Dems introduce HR Bill 5717 severely attacking 2nd Amendment rights

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Yes, an armed citizenry was so dumb of an idea that it only facilitated the very existence of our country.
One of the arguments that had been made against gun control was that an armed citizenry was the final bulwark against tyranny. My response had been that untrained, lightly-armed non-soldiers couldn’t prevail against a modern army. I had concluded that the qualitative difference in firepower was such that all of the previous rules of guerilla war no longer applied. Both Vietnam and Afghanistan demonstrated that wasn’t true. Repelling an armed invasion is not something that American citizens are likely to face, but the possibility of a despotic government coming to power is not wholly unthinkable. One of the sequellae of Vietnam was the rise of the Khmer Rouge and slaughter of perhaps a million Cambodian citizens. Those citizens, like the Jews in Germany or the Armenians in Turkey, were unarmed and thus utterly and completely defenseless against police and paramilitary. An armed minority was able to kill and terrorize unarmed victims with total impunity. – Paul Hager

Reality
It is worth noting at the outset that this fear of tyranny suddenly arising belies a fundamental misreading of how authoritarian regimes actually come to power. Namely, it assumes a false dichotomy between “the people” on one side and “the government” on the other. Government is not some foreign entity imposed on the people, which would only arise from a foreign country conquering the United States (not going to happen). Rather democratic government is derived from the people. A tyrannical government could only arise in the US with a majority of the population supporting it due to some economic or military crisis: in reaction, say, to a heavily armed minority attempting to enforce its will on the rest of the country. Government does not just “suddenly” become tyrannical. The debate should just end here. However, given that this a blog dedicated to thoroughly debunking myths, I will delve deeper.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The founding fathers were wrong.

Blasphemy, I know. Yet the idea that Militias are in anyway necessary or good for a free State has no historical justification, especially in the modern era. Militias (especially unregulated ones) are overwhelmingly detrimental to the existence of a free society, and at best are impotent in its defense. A historical analysis reveals that Militias are typically the gateway to tyranny, not the safeguard against it. A heavily armed population has little to no bearing on preventing tyranny.

Pro-gun arguments typically follow at least one of four paths:

  1. Our own Revolutionary War shows militias are effective at protecting liberty.
  2. Militias promote liberty.
  3. Armed populations deter tyrants while unarmed populations are defenseless.
  4. Disarming a population is the gateway to genocide.
All of these arguments are false. Let’s first look at our own Revolutionary War.

The idea that militias are the bulwark against tyranny typically begins in a faulty reading of American History. The Revolutionary War was not won by Militias, but rather the Continental Army with considerable help from the French. While it is probably an exaggeration to suggest that the Militia was completely worthless during the War, that is far closer to reality than the myth promulgated by some pro-gun advocates. And the Militias that did significantly contribute to the cause were organized by the states and represented a well-disciplined, cohesive fighting force that mirrored the Continental Army, not the minutemen of lore.

Moving to the modern era, Militias have a terrible history of creating tyranny, even when fighting against foreign powers. Militias that have been successful in warding off foreign aggression overwhelmingly opposed democratic rule. A few examples are Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba, Somalia, Iraq, and southern Lebanon; in none of these countries did the militias promote a free State. Add to this list countries where militias have ripped apart society in tribal states or civil war (such as Pakistan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mali, Colombia, and the Palestinian Territories) and we can form an even clearer picture of militias. For a more immediate example, one only has to look at the bewildering array of militias (more than “1,000” according to Robin Wright) currently fighting in Syria to see how little they promote democratic values and how ineffective they tend to be on the battlefield. While there may be an example of victorious militias replacing tyranny with freedom since the industrial age hiding somewhere in an obscure footnote of history, the rule that militias are detrimental to preserving freedom holds.

An astute reader will note that all of the examples I am providing are from poor countries or societies that never had a well-established democratic tradition. And this is true. While it is typically wise to refrain from comparing countries in different socio-economic strata, there simply aren’t any wealthy, free societies that use militias for self-defense. Every democratic country, with the exception of Costa Rica, has a standing army to defend it, not militias.

