Democracy and the Egyptian Arab Spring- wasted. A new dictator arises

[Jhhnn]

I guess these people are just over-reacting right?

LOLOLOL - You couldn't be more wrong. However I'm pretty sure you're used to that and will no doubt "keep on trucking" through the truth.

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."


http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-reformist-warns-turmoil-morsi-decree-202922745.html



http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-top-judges-slam-presidents-powers-125612534.html



http://news.yahoo.com/elbaradei-egypt-president-must-rescind-powers-182913824.html

Egypt's highest body of judges is illegitimate, although they pretend they aren't. They had a revolution, remember? Mubarak & cronies were rejected by the people, and those judges are obviously Mubarak cronies. They definitely have less legitimacy than Morsi.

The best thing that could happen for Egyptians would be for the people tasked with writing the Constitution to get off their butts & do it, pronto, followed by more elections to establish a truly legit govt. Yeh, they have up to 8 months, but sooner is better than later.

 

[Moonbeam]

DucatiMonster: Oh LoonieBeam please tell me how the Muslim Brotherhood is going to save the people of Egypt again.

M: How would I know. Are they supposed to save them?

DM: Or how they are not a threat to any sort of freedom that the people of Egypt have attained since they removed their last dictator.

M: I don't know. Are they a threat?

DM: Then go back and tell me how it's all the fault of conservatives in this country or anyone else who saw the MB for what they were and warned against this so called "Arab Spring" because they saw it as the opening for the radicals to move in and grab power.

M: How would anybody here know that? Conservatives doubtless fear any change.

DM: Also can you continually shift the blame and ignore all direct answers to questions while your at it.

M: How do I know the questions aren't the product of delusion, programming, and a defect in the brain? Just because somebody is brewing up a big bathtub of psychosis doesn't mean I'm going to jump in.

 

[Moonbeam]

Looks a bit like a new one ring was forged to replace the old one ring held by the judiciary:


A new decree will allow Morsi to reinstate Egypt parliament:

Thursday's constitutional declaration will grant President Morsi the right to reconvene
Egypt's Islamist-led parliament, dissolved this summer on orders of military

Ekram Ibrahim, Thursday 22 Nov 2012

Egypt's President Morsi expands power, defies judiciary with new declaration

A new constitutional declaration issued on Thursday gives the president unlimited powers, say some legal experts, and will allow President Mohamed Morsi to reinstate the dissolved Islamist-led parliament and appoint a new prosecutor-general.

"With this declaration, the president has put an end to the law and the judiciary system. This is absolute fascism," Hossam Essa, legal expert and Cairo University law professor, told Ahram Online.

The declaration states: "Constitutional declarations and presidential decisions taken since the president has taken office and until the constitution is issued are not refutable."

Days after Morsi assumed the presidency, he issued a decree reinstating the dissolved Islamist-led parliament. In response, the High Constitutional Court (HCC) overturned Morsi’s decision, calling it unconstitutional.

Parliament has remained dissolved to date, but experts say the latest declaration opens the door for the president to reinstate it. "The president granted himself the right to bring back the dissolved parliament," Essa told Ahram Online.

On 15 June, before Morsi won the presidential elections, Egypt’s then-ruling military council ordered the dissolution of parliament based on an HCC ruling, which rendered Egypt's parliamentary elections law unconstitutional.

The latest constitutional declaration not only gives the president the right to reconvene parliament, but it also gives him the power to appoint a new prosecutor-general. Morsi has since appointed Talaat Abdallah as prosecutor-general in place of Abdel-Meguid Mahmoud.

"With this latest constitutional declaration, Morsi has given himself the right to do anything and everything," Essa said.

The fight over the appointment of the prosecutor-general goes back to October, when Morsi attempted to remove Egypt's Mubarak-era prosecutor-general from the post he had held since 2006. Mahmoud, however, challenged the decision and had remained in office until today.

Before the latest constitutional declaration was announced, hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood members amassed outside Egypt's Supreme Court in Cairo to demand a "purge" of the country's judicial system, including Mahmoud's dismissal.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What a fucked up thread.
The judges Morsi is trying to "get around" where put into power by Mubarak. They have been doing everything possible to stop Morsi from governing.

There is no sharia law in Egypt. Just like in the US the laws in Egypt are based on the prevailing religion.You can find much stronger examples of Sharia law in such great US allies as Saudi Arabia and Dubai.

Its too soon to really know about Morsi. The good news is that he is not shooting demonstrators in the streets like our guy Mubarak did. And since there are real elections in Egypt Morsi has to take that into account.

Remember America was barely a country when we passed the Alien and Sedition Acts. Lets give the Egyptians at least as much slack in getting democracy right as we got.

