Dems on outsourcing

[bctbct]

Well I believe in Peloski views for the most part, it is very clear, that Dems need to hire someone to tell them what they can and cannot say.

Why did Kerry lose...he lost a lot of voters over repealing the tax cuts.

It is time for Democrats to get together and lie like the Republicans, get elected and then do what they want to do.

Sucks that it has come to this, but as long as big business has money....the US will be sold to the best liar.

 

[HBalzer]

Originally posted by: conjur
Here's but one:
http://www.responsiblewealth.org/living_wage/qanda.html

Q. Won't forcing businesses to pay a living wage cause inflation and inhibit economic growth?

Three studies on existing living wage ordinances found early evidence that relatively little of the extra cost in labor has been passed on to consumers or the cities with whom they contract. The studies suggest that companies are absorbing the higher wages or finding ways to offset them (Uchitelle, 1999).

Higher wages may actually help firms reduce turnover and fill vacancies, according to some economists, and can also lead to greater worker productivity by improving morale and overall job satisfaction. These benefits generate efficiency gains that could allow firms to absorb the increase in labor costs (Card and Krueger, 1999).

Some studies have examined the potential inflationary aspects of minimum wage increases. An Oregon Center for Public Policy study of the impact of the 1997 and 1998 minimum wage increases on the Oregon restaurant industry found that inflation of restaurant meal prices matched general price increases in the rest of the economy and was less than general food and beverage price inflation. In another study, economists found that New Jersey?s 1992 minimum wage increase led to modestly increased prices of restaurant meals, but there was no evidence that prices rose faster among retail stores that had the greatest proportion of minimum wage workers (Card and Krueger, 1999).

The Baltimore living wage law increased the aggregate cost to the city by 1.2%, less than the cost of inflation. The inflation-adjusted cost to Baltimore of the 26 living wage contracts studied actually declined slightly despite the wage hikes, according to a 1999 study by the Economic Policy Institute. These findings are consistent with those of the Preamble Center study, which found a decline of 2.4% in inflation-adjusted contract prices after the first year of the Baltimore living wage ordinance. The Preamble Center study suggested that the decline in overall costs might be attributed to efficiency gains at higher wages, and to the competitive pressures of the bidding market, which discouraged contractors from inflating their prices.

But, I wouldn't expect someone that actually linked to CNSNews.com to try and think for themselves.

Funny that is not the same link you posted before that you claimed debunked the whole inflation increases with minimum wage.

You joke me about using an article that I found on the drudge report that linked to CNSNews.com and yet the article you just posted is so pulling at straws it isn?t even funny. But hey its on the internet and it fits your needs so it must be true.

No one that has half a brain would claim raising the minimum wage would have no effect on inflation. I don?t need an article to tell me otherwise its common mathematical sense.

 

[conjur]

See my edited post above.

Also, if you'd bothered to click the link I originally posted and looked thru the many links at that page you'd find plenty of information that raising the minimum wage has no deleterious effect on the economy.

But, continue with your baseless dismissals. Very typical of the Limbaught mindset.


BTW, CNSNews is run by Brent Bozell. Here's a bit about that wonderful human being:

http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/lbrentbozell
http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Brent_Bozell

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The whole notion that unions are fueling outsourcing is absurd. Chinese and Indian workers get by on such low wages and benefits that even American minimum wage no benefits workers can't compete. Even well-educated professionals can't compete against their Indian counterparts in exportable jobs. Chinese consumer goods, for example, are often ridiculously cheap- so much so that American energy costs alone preclude competition against them...

The whole phenomenon is much more closely tied to the exchange rate, and to the extreme measures used to support the false high valuation of the dollar. So long as the Bush Admin and Repub congress are willing to finance the exportation of American jobs with tax cuts for the wealthy and tax breaks to outsourcers, the trend will continue. You can't open a new factory in China for free- it takes capital. And so long as they're willing to create huge federal deficits to soak up overseas dollars, the false high valuation of the dollar will continue to provide the incentive to outsource...

