Dems intend to bypass GOP on health compromise

[boomerang]

"If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply"

Since when has filling a false income tax return not been subjected to penalties?

The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

Individual mandate tax. It's not coming out of your paycheck. You'll settle up when you file your income tax return. If you don't pay the tax you're subject to these penalties.

There are consequences for filing a false return, yes. This has nothing to do with that. If you do not obtain "acceptable health insurance coverage" and then do not pay the tax, you will be subject to civil and criminal penalties. It's as clear as can be.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You think it was watered down for the republicans sake?....Newsflash, it was watered down so hick dems and lieberman would vote for it.

No, I don't think it was watered down for the Republicans by any stretch of the imagination. Several of the left on this board have been blaming Republicans for it being watered down, which is clearly not the case. Your assessment above (which I have repeatedly pointed out to them as well) is the correct one. Re-read my post and you'll see I was questioning him on the logic of blaming Republicans for it being watered down.

 

[Red Dawn]

This is from the Associated Press



Now maybe the AP has a vested interest, I don't know, but here you go.

Failure to pay Federal Income tax always results in penalties but unless it involves fraud it almost never results in jail time. Sounds like you just confirmed that the threat of prison if you don't have Health Insurance made by the fear mongers here is just another one of their lies.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ok Red, the JCT letter is apparently an official document from Congress and I haven't found anything which says it's a fraud.

What part of it is incorrect, or is it all a fraud?

If you have another source which contradicts what the others claim I at least will look at it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Ok Red, the JCT letter is apparently an official document from Congress and I haven't found anything which says it's a fraud.

What part of it is incorrect, or is it all a fraud?

If you have another source which contradicts what the others claim I at least will look at it.

“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3

If you cannot pay because you haven't the money none of the above applies.

Look an argument against the penalties is valid but there's no need to add the bullshit fear mongering that if you cannot afford it and therefore cannot pay the penalty you'll go to jail. That just isn't the case.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Failure to pay Federal Income tax always results in penalties but unless it involves fraud it almost never results in jail time. Sounds like you just confirmed that the threat of prison if you don't have Health Insurance made by the fear mongers here is just another one of their lies.

I never sided with that opinion to begin with. That's why I posted

Everyone needs to buy health insurance, whether you can afford it or not. If you do not, you are taxed, whether you can afford it or not. If you don't pay the tax you might not be able to afford because of the insurance mandate, then the 250K/jail time kicks in.

That's the penalty which can be imposed for not paying taxes. I don't like the idea of forced coverage and I make no bones about it. Nevertheless, I knew the 250K wasn't for not having insurance and I NEVER said it was.

Yeah I'm a provider, but don't think I'm backing anyone here because of it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3

If you cannot pay because you haven't the money none of the above applies.

Look an argument against the penalties is valid but there's no need to add the bullshit fear mongering that if you cannot afford it and therefore cannot pay the penalty you'll go to jail. That just isn't the case.

Ok, you make 100k a year. You have a problem and suddenly your financial balance sheet goes south, and you cannot afford health insurance, or much of anything else.

Are you protected? Don't tell me that bad things don't happen.

All you need to do is show that in all cases if the cash flow dries up then there's no problem.

Do this, then the argument is moot regarding the penalty.

 

[woolfe9999]

There is a pretty thorough explanation of this issue here:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter...vative-group-says-youll-be-imprisoned-not-ha/

Essentially, the odds of going to jail over this, even if there is actual fraud, are pretty slim.

- wolf

 

[Acanthus]

“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3

If you cannot pay because you haven't the money none of the above applies.

Look an argument against the penalties is valid but there's no need to add the bullshit fear mongering that if you cannot afford it and therefore cannot pay the penalty you'll go to jail. That just isn't the case.

Not to mention the health care is subsidized for everyone under 4x the poverty line...

I saw someone ask about "how costs will be reduced".

1. Mandating coverage stops the revolving door emergency room loophole that drives up costs enormously for those with the ability to pay.

2. Giving basic care to the poor will enable them to get preventative care instead of emergency-room only coverage.

3. Covering all americans will dramatically reduce bankruptcies in the US.

4. Insurance companies will no longer be shielded from anti-monopoly laws. The SEC can prosecute them for price-fixing and muscling startups out of the market.

5. The bill is paid for and will not have a massive deficit a la medicare.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There is a pretty thorough explanation of this issue here:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter...vative-group-says-youll-be-imprisoned-not-ha/

Essentially, the odds of going to jail over this, even if there is actual fraud, are pretty slim.

- wolf

One version of the bill explicitly removed criminal penalties. The odds of someone being penalized are directly related to the agenda of those in power and you know that.

Put it back in, or the threat is very real.

 

[Red Dawn]

Ok, you make 100k a year. You have a problem and suddenly your financial balance sheet goes south, and you cannot afford health insurance, or much of anything else.

Are you protected? Don't tell me that bad things don't happen.