For examples closer to home, we can easily see that the Klu Klux Klan, Neo-Nazi elements, and the Black Panthers (all of which are or were unregulated militias) have done little to promote a free society. Perhaps the best example in America of the influence militias have on society is “Bloody Kansas” during the 1850s. Pro-Northern and Southern settlers, armed to the teeth, streamed into Kansas in order to sway whether the state became free or slave. The constant skirmishes killed 56 settlers, out of a total population of 8,000. It is safe to conclude that the sudden explosion in the number of armed men did not contribute to a democratic process.

However, gun advocates claim, armed populations never have the chance to stop tyranny as they are disarmed first. There are many cases though where this is demonstrably untrue. Yemen is currently the second most heavily armed country in the world (per capita), and it is currently a battlefield between a Western dictatorship and various Jihadist organizations who have no love for a free State. Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries are heavily armed, with what can only be described as tyrannical governments. Iraq before the 2003 US invasion is perhaps the best example. Saddam Hussein falls under any definition of a tyrannical dictator, yet the Iraqi people were very heavily armed with a gun culture mirroring that of the US. How armed a population is appears to have no empirical bearing on how free that society is.

Along with reversing the likely causality, the idea that gun control leads to genocide is a pure example of post hoc ergo propter hoc (“after this, therefore because of this”). Oftentimes, the argument gun advocates advance is as simplistic as: name a dictator, claim he supported gun control. The entire process of determining which dictator did what quickly devolves into an exercise of historical whack-a-mole. As there are dozens of dictators various gun advocates claim used gun control to disarm and then murder people, I will only focus on a few of the main tyrants. Regimes that haven’t engaged in genocidal acts (such as Cuba and Venezuela) will be excluded. Yes these countries have stiff gun control, but so does nearly every modernized country in the world, including England, Australia, Canada, France, Switzerland, Israel, etc. While Nazi Germany is not one of the examples provided by the widely circulated “A Little Gun History,” it is often the first alleged case of gun control leading to tyranny and genocide that gun advocates advance.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
The worthless gun grabbing bitch brigades current argument is that owning a gun makes you less safe. What they always fail to mention is how much less safe. We know that if the odds increased more than even a fraction of a percent they'd be running their sucks about it non-stop.

There are guns in 100 million households in this country. There are 35k gun deaths. The math is simple.

You never served in the military.
 

IJTSSG

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2014
1,126
282
136
That does not take away from the fact that he served!! Nice try! Only a scum bag would try to claim that if you have not fought that you did not actually serve!!
I bet you were one of those who spit on our service members when they arrived back from serving in Vietnam......figures!@!
Where did I claim that he did not actually serve? Please point that out specifically. My comment was that there's a difference between fought and served. I stand by it. In my 20+ years on active duty and the time since I have never heard anyone claim that they had "fought" for this country that hadn't actually, you know, fought. Your, Jstorms and every other little white knights opinion in this echo chamber is completely irrelevant.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Where did I claim that he did not actually serve? Please point that out specifically. My comment was that there's a difference between fought and served. I stand by it. In my 20+ years on active duty and the time since I have never heard anyone claim that they had "fought" for this country that hadn't actually, you know, fought. Your, Jstorms and every other little white knights opinion in this echo chamber is completely irrelevant.
I am sorry there but there really is no difference! Why? Because without logistical support nobody would have been able to fight! It takes a team to accomplish a goal!1 In order to fight somebody has to procur ammunition and other item such as rations and clothing , etc....
Only somebody trying to demean somebody who served would try to make that differentiation!

Usually people who ask such a question are trying timply something or they are trying to say something without say it......so thats ok! You can pretend all you want that was not your intent! We know better!!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,723
54,722
136
I am sorry there but there really is no difference! Why? Because without logistical support nobody would have been able to fight! It takes a team to accomplish a goal!1 In order to fight somebody has to procur ammunition and other item such as rations and clothing , etc....
Only somebody trying to demean somebody who served would try to make that differentiation!

Usually people who ask such a question are trying timply something or they are trying to say something without say it......so thats ok! You can pretend all you want that was not your intent! We know better!!