Not to mention that very low tax rates on huge incomes actively encourage looting and greed. With a properly progressive tax structure, the financial elite is faced with a choice- they can pay employees more, invest more in their companies, or pay more in taxes, because they can't keep it all. Under the current tax system, yes, they can virtually keep it all, paying only the 15% capital gains rate on huge incomes...

Yeh, sure, the value of the dollar will self-correct, eventually, but not in a gradual way. Current efforts to stretch things to the breaking point will accomplish exactly that...

I've been arguing the very points you make above to my coworkers for months. I agree 100% with your analysis.

$3.00 per day = middle class in India yet not even one hours worth of minimum wage in the US. Hard to compete with unfair wages....not to mention the failure of many of the countries (such as China) to drop tariffis on US made products when the US doesn't have the same tariffs (or none at all) on products from those countries.

 

[HBalzer]

Originally posted by: conjur
See my edited post above.

Also, if you'd bothered to click the link I originally posted and looked thru the many links at that page you'd find plenty of information that raising the minimum wage has no deleterious effect on the economy.

But, continue with your baseless dismissals. Very typical of the Limbaught mindset.


BTW, CNSNews is run by Brent Bozell. Here's a bit about that wonderful human being:

http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/lbrentbozell
http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Brent_Bozell

Conjur you are a naive hypocritical man.

If you believe for one moment that raising the minimum wage will not increase inflation you have a lot to learn. Companies are out for their bottom line. If they have to spend millions of dollars more a year on overhead they are going to raise their costs to keep their bottom line. How is that not simple for you to understand? Forget what you read there are articles on both sides so you?ll have to think on your own.

?But, continue with your baseless dismissals. Very typical of the Limbaught mindset.?

This line alone proves you are an idiot and a waste of my time. I have presented rational thought to you not from some far off crazy article but from common sense and all you can do is say ?But, continue with your baseless dismissals? Your only retort is your little Limbaught thing. I have better things to do than sit around listening to talk radio and much better things to do than argue with someone who can only use childish antics like ?I now you are but what am I .?

 

[conjur]

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!

You post an article from CNSNews and claim you presented rational thought?


BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!


"forget what you read". I'll take that as your acquiescence on this topic.

But, fwiw, to repeat:

There is no evidence inflation is adversely affected by a rise in the minimum wage.

There are MANY factors that influence CPI and PPI. Wages are but one of those factors and there is certainly no direct correlation between minimum wage increases and inflation rising.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: HBalzer
In a speech to the Communications Workers of America on Tuesday, Pelosi mentioned Democrats' opposition to outsourcing. She said Democrats will end tax subsidies for companies that send jobs overseas.

Translation: "We, the Democrats, don't intend to do anything about foreign outsourcing."



Of course, I'm sure the Democrats didn't mention anything about other forms of global labor wage arbitrage, such as work visas (H-1B, L-1, etc.), mass immigration, and illegal immigration.

The solution is not merely to get rid of the subsidies, but also to pull out of the trade agreements and to put up tariffs. The solution is to have capitalism locally while putting up barriers to protect us from the mass poverty created by socialism and overpopulation in the third world.

How did we get to this state where both political parties are treasonous and want to impoverish the nation's middle class? And some people think the Democrats are better than the Republicans on these issues. With friends like these...

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Currently, Americans require a higher wage than the rest of the world simply because the standard of living here in America is that much higher than the rest of the world. I don't think you can blame companies for maximising their profit by getting the same productivity for a fraction of the cost overseas than what you'd get here in America.

Outsourcing is simply an adjustment of the American job market to the global one. This means that, yes, to get those higher wages you are going to have to earn them. Workers also need to adjust to the global job market in order to keep their wages, and convince the company that they are worth it. Unions help those workers keep their jobs (they hold companies morally accountable to their workers, gasp!), but there is only so much Unions are able to do. You gotta keep up your education for your whole life, or you're going to be left behind.

It's also an adjustment of the American standard of living. Even knowledge-based jobs are being outsourced, not merely factory jobs. Just about anything that isn't nailed down. Engineering work, science research, R&D, computer programming, financial analysis, architecture, animated cartoon drawing, legal work, interpretting the results of radiology tests, etc.