Religion is irrelevant. What is not is that the judges may not embrace Morsi however that was not stopping a constitution from being created. Delayed a bit, but the Egyptians aren't having much choice. Opposition is swept away. I want democracy done right, but becoming a dictator? To give other perspectives a voice? Then why assume control? It's to have MB's version. Note that the President has all a authority to preserve the spirit of the revolution. Who's interpretation? The one who has all power. No compromise is needed. No, those in Egypt who wanted democracy decry this action. I support them, not someone who has demonstrated that his sensibilities are what matters. No.

Edit- the Constitution does not mention elections, but if there are Morsi has given himself the authority to prevent or void the results. They might not conform to "the spirit" of the revolution as defined by Morsi. An authoritarians dream democracy.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What a fucked up thread.
The judges Morsi is trying to "get around" where put into power by Mubarak. They have been doing everything possible to stop Morsi from governing.

There is no sharia law in Egypt. Just like in the US the laws in Egypt are based on the prevailing religion.You can find much stronger examples of Sharia law in such great US allies as Saudi Arabia and Dubai.

Its too soon to really know about Morsi. The good news is that he is not shooting demonstrators in the streets like our guy Mubarak did. And since there are real elections in Egypt Morsi has to take that into account.

Remember America was barely a country when we passed the Alien and Sedition Acts. Lets give the Egyptians at least as much slack in getting democracy right as we got.

__________________

so sad a true Muslim Brotherhood apologist.......wow he comes out of the closet.....hahahahaaaaaaaa.......I suppose the allies should have given your Fuhrer, Adolph Hitler a chance also......

 

[Moonbeam]

so sad a true Muslim Brotherhood apologist.......wow he comes out of the closet.....hahahahaaaaaaaa.......I suppose the allies should have given your Fuhrer, Adolph Hitler a chance also......

What if you had to the opportunity to stop him, illegally, would you think you would have done so?

 

[Agent11]

Our constitution is inspired by the enlightenment, theirs is looking like it will be inspired by sharia law.

That's pretty scary imo.

 

[fskimospy]

so sad a true Muslim Brotherhood apologist.......wow he comes out of the closet.....hahahahaaaaaaaa.......I suppose the allies should have given your Fuhrer, Adolph Hitler a chance also......

Yeah comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the Nazis is a totally valid comparison.

I think it's pretty clear that judges left over from Mubarak have been trying to gum up the works. That being said, simply declaring yourself above the law is a pretty horrendously bad way to get around that.

I'm not entirely sure what all this hand wringing about Egypt is for though, it's not like we could have prevented it. Does anyone think that US support for Mubarak would have a.) kept him in power or b.) resulted in a different governing party now? I find both to be highly unlikely, we would have just had a population in Egypt that was even more hostile to the US.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeah comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the Nazis is a totally valid comparison.

I think it's pretty clear that judges left over from Mubarak have been trying to gum up the works. That being said, simply declaring yourself above the law is a pretty horrendously bad way to get around that.

I'm not entirely sure what all this hand wringing about Egypt is for though, it's not like we could have prevented it. Does anyone think that US support for Mubarak would have a.) kept him in power or b.) resulted in a different governing party now? I find both to be highly unlikely, we would have just had a population in Egypt that was even more hostile to the US.

The MB is not equivalent to the Nazis, but they are responsible for the current dictatorship. Morsi is one of them. Disposing of one dictator to install another is hardly commendable, and this time the blame rests solely on one party, the MB.

 

[StrangerGuy]

The MB is not equivalent to the Nazis, but they are responsible for the current dictatorship. Morsi is one of them. Disposing of one dictator to install another is hardly commendable, and this time the blame rests solely on one party, the MB.

Don't worry, assuming Morsi gets disposed of with a new round of elections, Egyptians with all their infinite wisdom will think they aren't Islamic enough last round and vote in an even more hardcore candidate.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

so sad a true muslim brotherhood apologist.......wow he comes out of the closet.....hahahahaaaaaaaa.......i suppose the allies should have given your fuhrer, adolph hitler a chance also......

לא

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yeah comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the Nazis is a totally valid comparison.

I think it's pretty clear that judges left over from Mubarak have been trying to gum up the works. That being said, simply declaring yourself above the law is a pretty horrendously bad way to get around that.

I'm not entirely sure what all this hand wringing about Egypt is for though, it's not like we could have prevented it. Does anyone think that US support for Mubarak would have a.) kept him in power or b.) resulted in a different governing party now? I find both to be highly unlikely, we would have just had a population in Egypt that was even more hostile to the US.

You do realize that it's not about the Judges alone? That he has now gotten exclusive power to do whatever he pleases including the drafting of the new constitution?

This is quite likely a move required by others than Morsi, namely the religious leaders in the MB who a la Iran wants to be the rulers behind the president.