Who gives a shit anyway, he’s just trying to distract from the fact that they have no real argument here.

Gun ownership exists primarily as a vehicle where people can fulfill a fantasy of self defense. It fails though at, you know, actually providing defense.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Where did I claim that he did not actually serve? Please point that out specifically. My comment was that there's a difference between fought and served. I stand by it. In my 20+ years on active duty and the time since I have never heard anyone claim that they had "fought" for this country that hadn't actually, you know, fought. Your, Jstorms and every other little white knights opinion in this echo chamber is completely irrelevant.


Lol 20 years. Liar.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Where did I claim that he did not actually serve? Please point that out specifically. My comment was that there's a difference between fought and served. I stand by it. In my 20+ years on active duty and the time since I have never heard anyone claim that they had "fought" for this country that hadn't actually, you know, fought. Your, Jstorms and every other little white knights opinion in this echo chamber is completely irrelevant.
You must be full of yourself! I for one don`t believe that you were ever a member of the armed forces!
Only people who were never in the armed forces would dare say that somebody who served and was in an administrative position was not as important as somebody who was in combat! My question is define combat? Just because you were assigned to a combat unit does not mean you actually fought the enemy or even saw the enemy!
There is nothing special about somebody who fought as opposed to somebody why was in a support unit! Without that support unit acquiring things like ammo and rations and other items it makes it very difficult to fight with no weapons! But you probably would not know that if you were never in the military!
You do relize how stoopid your opinion sounds....
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,569
6,711
126
I knew that you've posted that you were on active duty, I don't remember you ever saying that you "fought" while on active duty. There's a pretty significant difference between the two. People who fought earn things like Combat Action Ribbons, Combat Infantry Badges, etc. People that don't have those things and claim to have "fought" are . . . . well we know what they are don't we.
Yes I do. We are all the same, all damaged in childhood to need to cling to some external thing in order to stand looking at ourselves, as if having done this or that, being a member of this or that makes us rise to the top like cream, when the one thing that makes us all like Gods, our inborn capacity for conscious awareness and empathic love for the universe and all living things lies deeply buried beneath mountains of pain. Compared to that, my dear friend, is such a very very small thing. Good news though. Having served doesn't make you less than other people any more than it makes you better. It just has nothing real to do with anything and I am sorry if you don't know that. And trust me on this, no amount of rage will change that. I know all about how I resisted the realization that I am a nobody and the loss of all I could lose.
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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The fact that he thinks what he wrote there is good logic is pretty frightening.

The first flaw that should have stood out to him is that he’s counting guns, not people, and people who own guns often own lots of them. Under his logic if every gun owner owned 100 guns and 100% of gun owners shot someone to death then 99% of guns would never be used to kill anyone.

Does anyone think that makes even the slightest bit of sense?
"A bit more than 99.92% of civilian owned guns didn't hurt anyone in 2013." WTF is inaccurate about that statement?

How's this math for you:

3 in 10 American adults admit to owning a gun. I'm guessing that number is higher in reality because many gun owners keep mum about it, but lets use that number. There are roughly 209 million adults in the U.S. That means roughly 62.7 million Americans own one or more firearms. So America has roughly 62.7 million gun owners.

If we look at 2018 crime statistics for deaths by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) + injuries by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) we get 44,022. If we add in suicides we get 68,454 shootings total. Assuming each shooting event was done by a separate gun owners we had 68,454 shooters misused their guns in 2018.

That equates to a bit less than .11% of all gun owners doing something dumb or illegal with their guns in 2018. Again, that number is giving anti-gunners the benefit of the doubt by including perfectly legal defensive uses of a gun, and suicide, and plain old accidents along with murders and non-fatal shootings. And it assumes every incident was by a unique gun owner. And this is including ALL guns. The number would be much lower if I excluded legit, legal defensive uses of a gun and only counted shootings with a long gun. Not to mention how minuscule it would be if I only included shootings with an AR-15.