All you need to do is show that in all cases if the cash flow dries up then there's no problem.

Do this, then the argument is moot regarding the penalty.

Scratches head. Did you just agree with me?

As long as you don't willfully avoid paying the penalty (Fraud) you won't face any jail time or excessive fines.

Like I said, arguing against the penalty is a valid point, there's no need to tell people that if they can't afford Health Insurance and can't pay the penalty that they'll end up in jail. That's just BS Fear Mongering.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Scratches head. Did you just agree with me?

As long as you don't willfully avoid paying the penalty (Fraud) you won't face any jail time or excessive fines.

Like I said, arguing against the penalty is a valid point, there's no need to tell people that if they can't afford Health Insurance and can't pay the penalty that they'll end up in jail. That's just BS Fear Mongering.

I don't care to agree or disagree.

I want to know if people are going to be protected if they cannot afford the insurance. Not "if they are so many times above the poverty level"

If you get fucked in life, is the government then going to fuck you, yes or no? If you can't buy insurance because you don't have the cash, ANY penalty is excessive.

If they are protected I'm good with that.

Are they?

Edit: I know the argument about jail time is bogus. No one has shown that there won't be a punishment. Show me, and as I said I'm good with it.

 

[Red Dawn]

I don't care to agree or disagree.

I want to know if people are going to be protected if they cannot afford the insurance. Not "if they are so many times above the poverty level"

If you get fucked in life, is the government then going to fuck you, yes or no? If you can't buy insurance because you don't have the cash, ANY penalty is excessive.

If they are protected I'm good with that.

Are they?

Edit: I know the argument about jail time is bogus.

That's exactly what I was saying.

No one has shown that there won't be a punishment. Show me, and as I said I'm good with it.

Well they said there are exceptions in cases of Hardships. If you lose all your income you won't face any penalties.

BTW, if you don't get Health Insurance will the government provide you with it? If so that 2.5% of your total income penalty doesn't seem so excessive, we pay far more than that annually for just my wife and I.

 

[Carmen813]

This bill contains a fairly large amount of subsidies and expands Medicaid. Not to mention many states have options. If, somehow, a person lost everything there would be a lot more options available to them than there are now.

Frankly, I'm in favor of strict penalties. The fines need to have teeth or the mandate is pointless. If the mandate is pointless, companies will get screwed because of the elimination of pre-existing conditions and the ability to charge different rates for older people. It's essential to keep insurance costs under control. Ideally, there should have been a public option (that was run as a private entity would be) in order to maintain competition.

 

[Moonbeam]

They should take out all penalties so folk can game the system and buy it only when they get sick. That way we would provide for individual freedom to fuck your neighbor who pays more for health care because you only pay when needed.

Actually we need to just get rid of government altogether because we should all be free to do whatever we want.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That's exactly what I was saying.

Well they said there are exceptions in cases of Hardships. If you lose all your income you won't face any penalties.

BTW, if you don't get Health Insurance will the government provide you with it? If so that 2.5% of your total income penalty doesn't seem so excessive, we pay far more than that annually for just my wife and I.

If people who could have afforded insurance but because some unforeseen circumstance find it a hardship are not punished, my objection over this particular issue is no longer valid, and that is the end of it for me.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This bill contains a fairly large amount of subsidies and expands Medicaid. Not to mention many states have options. If, somehow, a person lost everything there would be a lot more options available to them than there are now.

Frankly, I'm in favor of strict penalties. The fines need to have teeth or the mandate is pointless. If the mandate is pointless, companies will get screwed because of the elimination of pre-existing conditions and the ability to charge different rates for older people. It's essential to keep insurance costs under control. Ideally, there should have been a public option (that was run as a private entity would be) in order to maintain competition.

Wait, they are going to expand the worst system in health care, Medicaid and you say it's essential that health insurance costs be controlled? NY is teetering on the edge of economic disaster in large part due to Medicaid, and you want to finish the job. Splendid.

 

[Moonbeam]

This bill contains a fairly large amount of subsidies and expands Medicaid. Not to mention many states have options. If, somehow, a person lost everything there would be a lot more options available to them than there are now.

Frankly, I'm in favor of strict penalties. The fines need to have teeth or the mandate is pointless. If the mandate is pointless, companies will get screwed because of the elimination of pre-existing conditions and the ability to charge different rates for older people. It's essential to keep insurance costs under control. Ideally, there should have been a public option (that was run as a private entity would be) in order to maintain competition.

If the American people can evolve sufficiently against the billions spent to keep them insane and the Republican party dies as it should as a party of death, the health care bill we soon get will become just like social security, something that if politicians talk about removing they will be thrown out of office, and maybe, in those future days with clearer thinking Americans, we will have a chance to tackle more and better ways to provide better universal health care. Meanwhile there are still millions of assholes who vote for death to America and fuck up anything progressives try to do.

