in the preceding years)
OK, Israel went in there to chase the PLO, who were fighting for their homeland. They ended up staying for another 18 years. In the mean time, another terrorist group was formed. Basically, Israel's actions cause the creation of another terror organization.

As for higher standards -- don't expect countries to "turn the other" cheek when they are attacked; Hezbollah has been up for this kind of crap ever since Israel got out, and has been amassing a great arsenal of weapons, building bunkers, and a web of tunnels that were to cross into Israel. The response has been very much proportional to the threat, as the 4,000 rockets fired over the border proved.

Yeah right. Of all the cluster bombs dropped in Lebanon, 90 percent of it was dropped in the last 72 hours, when Israel knew there was going to be a ceasefire. Proportional my ass. Anyway, I'm glad you're not one of the Israelis that are going to be a part of the inquiry in this loss. Maybe they will learn that force isn't the only answer, especially when dealing with a guerilla army. A political solution is the best way. In a way you yourself has acknowledged that. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005/6 unilaterally. After they pulled out, they were still attacked. THe point is, you cannot end these protean wars on your own, you need to come to a political solution, not unilateral or military solution, with your opponent. Maybe the Israelis will learn from this and not have this inquiry be a whitewash.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Narmer
Yeah right. Of all the cluster bombs dropped in Lebanon, 90 percent of it was dropped in the last 72 hours, when Israel knew there was going to be a ceasefire. Proportional my ass.

Aha, after 4,000 rockets.... you point is? Are we going to see an inquiry about that?

A political solution is the best way.

Yes, an armchair politician. What is the political solution? To what problem?
Israel already got out. Did you hear the Lebanese goverment attempt any political solution?
Oh, right, I forgot -- they have a separatist organization running the southern half of the country.

In a way you yourself has acknowledged that. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005/6 unilaterally. After they pulled out, they were still attacked. THe point is, you cannot end these protean wars on your own, you need to come to a political solution, not unilateral or military solution, with your opponent.

No, my friend -- the point is they are not interested in a political solution. If you had seen their propaganda, then you'd know that. People brainwashing children to become suicide bombers are not interested in a political solution.

If you wish to continue deluding yourself about it -- go ahead, but at least don't don't promote Hezbollah propaganda.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Narmer
Yeah right. Of all the cluster bombs dropped in Lebanon, 90 percent of it was dropped in the last 72 hours, when Israel knew there was going to be a ceasefire. Proportional my ass.

Aha, after 4,000 rockets.... you point is? Are we going to see an inquiry about that?

A political solution is the best way.

Yes, an armchair politician. What is the political solution? To what problem?
Israel already got out. Did you hear the Lebanese goverment attempt any political solution?
Oh, right, I forgot -- they have a separatist organization running the southern half of the country.

In a way you yourself has acknowledged that. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005/6 unilaterally. After they pulled out, they were still attacked. THe point is, you cannot end these protean wars on your own, you need to come to a political solution, not unilateral or military solution, with your opponent.

No, my friend -- the point is they are not interested in a political solution. If you had seen their propaganda, then you'd know that. People brainwashing children to become suicide bombers are not interested in a political solution.

If you wish to continue deluding yourself about it -- go ahead, but at least don't don't promote Hezbollah propaganda.

No, a political solution won't give Hezbullah or Hamas an excuse to fight. A military or uniliteral solution, however, will. You cannot blame them for continuing to fight if you decide to walk away from a territory without coming to an agreement with you enemies. It simply doesn't make any sense. I don't think I could explain it any simpler. What part of that do you not understand? Please ask me if you don't understand my logic.

 

[f95toli]

You might be right that some members of Hezbolla are not intersted in a political solution. However, Hezbolla does not operate in a vacuum. They have a lot of supporters in Lebanon and they recieved weapons and equipment from Syria and Iran.
Now, as Narmer has pointed out the only way to end this is a political process.
The point is that this is a very complex problem and in order for a political settlement to have any chance to succeed it must not only address the situation in Lebanon but also Israels conflict with Syria and Iran as well as e.g. the future of Jerusalem.
All of these issues are relatated. Once there is a political solution the support for Hezbolla and other armed groups will dwindle fast. Just as it did in Northern Irland and more lately in Spain.
There are definitly members of IRA,UDP and ETA that would like to go one fighting but large organizations like that can not operate without public support. In e.g. Spain the government had very little success when they tried to defeat ETA directly. However, now there has been a political process where the basks have gained a limited independence and suddenly ETA is in a lot of trouble because public opinion support a political solution.
ETA is FORCED to change, it does not matter if they want to or not.
Granted, the situation in Spain is very different from the situation in the middle east. However, I think it illustrates an important point.

edit:spelling...