So, in 2018, around 99.89% of gun owners did not commit a crime, murder, suicide or even have an accident with their gun. Tell me again how most gun owners are a problem and need to be disarmed?
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
"A bit more than 99.92% of civilian owned guns didn't hurt anyone in 2013." WTF is inaccurate about that statement?

How's this math for you:

3 in 10 American adults admit to owning a gun. I'm guessing that number is higher in reality because many gun owners keep mum about it, but lets use that number. There are roughly 209 million adults in the U.S. That means roughly 62.7 million Americans own one or more firearms. So America has roughly 62.7 million gun owners.

If we look at 2018 crime statistics for deaths by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) + injuries by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) we get 44,022. If we add in suicides we get 68,454 shootings total. Assuming each shooting event was done by a separate gun owners we had 68,454 shooters misused their guns in 2018.

That equates to a bit less than .11% of all gun owners doing something dumb or illegal with their guns in 2018. Again, that number is giving anti-gunners the benefit of the doubt by including perfectly legal defensive uses of a gun, and suicide, and plain old accidents along with murders and non-fatal shootings. And it assumes every incident was by a unique gun owner. And this is including ALL guns. The number would be much lower if I excluded legit, legal defensive uses of a gun and only counted shootings with a long gun. Not to mention how minuscule it would be if I only included shootings with an AR-15.

So, in 2018, around 99.89% of gun owners did not commit a crime, murder, suicide or even have an accident with their gun. Tell me again how most gun owners are a problem and need to be disarmed?
so??
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,723
54,722
136
"A bit more than 99.92% of civilian owned guns didn't hurt anyone in 2013." WTF is inaccurate about that statement?

How's this math for you:

3 in 10 American adults admit to owning a gun. I'm guessing that number is higher in reality because many gun owners keep mum about it, but lets use that number. There are roughly 209 million adults in the U.S. That means roughly 62.7 million Americans own one or more firearms. So America has roughly 62.7 million gun owners.

If we look at 2018 crime statistics for deaths by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) + injuries by firearms (willful, accidental, malicious) we get 44,022. If we add in suicides we get 68,454 shootings total. Assuming each shooting event was done by a separate gun owners we had 68,454 shooters misused their guns in 2018.

That equates to a bit less than .11% of all gun owners doing something dumb or illegal with their guns in 2018. Again, that number is giving anti-gunners the benefit of the doubt by including perfectly legal defensive uses of a gun, and suicide, and plain old accidents along with murders and non-fatal shootings. And it assumes every incident was by a unique gun owner. And this is including ALL guns. The number would be much lower if I excluded legit, legal defensive uses of a gun and only counted shootings with a long gun. Not to mention how minuscule it would be if I only included shootings with an AR-15.

So, in 2018, around 99.89% of gun owners did not commit a crime, murder, suicide or even have an accident with their gun. Tell me again how most gun owners are a problem and need to be disarmed?
Uhmmmm, gun violence is not remotely close to the only illegal thing you can do with a gun.

As for gun owners being a ‘problem’ I’ve already shown you repeatedly how when people employ actual inferential statistics instead of the clumsy attempt at descriptive stats you’re doing here it shows guns make you more likely to be the victim of homicide and suicide. So in short, owning guns fails at the thing most people own them for.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,087
6,344
136
Uhmmmm, gun violence is not remotely close to the only illegal thing you can do with a gun.

As for gun owners being a ‘problem’ I’ve already shown you repeatedly how when people employ actual inferential statistics instead of the clumsy attempt at descriptive stats you’re doing here it shows guns make you more likely to be the victim of homicide and suicide. So in short, owning guns fails at the thing most people own them for.
Firearms are the tool, not the cause.
They should be restricted through two tests, a minimum IQ and never having committed an act of violence against another. That will never happen, and we'll continue to dance around the issue with foolish rules that have absolutely no effect on the real problem, stupid violent people with weapons.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,723
54,722
136
Firearms are the tool, not the cause.
They should be restricted through two tests, a minimum IQ and never having committed an act of violence against another. That will never happen, and we'll continue to dance around the issue with foolish rules that have absolutely no effect on the real problem, stupid violent people with weapons.