It's basically a merger of our economy with the billions of impoverished people in the third world, and the results will be predictable and unsurprising. Simple economic concepts (like supply of labor and demand for labor) dictate that the end result of a dramatic increase in the supply of labor (ie, 2.4 billion people) relative to a relatively static amount of demand for labor will decrease the price point (wages, standard of living). The result--the American middle class will be reduced to a third world standard of living.

It won't matter if you have five Ph.D.'s. (Heck, people with Ph.D.'s in science are working at 65 hours/week $30,000/year gypsy scientist positions called postdoctorates, often with no benefits.)

BTW--regarding education--what we are seeing today is an Education Arms Race. Everyone wants to go to college! In the past you could earn a secure middle class income with a bachelor's degree. Now everyone's getting masters degrees and professional degrees, etc. Sadly, education does not create jobs (except for people in the education fields). If the economy only offers knowledge-based jobs for 20% of the populace and 80% of the populace obtain bachelor's degrees in useful fields, it means that 60% of the populace will be overeducated and underemployed. In the meantime, the wages for the knowledge-based jobs will decrease because of the huge supply of people willing to work them.

 

[sumyungai]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: sumyungai

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: sumyungai
Dems want to raise the minimum wage, but wouldn't that cause inflation? If the minimum wage worker makes a higher minimum wage and prices rise, what does that solve?

That's a wholly debunked piece of propaganda.


Happy reading:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwage

Ok, now think for a second. Lets put things into the extremes to see things easier. If I were to make the minimum wage at a million dollars an hour. Everyone has atleast a million dollars. Everyone can afford BMW M3. This creates higher demand on that product. Wouldn't a company raise the price of said product to offset demand until it levels off?

Stop with the bullsh*t logical fallacies and READ THE DAMN ARTICLES at the link above.

Don't post until tomorrow after you've READ THEM THOROUGHLY.

Spreading your Limbaught ignorance is doing you no good.

Reread my post. Where in that post have anything to do with Rush, Kerry, or any politics? I posted a simple economics 101 situation that has nothing to do with politics. And yet, you seem to amaze me how you can manipulate things in your head into partisan politics. *I bow to you*

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: sumyungai

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: sumyungai

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: sumyungai
Dems want to raise the minimum wage, but wouldn't that cause inflation? If the minimum wage worker makes a higher minimum wage and prices rise, what does that solve?

That's a wholly debunked piece of propaganda.


Happy reading:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwage

Ok, now think for a second. Lets put things into the extremes to see things easier. If I were to make the minimum wage at a million dollars an hour. Everyone has atleast a million dollars. Everyone can afford BMW M3. This creates higher demand on that product. Wouldn't a company raise the price of said product to offset demand until it levels off?

Stop with the bullsh*t logical fallacies and READ THE DAMN ARTICLES at the link above.

Don't post until tomorrow after you've READ THEM THOROUGHLY.

Spreading your Limbaught ignorance is doing you no good.

Reread my post. Where in that post have anything to do with Rush, Kerry, or any politics? I posted a simple economics 101 situation that has nothing to do with politics. And yet, you seem to amaze me how you can manipulate things in your head into partisan politics. *I bow to you*

READ.


THE.


ARTICLES.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: sumyungai
Dems want to raise the minimum wage, but wouldn't that cause inflation? If the minimum wage worker makes a higher minimum wage and prices rise, what does that solve?

No. The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Your money is a representation of debt, not something substantive.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Unions aren't the reason companies are outsourcing to other countries. The problem is that the US economy can't compete with SouthEast Asia because they have such a large number of untapped natural resources and extremely cheap labor that they can manufacture a lot cheaper than the US. Becuase of this and a little help from the Chinese governement starting to push their economy past ours, we've had to sit back and switch all of our jobs from manufacturing to support. Now that India, Bangladesh, and other countries are starting to offer call center support we're losing many jobs there too. Basically, if we don't embrace the open world economy, our prices will be undercut by foreign competition in 5 years so there's no way to beat them....you have to join them.