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Narmer
No, a political solution won't give Hezbullah or Hamas an excuse to fight. A military or uniliteral solution, however, will. You cannot blame them for continuing to fight if you decide to walk away from a territory without coming to an agreement with you enemies. It simply doesn't make any sense. I don't think I could explain it any simpler. What part of that do you not understand? Please ask me if you don't understand my logic.

That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard so far!

The whole point for their existance was for Israel to get out, and it got out; it's not like Hezbollah ever advocated for a political process.
Now that Israel is out, you're still blaming it for all that happens.

If anything, the withdrawl of Israel from Lebanon should've gotten you to stop being a Hezbollah apologist.

As for Hamas, the Oslo process was supposed to be the political solution, up until it was clear that Arafat was more interested in stealing money, and increasing the cycle of violence.

Like I said -- watch their propaganda aimed at children, and you'll know their intentions...

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Narmer
No, a political solution won't give Hezbullah or Hamas an excuse to fight. A military or uniliteral solution, however, will. You cannot blame them for continuing to fight if you decide to walk away from a territory without coming to an agreement with you enemies. It simply doesn't make any sense. I don't think I could explain it any simpler. What part of that do you not understand? Please ask me if you don't understand my logic.

That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard so far!

The whole point for their existance was for Israel to get out, and it got out; it's not like Hezbollah ever advocated for a political process.
Now that Israel is out, you're still blaming it for all that happens.

If anything, the withdrawl of Israel from Lebanon should've gotten you to stop being a Hezbollah apologist.

As for Hamas, the Oslo process was supposed to be the political solution, up until it was clear that Arafat was more interested in stealing money, and increasing the cycle of violence.

Like I said -- watch their propaganda aimed at children, and you'll know their intentions...

I'm no apologist for anyone. But you would have to admit that it was stupid of Israel to just leave a land like Lebanon unilaterally, but decided to continue flyovers and assassinations in Lebanon. It just goes to show that Israel feels like they could do whatever they want, whenever they want.

It's the same with the occupied territories in Palestine. They left Gaza but decided to expand settlements, built security fences, and keep military bases in the West Bank. Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum and they shouldn't act as if they did. They need to come to agreements with their enemies. That would be the logical thing to do. Don't you think? They shouldn't be arrogant enough to think that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Narmer
I'm no apologist for anyone. But you would have to admit that it was stupid of Israel to just leave a land like Lebanon unilaterally, but decided to continue flyovers and assassinations in Lebanon. It just goes to show that Israel feels like they could do whatever they want, whenever they want.

Right, because once Israel pulled out, Hezbollah stopped their attacks on border outpust, their rocket firing, soldier kidnapping, and their weapon hoarding.....

Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum and they shouldn't act as if they did. They need to come to agreements with their enemies.

Do I really have to repeat this every time? Do you really think there is anything to talk about with people that brainwash their kids from the moment they can understand words? It's not like it is some fringe groups, it was on the PA TV for gods sake; that's what they talk about in the mosque every week.

You keep blabbing about a "political" solution, where one party would rather see the other dead, as it had for the past 60 years.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Narmer
I'm no apologist for anyone. But you would have to admit that it was stupid of Israel to just leave a land like Lebanon unilaterally, but decided to continue flyovers and assassinations in Lebanon. It just goes to show that Israel feels like they could do whatever they want, whenever they want.

Right, because once Israel pulled out, Hezbollah stopped their attacks on border outpust, their rocket firing, soldier kidnapping, and their weapon hoarding.....

That's exactly my point. Why should they stop if Israel just walks away without getting anything in return? Are you dense or do you have a problem understanding this? If I sound insulting, my apologies, but it's taken several posts for you to realize that Hezbullah simply won't dance to Israel's tune. They won't change because Israel walked away. If anything, they will follow Israel into Israel. This is moreso if Israel continues its flyovers and assassinations. TO Hezbullah, the war of attrition never ended because they didn't AGREE TO ANYTHING.

Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum and they shouldn't act as if they did. They need to come to agreements with their enemies.

