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Democrat vs. Republican
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Red Dawn
Elite Member
<< The left is far worse about that than the religious right. >>
I disagree. The reason I disagree is because the Religous Right is more powerful than the Left. The left is a well known whacked entity, even by members of their own party. The Republicans are afraid to stand up against the Religious right because they know that without that Lunatic Fringes support they'd never stand a chance. Clinton turned his back on the Left time and time again the whole time he was in the White House. Bush is sucking up to the RR big time, in fact so much so that he is looking Buffoonish. Just this weekend he admonished Business leaders for not giving more to Religious Charities. Remember when Bush said that the Government was going to subsidize these Religious Charitable Groups along with Big Business? Well Bush has found himself at the dance with his date out on the floor with somebody else in regards to this. I'm sure his standing with the Conservative Corporate Leaders is suffering because of his Religious Right Suckage.
I have many Republican friends. My Mom is an active mucky muck in the Republican party. I love these people. They are decent, generous, and want the best for the country. They believe the things they do not because they are stupid, mentally ill, or evil. They believe what they do because it is what they see as being right. I, on the other hand, and many other of my friends, see something different. The question seems to me to be who has the best, most accurate vision. The problem is that each side sees what they see so they see their side as being right. So the question shifts somewhat to who has the deeper vision. Again this is an argument. It seems then that what is left is to argue the case and compare the info with what we know about ourselves. What do we know about our selves? Yes, what do we know about ourselves?
One thing I think I know about ourselves is that we are very insecure in our political faith. And one result is that instead of arguing the issues we assault the humanity of the other and ridicule his or her thinking. That's cool, but it doesn't do much to resolve the issues. It may also be that for some of us that is the intention (just to put down). If so than those who are serious need to recognize and anticipate a certain 'clown element', for lack of a better term, in all political threads, or for that matter any others involving the ways we identify. It will, of course, be tempting to respond to such people via counterattack, and that's cool too, but since the 'clown element', as I have perhaps inappropriately identified it, is dealing with their own emotional issues (i.e. a need to put down) rather than political issues you will quickly wind up in a flame war involving egos. 😀
Meanwhile there really are facinating political issues about how we manage our society and other ones about how we create a civil society. I believe that self understanding is the key that opens the door to a better future for everybody.
One thing I think I know about ourselves is that we are very insecure in our political faith. And one result is that instead of arguing the issues we assault the humanity of the other and ridicule his or her thinking. That's cool, but it doesn't do much to resolve the issues. It may also be that for some of us that is the intention (just to put down). If so than those who are serious need to recognize and anticipate a certain 'clown element', for lack of a better term, in all political threads, or for that matter any others involving the ways we identify. It will, of course, be tempting to respond to such people via counterattack, and that's cool too, but since the 'clown element', as I have perhaps inappropriately identified it, is dealing with their own emotional issues (i.e. a need to put down) rather than political issues you will quickly wind up in a flame war involving egos. 😀
Meanwhile there really are facinating political issues about how we manage our society and other ones about how we create a civil society. I believe that self understanding is the key that opens the door to a better future for everybody.
The left wants everyone else to pay for their morality. Instead of doing things themselves for others they want the government to do it for them. Then by voting for the "Robin Hood" politicians they think they are performing their public service and they don't have to get their own hands dirty.
Red, is that a Valley girl "I'm sure"?
Red, is that a Valley girl "I'm sure"?
<< I have many Republican friends. My Mom is an active mucky muck in the Republican party. I love these people. They are decent, generous, and want the best for the country. They believe the things they do not because they are stupid, mentally ill, or evil. They believe what they do because it is what they see as being right. I, on the other hand, and many other of my friends, see something different. The question seems to me to be who has the best, most accurate vision. The problem is that each side sees what they see so they see their side as being right. So the question shifts somewhat to who has the deeper vision. Again this is an argument. It seems then that what is left is to argue the case and compare the info with what we know about ourselves. What do we know about our selves? Yes, what do we know about ourselves?