Yes, if only there were something we could do.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Firearms are the tool, not the cause.
They should be restricted through two tests, a minimum IQ and never having committed an act of violence against another. That will never happen, and we'll continue to dance around the issue with foolish rules that have absolutely no effect on the real problem, stupid violent people with weapons.

minimum iq lol. Like most americans who want a gun have average or below iq.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
In your analogy, it’s not a matter of allowing people to have a fire extinguisher, it’s a matter of people with the guns being the arsonist.

Our country was designed to be a representative democracy, the day the government becomes tyrannical is preceded by the people with the guns who take it over.

You are the cause, not the remedy. You are (in the metaphorical sense) what real patriots give their blood for in order to defend and keep liberty and democracy alive.

That’s the part you keep failing to understand. You are the British, you are the confederate, you are the tyranny. Your refusal to allow the US and Americans as a whole to regulate firearms and protect itself and to promote the general welfare of this country is what stands in the way of democracy.

So your position is that most gun owners are criminals?
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
That's an inherently flawed and invalid argument.

It assumes that the realities of gun ownership, technology and society are set in stone, and that the only acceptable stance on gun rights is an absolutist one.

Do you believe people should have the right to own machine guns with no restrictions? No? Then you have to throw out that argument. And it's trite to say, but gun rights in the US were established at a time when single-shot rifles were the best you could get and the main concern was fielding resistance to foreign invasions. If you told people amending the Constitution that rifles nearly 250 years later could kill dozens of people, and that guns were involved in tens of thousands of murders and suicides per year, would they have been absolutist in defending it? I wouldn't count on it.

Remember, while the 2nd Amendment did grant individual rights, it did so with a specific purpose; it was not meant to be a catch-all for people who feel like they 'need' an AR-15 to shoot deer (but really just want a toy) or don't like waiting a day or two for a background check. And you know full well that an absolutist approach would lead to some pretty horrific outcomes. Like it or not, "compromise" is necessary in a world where observable evidence matters.

A single-shot was not the best you could get. Also some people owned cannons, imagine that. That cartoon only mentions federal laws not even state laws. The point is if any other constitutional right continued to get chipped away at you would be fed up too especially when things that are being proposed are NOT going to fix the problem.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
IQ is always normalized to 100.
But the human race as a whole gets slightly smarter each year that passes.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,723
54,722
136
Latest news, gun shops are essential businesses so they can remain open during this virus epidemic - https://time.com/5812778/trump-administration-gun-shops-essential-coronavirus/

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Too bad for gun grabbers. Please whine and cry more. Shred more crocodile tears. LOL.

Ironically, that quote by Franklin is one where he is arguing for the legislature to have the power to tax people to pay state militias for collective defense.


While it’s not really about the gun debate if you had to apply it it’s probably closer to the meaning of the second amendment those ‘gun grabbers’ apply.

Lol.
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Ironically, that quote by Franklin is one where he is arguing for the legislature to have the power to tax people to pay state militias for collective defense.


While it’s not really about the gun debate if you had to apply it it’s probably closer to the meaning of the second amendment those ‘gun grabbers’ apply.

Lol.

My point still stands. Gun shops are essential business and can remain open during this pandemic time. So now the gun grabbers can't try to shut them down anymore just because being butt hurt about guns.

Note how guns are selling like hot cakes, even in blue states such as CA, not just in "deplorables" red states.

LOL indeed.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
My point still stands. Gun shops are essential business and can remain open during this pandemic time. So now the gun grabbers can't try to shut them down anymore just because being butt hurt about guns.

Note how guns are selling like hot cakes, even in blue states such as CA, not just in "deplorables" red states.

LOL indeed.
depends....
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
depends....

That's why the new clarification now. So states and municipals can't force gun shops to shut down. NRA is threatening to sue too. From my link -

"The vast majority of states are allowing gun shops to remain open. However, some states that have been the hardest hit by the coronavirus have ruled that gun shops are not essential and should close. In the absence of a mandate from federal authorities, gun groups have been filing lawsuits challenging state and local authorities who are ordering gun shops and ranges to close.