Do I really have to repeat this every time? Do you really think there is anything to talk about with people that brainwash their kids from the moment they can understand words? It's not like it is some fringe groups, it was on the PA TV for gods sake; that's what they talk about in the mosque every week.

You keep blabbing about a "political" solution, where one party would rather see the other dead, as it had for the past 60 years.

Uhhh, Egypt and Jordan haven't had any problems with Israel since they came to a political solution with her. Israel needs to come to terms with Syria, Lebanon, but most importantly, Palestine. How difficult is that to understand?

 

[imported_dna]

I love your arguments -- "why should they stop?"......
Just typical: you have no expectations from Hezbollah, since they are a group of saints.

Egypt and Israel are separated by a sizeable, so it's not like they are right next door (people aren't right on the border). Furthermore, the agreement with Egypt was done out of position of power, and the leadership was willing to take this step -- Anwar Sadat used the peace accord to get closer to the West, and for that he paid with his life, and Egypt was ostracized in the Arab world. So, Egypt didn't just gain "peace" and the Sinai peninsula back, but also got it at least $1 billion a year from the USA (link). Seems like a pretty good deal to me, when taking into account the USSR was slowly crumbling.

The peace treaty with Jordan was signed in the mid 90's, so there were around 30 years from the last war, without major issues. King Hussein kept things calm for his own benefit, just like when he kicked out the PLO in the 70's. It seems to me that he didn't let the Palestinians do what they wanted, i.e. terror against Israel from Jordanian soil, because he knew that it might threaten his position again (like the PLO did). Jordan is also the only country that granted citizenship, or near-citizenship status to the Palestinians on its territory, enabling them to become part of the society, and to move on.

On the other hand, Syria and Lebanon still keep the Palestinians in camps, without many rights; it's the perfect means to distract the populace, as well as something to hold against Israel 60 years after the fact.

P.S.
It would be nice if you fixed up the quoting scheme you have there....

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: dna
I love your arguments -- "why should they stop?"......
Just typical: you have no expectations from Hezbollah, since they are a group of saints.

Egypt and Israel are separated by a sizeable, so it's not like they are right next door (people aren't right on the border). Furthermore, the agreement with Egypt was done out of position of power, and the leadership was willing to take this step -- Anwar Sadat used the peace accord to get closer to the West, and for that he paid with his life, and Egypt was ostracized in the Arab world. So, Egypt didn't just gain "peace" and the Sinai peninsula back, but also got it at least $1 billion a year from the USA (link). Seems like a pretty good deal to me, when taking into account the USSR was slowly crumbling.

The peace treaty with Jordan was signed in the mid 90's, so there were around 30 years from the last war, without major issues. King Hussein kept things calm for his own benefit, just like when he kicked out the PLO in the 70's. It seems to me that he didn't let the Palestinians do what they wanted, i.e. terror against Israel from Jordanian soil, because he knew that it might threaten his position again (like the PLO did). Jordan is also the only country that granted citizenship, or near-citizenship status to the Palestinians on its territory, enabling them to become part of the society, and to move on.

On the other hand, Syria and Lebanon still keep the Palestinians in camps, without many rights; it's the perfect means to distract the populace, as well as something to hold against Israel 60 years after the fact.

P.S.
It would be nice if you fixed up the quoting scheme you have there....

*Sigh* You're right, I'm wrong. I'm outta here.

 

[Cruise51]

double post..... sorry.

 

[Cruise51]

Uhhh, Egypt and Jordan haven't had any problems with Israel since they came to a political solution with her. Israel needs to come to terms with Syria, Lebanon, but most importantly, Palestine. How difficult is that to understand?

[/quote]

I agree 100%.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Narmer
*Sigh* You're right, I'm wrong. I'm outta here.

Ah, the righteous escape route -- ostensibly giving up on the argume, in an obvious attempt to cement their moral and intellectual superiority.

 

[imported_dna]

Cruise51, you're not bringing much to this discussion, and it is obvious that you did not read my reply to his assertions regarding the motives and manner in which brought Jordan and Egypt to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

 

[Cruise51]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Narmer
*Sigh* You're right, I'm wrong. I'm outta here.

Ah, the righteous escape route -- ostensibly giving up on the argume, in an obvious attempt to cement their moral and intellectual superiority.

I'm curious. Do you disagree with his comment on Egypt and Jordan?