One thing I think I know about ourselves is that we are very insecure in our political faith. And one result is that instead of arguing the issues we assault the humanity of the other and ridicule his or her thinking. That's cool, but it doesn't do much to resolve the issues. It may also be that for some of us that is the intention (just to put down). If so than those who are serious need to recognize and anticipate a certain 'clown element', for lack of a better term, in all political threads, or for that matter any others involving the ways we identify. It will, of course, be tempting to respond to such people via counterattack, and that's cool too, but since the 'clown element', as I have perhaps inappropriately identified it, is dealing with their own emotional issues (i.e. a need to put down) rather than political issues you will quickly wind up in a flame war involving egos. 😀
Meanwhile there really are facinating political issues about how we manage our society and other ones about how we create a civil society. I believe that self understanding is the key that opens the door to a better future for everybody. >>
Holy shït! Stop the presses, an intelligent argument made in ATOT? Amazing!
Seriously though, that's a very accurate statement on the political situation. Personally, I'm neither republican nor democrat (Nader & The Greens!) so I look at this entire thread with a certain amount of amusement. Another thing I find rather hillarious is pro-life people that are also pro-death penalty. That cracks me up every time.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
<< Moderates are people who compromise theyre ideals for the majority. >>
On the Contrary, Moderates are not single minded singople minded like Liberals and Conservatives. They don't see things as Black and White, they see things is different shades of grey if not in color. Towing the the political line whether one is hard line Conservative or Liberal is letting other do the thinking for you.
It's interesting now that George W Buffon is in Power the Ultra's act as if they were given a Mandate. Here's some news for you guys, you weren't. In fact you didn't even get the popular vote (though they gote the vote that counted, the Electorial College)
Phokus
Lifer
<<
<< Forgot to add etech and Amused One to the list of fanatical buffoons. >>
Hehehe, you must be looking to get a Can of Whoopass opened up on you saying that. >>
I don't care, its true. They don't look at anything objectively, all they do is scour the 'net for anything anti-liberal and post on the forum to cause trouble. I bet they'd do the same if they saw something negative about conservatives, yeah right.
<< A Republican and a Democrat were walking down the street
when they came to a homeless person. The republican gave
the homeless person his business card and told him to
come to his business for a job. He then took twenty dollars out of his
pocket and gave it to the homeless person.
The Democrat was very impressed, and when they came to
another homeless person, he decided to help. He walked
over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the welfare office.
He then reached into the Republican's pocket, took fifty dollars, and gave
it to the homeless person.
It takes some people years to figure out the real
differences between Democrats and Republicans, and this
little story says it all. >>
This story has been told in political circles probably before I was born. Got anything new cause this is old. And by the way we know that first person was white. Cause we know ain't no republican gonna give a black person a thing, but a hard time. lol Just kidding 🙂
It is all retreads...if you lurk around the forums long enough, it all comes back. Although this was not adressed to me, I just had to respond...
<< Regarding WordSmith2000's post.
Well, this republican drives American made cars.
this republican believes in teaching a man to fish.
this republican believes that if you fear that your job is going to go overseas you should get some training.
this republican gave over 5% of his salary to charity (having chosen them based on his own values). >>
Driving American made cars is a joke. Half the parts in all cars nowadays are from foriegn manufacturers; don't wave that flag in my face unless you are driving a Saturn. Otherwise, you are supporting foriegn nationalists one way or another. On a further note, hundreds of thousands of "foriegn" cars are built right here in the good ol' us of a.
Teach a man to fish? Hmmm. Then you must support government sponsored retraining, student loans and day care for the children of mothers who want to climb out of poverty. Good for you!
As far as jobs going overseas is concerned...can you please tell all of the plant workers in America how to tell when the plant owner is lying to the workers about the plant closing? If an article comes out in the paper that the plant is going to be sold in two months, can you please tell the plant workers how they will garner enough knowledge to start a new career in that time frame? At my last job, for instance, I was told not less than 10 times that my job was secure, even though the company had gone thru layoffs. The very morning that I was laid off, my boss clapped me on the back and said he was looking forward to the next five years with me working on his team. I am sure he did that so that I would not destroy the work that I had yet to be paid for (this was an IT job). At 4pm, they slammed down the firewall, turned off power to our entire floor, and kicked us out with two week's severance.
I consider myself lucky; I am damn good at what I do, and employment is easy to find. My dad worked 12 years in the same plant and had zero indication that the place was going to shut down; the plant handed out profit sharing checks two weeks before it closed! So here is a 61 year old man with maybe 6 months of salary in the bank, and no other plants in town to work at. He had to learn another trade, but it took him almost two years. The owner of the plant made 77 million dollars when he sold it to a German firm and closed it; his grandkids thumb their noses at all the "poor" people in town as they drive around in their Corvettes. You and I know that for every "kind" conservative story out there, there is at least two stories like mine.