I don't think the choice between Mubarak and Morsi is a valid one either, there need to be a secular party that isn't an ex dictator to actually have a choice between real democracy or religious institutionalization.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You do realize that it's not about the Judges alone? That he has now gotten exclusive power to do whatever he pleases including the drafting of the new constitution?

This is quite likely a move required by others than Morsi, namely the religious leaders in the MB who a la Iran wants to be the rulers behind the president.

I don't think the choice between Mubarak and Morsi is a valid one either, there need to be a secular party that isn't an ex dictator to actually have a choice between real democracy or religious institutionalization.

That's true. MB controls Parliament, eliminates resistance in the judiciary, makes whatever final constitution is drafted. They can do as they please if not removed. Egypt could be the next Iran, all based on deceit and treachery. Theres little reason to assume a dictatorial government exists to promote a democracy which might unseat them.

 

[Lemon law]

Our constitution is inspired by the enlightenment, theirs is looking like it will be inspired by sharia law.

That's pretty scary imo.

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Somewhat an idiotic contention here, simply because Egypt still lacks a constitution.

But still, the Egyptian people have gone ballistic over the Morsi power grab, and I suspect that Morsi will have to back down.

But still all and all, if the people of Egypt do not support the efforts of Morsi, there is a huge danger that Egypt will fall into anarchy to the determent of everyone in the Mid-east, and especially Israel.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

M

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But still all and all, if the people of Egypt do not support the efforts of Morsi, there is a huge danger that Egypt will fall into anarchy to the determent of everyone in the Mid-east, and especially Israel.

Egyptians you now know. Support your local dictator.

 

[Lemon law]

M

Egyptians you now know. Support your local dictator.

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Earth to Hayabususa, Israel may want it but Israel will not become the new Egyptian dictator either. A nation in anarchy is a threat to all its neighbors.

So far the people of Gaza have a limited supply of offensive effective missiles, and without a strong and effective Egyptian government to deter smuggling, there is no shortage of wealthy Arab nations to fund a mid-east effort to fund terrorists using increasing higher tech missiles coming at Israel from all points of the compass.

As we should all realize if Egyptian democracy fails, all other alternatives are far worse.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Earth to Hayabususa, Israel may want it but Israel will not become the new Egyptian dictator either

Then it's a good thing that Israel doesn't want that.

So far the people of Gaza have a limited supply of offensive effective missiles, and without a strong and effective Egyptian government to deter smuggling, there is no shortage of wealthy Arab nations to fund a mid-east effort to fund terrorists using increasing higher tech missiles coming at Israel from all points of the compass

Hamas and MB are related. Having a strong and effective government which is a parent of Hamas isn't reassuring. Iran will continue to supply missiles to Hamas and a dictatorial pro Hamas government will allow them to get through. What that means is a higher probability of Israel striking Iran because of it. A more secular democratic government in Egypt is a good thing. A dictatorship run by MB is not. Egypt is not Iraq. There isn't a simmering ethnic war brewing. Your argument could be used to say that Mubarak should have stayed in power. I disagree.

As we should all realize if Egyptian democracy fails, all other alternatives are far worse.

This makes no sense. Egyptian democracy has already failed by the actions of the MB. What remains to be seen is if the current government can be ousted and democracy restored. You cannot have the oxymoron of a democratically elected dictatorship. Pick one.

 

[Moonbeam]

To me this is a lot like extending a hand to the Republicans who have obstructed everything you try to do for 4 years just to try to make you lose office, fuck the country because they want to win. Do you ever say enough is enough. Do you ever say no more of that shit to a child? Do you ever impose on the insane and irrational. Not even when stupidity and blindness threaten the live of the nation? Or must we never say we are sure, like admitting the death of the nation might actually be a good thing? Do you never grab the reigns our of instinct? Must we always be unsure? We seem pretty sure here that MB is a dictator. The other day I overheard a rumor that I was dead but somehow, someway, I just couldn't believe it.

 

[Incorruptible]

Yeah comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the Nazis is a totally valid comparison.

I think it's pretty clear that judges left over from Mubarak have been trying to gum up the works. That being said, simply declaring yourself above the law is a pretty horrendously bad way to get around that.

I'm not entirely sure what all this hand wringing about Egypt is for though, it's not like we could have prevented it. Does anyone think that US support for Mubarak would have a.) kept him in power or b.) resulted in a different governing party now? I find both to be highly unlikely, we would have just had a population in Egypt that was even more hostile to the US.

The MB is a dictatorship, they want the destruction of Israel, all Jews and sharia law in the world. They pretend to be moderate so idiot white liberals and useful idiots support them

 

[JEDIYoda]

לא

Your correct. I did go overboard...
I was trying fishing for a response!!

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