The white collar jobs will continue to stay here as long as corporations are headquartered here. But that may change as China starts to compete more closely with the US. They are the number 2 producer of oil in the world and have more manufacturing capacity than anyone. We will basically be their bitch shortly if something drastic doesn't change and we start inventing new industries to dominate.

As far as unions go, they will continue to be a part of blue collar jobs until the end of time. There is simply less education required for these jobs and though they may be highly skilled jobs, corporations will see workers as replaceable and continue to cut costs where they can to provide a cheaper product and yield more profits. Enjoy.

 

[sumyungai]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: sumyungai
Dems want to raise the minimum wage, but wouldn't that cause inflation? If the minimum wage worker makes a higher minimum wage and prices rise, what does that solve?

No. The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Your money is a representation of debt, not something substantive.

No. You make it seem as though The Federal Reserve is the absolute cause of inflation, which is incorrect. It is one of many factors that has an effect on inflation, but not the ONLY one.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod

Originally posted by: HBalzer


If you are able to work and are on welfare you want to be on welfare. I'm sorry but you have to understand this is not a perfect society where everyone wants to work. Also, I find it hard to believe someone with a little motivation can?t get a job to pay them more than minimum wage.

Reality check:
It's very hard to find any job nowadays. Even myself, in which I'm proud to say has Computer Programming Experience, Computer Engineering Experience, Computer Networking experience with some college background, is having a hard time finding a job PERIOD! I can't even work at a simple job because I'm "over qualified". I can't work at a tech job because I don't have a bachleors or masters degree. I have equivlent experience, but with college tuition going up and up and jobs becoming more scarce to even pay for that tuition, it gets hard! What makes it funny is that I HAVE the experience!

Now, a person who doesn't have experience has even less of a chance than me! How can a person like you possibly know this? It's probably because you're already well-to-do and is looking from the outside, in.

QFT.

Some people are like that... they like to sermonize, as long as their position is secure.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
The white collar jobs will continue to stay here as long as corporations are headquartered here. But that may change as China starts to compete more closely with the US. They are the number 2 producer of oil in the world and have more manufacturing capacity than anyone. We will basically be their bitch shortly if something drastic doesn't change and we start inventing new industries to dominate.

They're already heading overseas. Areas that I've seen mentioned in news reports:

Financial analysis, legal work, architecture, intepretting radiology results, accounting, engineerng, science R&D, computers.

Why should we pay a financial analyst $100,000/year when a guy in India can do the job just as well for the bargain price of $15,000? Why should we pay a patent lawyer with an electrical engineering degree $130,000/year to draft patent applications when a patent draftsman in India can do the same for $20,000/year (assuming that this doesn't raise foreign filing license-type issues, etc.)? Why should the computer programmer get paid $70,000/year when a guy in India will happily do the same thing for $10,000/year?

Don't kid yourself. The white collar jobs aren't safe. Also, even if they are "safe" from direct outsourcing, then they'll still be affected as a result of unemployed and underemployed Americans offering to happily do the same work for half-price. Unemployment, underemployment, and the overall state of the American economy affects all of us. A larger supply of unemployed and underemployed Americans, including college-educated Americans with advanced degrees, will put downward pressure on wages.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: HBalzer
In a speech to the Communications Workers of America on Tuesday, Pelosi mentioned Democrats' opposition to outsourcing. She said Democrats will end tax subsidies for companies that send jobs overseas.

She also said Democrats support the "right of all Americans to organize," a sentiment that goes over well with labor unions such as the CWA.

To protect workers who want to join unions, Pelosi said Democrats are "fighting" to pass the Employee Free Choice Act, sponsored by Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.) in the House and Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) in the Senate. "The bill will guarantee that when a majority of workers in a company want a union, they will get a union," Pelosi said.

Democrats also support an increase in the minimum wage. Pelosi, describing the income of corporate American CEOs as "immoral," used Wal-Mart to make her point:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200603\POL20060315b.html

Both parties have lost their minds.