Oh, and that 5% to charity? I would be willing to bet my kid's lives on the fact that you use that 5% as a nice fat tax deduction. Who the hell do you think you are fooling?
<< Regarding WordSmith2000's post.
Well, this republican drives American made cars.
this republican believes in teaching a man to fish.
this republican believes that if you fear that your job is going to go overseas you should get some training.
this republican gave over 5% of his salary to charity (having chosen them based on his own values). >>
Driving American made cars is a joke. Half the parts in all cars nowadays are from foriegn manufacturers; don't wave that flag in my face unless you are driving a Saturn. Otherwise, you are supporting foriegn nationalists one way or another. On a further note, hundreds of thousands of "foriegn" cars are built right here in the good ol' us of a.
Teach a man to fish? Hmmm. Then you must support government sponsored retraining, student loans and day care for the children of mothers who want to climb out of poverty. Good for you!
As far as jobs going overseas is concerned...can you please tell all of the plant workers in America how to tell when the plant owner is lying to the workers about the plant closing? If an article comes out in the paper that the plant is going to be sold in two months, can you please tell the plant workers how they will garner enough knowledge to start a new career in that time frame? At my last job, for instance, I was told not less than 10 times that my job was secure, even though the company had gone thru layoffs. The very morning that I was laid off, my boss clapped me on the back and said he was looking forward to the next five years with me working on his team. I am sure he did that so that I would not destroy the work that I had yet to be paid for (this was an IT job). At 4pm, they slammed down the firewall, turned off power to our entire floor, and kicked us out with two week's severance.
I consider myself lucky; I am damn good at what I do, and employment is easy to find. My dad worked 12 years in the same plant and had zero indication that the place was going to shut down; the plant handed out profit sharing checks two weeks before it closed! So here is a 61 year old man with maybe 6 months of salary in the bank, and no other plants in town to work at. He had to learn another trade, but it took him almost two years. The owner of the plant made 77 million dollars when he sold it to a German firm and closed it; his grandkids thumb their noses at all the "poor" people in town as they drive around in their Corvettes. You and I know that for every "kind" conservative story out there, there is at least two stories like mine.
Oh, and that 5% to charity? I would be willing to bet my kid's lives on the fact that you use that 5% as a nice fat tax deduction. Who the hell do you think you are fooling?
Red Dawn
Elite Member
<< I would like to know when was the last time a business owner who posts here stopped, gave a homeless guy 20 bucks and his business card. I am sure that I will retire before someone could tell me that story without lying >>
I was in San Francisco about 15 years ago and I gave a Homeless guy $20.00, of course he had a knife up against my ribs at the time.
shiner
Lifer
I give to charities, not individuals. I gave $20 to a little old lady once because she looked pathetic and cold. I went into the grocery store, came out and she was headed into the bar across the street. I walked in, saw her order a drink, took my $ back from her. Never again will I give $ directly to an indivdual.
A Republican and a Democrat were walking down the street
when they came to a homeless person. The republican Kicked the homeless guy
in the face and walked away and gave his upper middle class friend a job, comming back and
kicking the homeless guy every day.
The Democrat was very impressed, and when they came to
another homeless person, he decided to help. He walked
over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the welfare office.
He then reached into the Republican's pocket, took fifty dollars, and gave
it to the homeless person.
I walk past the homeless person and use my 20 dollars to but a large pizza, and eat the whold thing my self.
when they came to a homeless person. The republican Kicked the homeless guy
in the face and walked away and gave his upper middle class friend a job, comming back and
kicking the homeless guy every day.
The Democrat was very impressed, and when they came to
another homeless person, he decided to help. He walked
over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the welfare office.
He then reached into the Republican's pocket, took fifty dollars, and gave
it to the homeless person.
I walk past the homeless person and use my 20 dollars to but a large pizza, and eat the whold thing my self.