We have many problems. Money destroys politics. Corporations have the money. The rich have the money. The poor don't vote, don't get any information that would motivate them. We have winner take all, no voice for any third party, demigods rule the airwaves keeping the ignorant in a rage so nothing progressive ever gets done, so many problems.

We have moved right for years and years and years and the pond us frogs live in has reached a temperature where the frogs are starting to notice they are dying in large numbers. A few will see the party of death as the cause.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wait, they are going to expand the worst system in health care, Medicaid and you say it's essential that health insurance costs be controlled? NY is teetering on the edge of economic disaster in large part due to Medicaid, and you want to finish the job. Splendid.

Why not. Economic disaster may be the only thing that can cause important change, no? Some folk have things very good. Some folk got nothing including health care. Which of the two groups cares if the system collapses? Which have the most to gain if it does? We will take care of everybody or the suicide bomber will bring us down. People don't like what looks to be unfair.

 

[palehorse]

Good, every time they compromised, it ended up being even more of a giveaway to insurance industry.

Let's get one thing straight: The Reps hand NO input on the current bills -- NONE -- so the Dems own it. It's theirs. ALL of it. The Dems will receive 100% of the blame OR 100% of the credit once the bill is passed and we see what kind of mess they've made.

Since we already know that the bill is one gigantic handout to the insurance and drug companies, who gets the blame for that? Oh yeah... only the Dems baby, only the Dems.

You cannot blame the Reps for ANY portion of the final bill.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If the American people can evolve sufficiently against the billions spent to keep them insane and the Republican party dies as it should as a party of death, the health care bill we soon get will become just like social security, something that if politicians talk about removing they will be thrown out of office, and maybe, in those future days with clearer thinking Americans, we will have a chance to tackle more and better ways to provide better universal health care. Meanwhile there are still millions of assholes who vote for death to America and fuck up anything progressives try to do.

We have many problems. Money destroys politics. Corporations have the money. The rich have the money. The poor don't vote, don't get any information that would motivate them. We have winner take all, no voice for any third party, demigods rule the airwaves keeping the ignorant in a rage so nothing progressive ever gets done, so many problems.

We have moved right for years and years and years and the pond us frogs live in has reached a temperature where the frogs are starting to notice they are dying in large numbers. A few will see the party of death as the cause.

The Progressives have killed my state all on their own, no help needed. Their object is power for the Greater Good, which they define all on their own. Any who see it otherwise are lesser beings which have to be guided by the Great and All Powerful OZ.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


Yes, politicians get bought and that's a huge problem. The remainder who aren't suffer from the infallibility of their egos, and when their grand plans collapse under their own sheer weight, then it's the fault of the Republicans.

There is a balance to almost everything, and I'm sorry but every day it seems clearer that the Progressives have become the Neocons.

Both are right, all must obey for the "good" of their correct agendas. Heaven help you if you get in their way. All Popes, and all infallible.

 

[palehorse]

I'd suggest that the waning public support has more to do with the ongoing FUD campaign by Republicans and the watering down of the whole idea.

Of course you'd suggest that... it helps you avoid the truth of the matter -- that being your own party's failures and inadequacies.

 

[palehorse]

You're the useless idiot, but I Jhhnn is one of our best posters.

On this legislation:

Oppoents MIGHT have a constitutional challenge that will stick.

Where is the constitutional power for the federal government to require citizens to buy insurance?

The government has pulled it off for auto insurance, linked to the 'privilige' to drive. It's never had this power uncoditionlly that I know of. This could mean the government pays.

ummm... that would be you and I picking up the bill, not some ever-powerful government full of magical government money that grows on government money trees. You and I... or, if you're poor, then just me. I'll be paying that bill.

That said, isn't taxpayer-funded healthcare for all your entire goal? I'd expect you to be happy if/when "the government" gets to pick up more of the tab... no?

 

[Carmen813]

Wait, they are going to expand the worst system in health care, Medicaid and you say it's essential that health insurance costs be controlled? NY is teetering on the edge of economic disaster in large part due to Medicaid, and you want to finish the job. Splendid.

I'm on Medicaid in NYS and my health care has been fantastic. You obviously have no idea what I was talking about, so why don't you come off the conservative hate wagon for 3 minutes and look into it?

NYS is teetering on financial disaster because our state elected officials are fucking idiots. And yet your position is to give state government more power...

 

[EagleKeeper]

If people who could have afforded insurance but because some unforeseen circumstance find it a hardship are not punished, my objection over this particular issue is no longer valid, and that is the end of it for me.

I believe that the intent was for those that could not afford the full price to get some subsidy/discount.

Issues with that is if one does not have the funds to handle the difference.
And the government LOVES to look at the complete financial income over a period of time when it is convenient for them. Make $100K and then drop to nothing for the past month. Tough luck - your overall income does not allow you to qualify for subsidies. In the reverse; you go from unemployment to full employment; health coverage does not kick in until the next month. Government sees you are employed - all help is out the window even though you may not get a paycheck for 2 weeks