Companies are outsourcing because of unions driving up the cost of American workers so the plan is to have more unions. Yea, that well make American companies want to use American workers. Look what the unions have done to the American auto industry, it?s crazy.

It's all a matter of what kind of work envrioment you want to work in.. do you want to live llike chinese 6 or 7 day 12 hoour a day work weeks for $150 a month? Or like western nations? Good pay and mucho free time? I know which I'd prefer.

While economics is the driving factor of outsourcing - it's policy, which I consider bad for americans/germans etc lifestyle, allows it.

"Free trade" IMO is a euphamism for - anytime workers start to live decently we will shift means of production to another impovesrehed area, ruin thier enviroment, as we continue race to the bottom.

I like free trade with nations who are democratic - who provide some basic protections for labor - who respect the enviroment. Which china/indonesia/burma etc is none of. Many republicans refer to this as "fair trade"

Incidently "american auto workers" are paid less than both Japanese and Germans who turn out far superior product.. so don't blame the auto worker for ruining the industry. Has a lot more to do with mismanagement, poor design, poor planning which are all done at the executive level.

 

[Zebo]

No one that has half a brain would claim raising the minimum wage would have no effect on inflation. I don?t need an article to tell me otherwise its common mathematical sense.
-----------------------

And is it also common sense when you raise wages you give workers more market position to start thier own businesses and compete with thier former employers lowering prices negating any inflationary effects higher wages provided? I think so.. Millions have done it. Not to mention high wages are very good to companies.. don't believe me? Go start a steak house or auto dealership in Boliva and let me know how it goes.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: sumyungai

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: sumyungai
Dems want to raise the minimum wage, but wouldn't that cause inflation? If the minimum wage worker makes a higher minimum wage and prices rise, what does that solve?

No. The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Your money is a representation of debt, not something substantive.

No. You make it seem as though The Federal Reserve is the absolute cause of inflation, which is incorrect. It is one of many factors that has an effect on inflation, but not the ONLY one.

OK, it, its various owners, and everyone willing to not buy it back or declare it unconstitutional and get real money.

Fiat currency is, was, and will remain, a bad idea. There may be other factors, but the necessity to use bankers and an intrinsically worthless bit of money (that is IOU for other such money) keeps inflation at nice positive values.

Take your example, where prices rise due to higher minimum wage. If everyone can pay the higher prices, and there is less incentive to use means to keep the prices lower, no harm is done. There is little or not change, because there is more of the same amount in circulation for a given amount of people, but not more total in the system. Will it definitely work out that way? No.

The problem has little to do with minimum wage itself, but minimum and typical wages in relation to the highest wages. It has to do with many worrying about a buck an hour wage, and the owners of compnaies, shoing no responsibility to their workers or customers, making themselves millions from work they did not do (40x average worker to 500x average worker in 20 years, nothing found about the last 5 years). With those in control of the money system gaining the most benefit, and having great control over so many important parts of life, there is little for the lower end of the scale to do. The top few can easily weather continuous positive inflation, and keep the lower classes from having their money worth anything, even savings just means the money devalues slower than otherwise, rather than being stable or growing in value.

If the money were literally worth something physical, then control would begin to return to those who earn it, because money being worth less would mean that their savings would increase worth in that money.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: HBalzer
Companies are outsourcing because of unions driving up the cost of American workers so the plan is to have more unions. Yea, that well make American companies want to use American workers. Look what the unions have done to the American auto industry, it?s crazy.

Doesn't sound too extreme to me. I mean, WTF is the government giving tax subsidies to companies that ARE sending jobs overseas anyways?

I'm not entirely against outsourcing... i think it's just part of the global economy. If i was running a doughnut shop, and it was a choice between paying my workers $8/hr to make donuts by hand for the small shop... or buying donuts significantly cheaper from a company which specializes in it and can produce them cheaper because of the use of machines, i would buy the donuts from the other company.

 

[HombrePequeno]

How did this turn into an argument about minimum wage? I guess I'll add my two cents to it....