>>maximize social welfare, i say. thats my policy and i'm stickin' to it. and ain't one of you mofos going to change it.<<
I am reminded of Murray's "Law of Unintended Rewards." It states that:
"Any social transfer increases the net value of being in the condition that prompted the transfer." It does so "either by increasing the rewards or by reducing the penalties" normally associated with the condition, or behavior, which the government is trying to ameliorate...In short, to transfer my money to someone on welfare does nothing but makes that person on welfare less likely to do anything about the reasons he's on welfare....a so-called welfare-state 😉
I am reminded of Murray's "Law of Unintended Rewards." It states that:
"Any social transfer increases the net value of being in the condition that prompted the transfer." It does so "either by increasing the rewards or by reducing the penalties" normally associated with the condition, or behavior, which the government is trying to ameliorate...In short, to transfer my money to someone on welfare does nothing but makes that person on welfare less likely to do anything about the reasons he's on welfare....a so-called welfare-state 😉
The Republican walks by the bum goes to work and sees how much of his profits is being taken by the government in taxes and decideds he can't afford to hire any more workers.
The democrat just walks by as he goes to work for the republican and wishes the governement would do something about the homeless so he doesn't have to see them.
Red, no whoop ass for Phokus today. When he says something worth refuting, then I'll open up a new case just for him. 😉
The democrat just walks by as he goes to work for the republican and wishes the governement would do something about the homeless so he doesn't have to see them.
Red, no whoop ass for Phokus today. When he says something worth refuting, then I'll open up a new case just for him. 😉
GasX
Lifer
<< Oh, and that 5% to charity? I would be willing to bet my kid's lives on the fact that you use that 5% as a nice fat tax deduction. Who the hell do you think you are fooling? >>
What's your point? That's probably a lot more than to a good cause than you gave. Tax deductions are DE-DUC-SHUN'S. That just means the government doesn't take it's cut of that money. It get's plenty from the rest of my income.
The point is that 5% doesnt make you a saint so stop bragging like you are one... it was getting redistributed to some extent already.... so you're no more special than anyone else. And furthermore I'd be interested in seeing what charity you gave money too anyhow... and thereby who you're interested in helping.
-Max
-Max
WordSmith2000
Banned
<< Regarding WordSmith2000's post.
Well, this republican drives American made cars.
this republican believes in teaching a man to fish.
this republican believes that if you fear that your job is going to go overseas you should get some training.
this republican gave over 5% of his salary to charity (having chosen them based on his own values).
what about you? >>
I drive a "foriegn" car because it was the best value. The car was recieved in an American shipyard, trucked across the country by an American trucking company, and sold by an American woman in an American owned car dealership. What does that prove? Nothing. While you are busy patting yourself on the back, go turn on your japanese stereo, your korean cofee maker, and your TV made in Taiwan. And don't forget to put on your Nikes, made by little kids for 6 cents a day. You cannot get away from foriegn manufacturing. The point I was making is that my example is a lot closer to reality than yours.
You want to teach a man to fish? Fine. Lobby the government and big business to pay for retraining of it's workers; by and large the people who need it the most are certainly not earning enough to pay for it themselves.
Get training...see my paragraph above. Training in what? Most of the people who face long term unemployment nowadays are unskilled workers or niche workers who will starve before they learn enough to make a decent wage, given the short lead time they have concerning plant closings or layoffs. A company announces layoffs either just before or after they occur...how the hell do you plan for that when all you have is a 10th grade education and 15 years of service?
Lastly...that 5% you give is such bull$hit. You do not give it because you want to make someone's life better, you give it because you are pissed at the way the government spends the rest of your tax dollars. If you had to pay NO taxes, I would bet that you would give to NO charities...but thankfully, with Democrats controlling the senate (and in two years, the house), you will continue to have reason to bitch about where your money goes.
As far as my charitable contributions go...I do volunteer work when I could be creating billable hours. And I don't take it off of my taxes. Unlike most people here, I feel we are taxed just about right for all the things the government does.
GasX
Lifer
<< Lastly...that 5% you give is such bull$hit. You do not give it because you want to make someone's life better, you give it because you are pissed at the way the government spends the rest of your tax dollars. If you had to pay NO taxes, I would bet that you would give to NO charities...but thankfully, with Democrats controlling the senate (and in two years, the house), you will continue to have reason to bitch about where your money goes. >>
How can you purport to know my reasons for giving to charity? There is nothing tax related about my charitable giving. I personally gave over $5000 to charities last year and through a foundation that I am a board member of directed another $50,000. If I had to pay NO taxes, I would have an extra $30,000+ to split between me and my charities.
Go screw yourself Mr High Horse
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