Minimum wage does increase inflation but not by much simply because not many people make minimum wage. The more you raise the minimum wage, the more people that are affected by it, which in turn raises inflation even more. Raising minimum wage also raises the natural unemployment. When you raise minimum wage, the costs to businesses increase and they deal with this by raising prices and slowing hiring. They probably aren't going to stop hiring altogether but it will be slower than it could be. Investment is also slowed because of the increase in costs.

You also have to consider the fact that a dollar of goods in NYC is not a dollar of goods in Wenatchee, WA. A regionalized (per district possibly) minimum wage would make more sense than a national one. One problem with that is that it increases complexity which would increase the overall costs to implement. Another thing is that most people on minimum wage are students that don't really need more money. This could be easily fixed by making the minimum wage for students lower than the one for adults.

On outsourcing...well I don't see any reason against it. I'm fine with giving a Chinese worker a job because that person in China is just as deserving of a job as an American that wants to get paid 3 times as much. The best way to help out poorer countries is by allowing them to have jobs, not by throwing a bunch of free/cheap food at them. Obviously we can't compete in the manufacturing sector with a country that's average wage is 1/5 of ours. We need to chalk manufacturing up as a loss simply because it's not going to be good for us in the long-run to try to keep it afloat by putting up a bunch of barriers to protect it. There will always be a market for actual American made products which means there will always be some manufacturing that will be needed. However, we need to promote education so that we can compete in the skilled labor market. We need to start pushing for people to get science degrees instead of things like Communications and Sociology.

 

[Jhhnn]

From Hombre Pequeno-

"However, we need to promote education so that we can compete in the skilled labor market. We need to start pushing for people to get science degrees instead of things like Communications and Sociology."

And just what would that do for the 70% of the population that will never have degrees? And how will it stop outsourcing of the science related jobs to equally qualified people in India, for example? You know, people with the same degrees who'll work for 1/4 the money?

Education only counts within a given job market. It won't help when the wage disparity between equally educated people is huge, due to the currency exchange rate....

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Hombre Pequeno-

"However, we need to promote education so that we can compete in the skilled labor market. We need to start pushing for people to get science degrees instead of things like Communications and Sociology."

And just what would that do for the 70% of the population that will never have degrees? And how will it stop outsourcing of the science related jobs to equally qualified people in India, for example? You know, people with the same degrees who'll work for 1/4 the money?

Education only counts within a given job market. It won't help when the wage disparity between equally educated people is huge, due to the currency exchange rate....

Don't confuse the pequeno people.

 

[Zebo]

Hombre is an idiot. Any nation w/o a robust industail sector is third world. More simply put, you don't make anything people want you're not gonna make any money.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Hombre Pequeno-

"However, we need to promote education so that we can compete in the skilled labor market. We need to start pushing for people to get science degrees instead of things like Communications and Sociology."

And just what would that do for the 70% of the population that will never have degrees? And how will it stop outsourcing of the science related jobs to equally qualified people in India, for example? You know, people with the same degrees who'll work for 1/4 the money?

Education only counts within a given job market. It won't help when the wage disparity between equally educated people is huge, due to the currency exchange rate....

The fact is that there is huge demand for technical jobs now and Americans obviously aren't filling the void. There are tons of immigrants getting degrees in the fields of engineering and science related fields and these could be filled by Americans if we promoted them a little better. We have better schools (tertiary at least) and because of them the people that graduate from those schools are better qualified than the ones in China or India. Even if this doesn't help, eventually the average incomes of these coutries will raise to where it isn't as profitable to move the jobs overseas.

Zebo: Thanks for the mature response. Anyway, our economy is what, 85% service oriented jobs? Our economy has been moving away from manufacturing since the 1970s and it will continue to do so. Our economy seems to be doing fine right now and has been growing for the past 30 years so I see no reason to worry about further allowing our manufacturing sector to shrink.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Hombre is an idiot. Any nation w/o a robust industail sector is third world. More simply put, you don't make anything people want you're not gonna make any money.

What? What about all of those service jobs that are supposed to be so grand?

(/sarcasm)