Dec. Steam Hardware Survey - AMD maintains DX11 dominance at near 80% of the market.

[Qbah]

I think it is, next he can write thread how nvdia dominates DX7 market, which is irrelevant and just hides what is important. what is important is that DX11 card is simply not needed for most right now

What's next? Let me guess... Most people don't play games anyway, so they don't need a gaming card... But wait, most people don't use a computer anyway, so why even have PC hardware forums? ATF is doomed! So is AT in general! And the Internet!

 

[happy medium]

Can't we just ban these threads?
Having to go through this crap once a month gets boring.

This post is an official request to ban creation of threads about the Steam hardware survey.

+1 , agreed.

 

[Idontcare]

Can't we just ban these threads?
Having to go through this crap once a month gets boring.

This post is an official request to ban creation of threads about the Steam hardware survey.

Already reported it as a bait thread. I'd advise you, and anyone else, to do the same if you are so inclined. Maybe we can rid the forums of this eventually.

+1 , agreed.

Your posts are thread-crap in their current form and posting location, wrong venue, start a new thread in Moderator Discussions clearly stating your proposal and we will engage in the discussion in that venue.

For now the same old adage applies...you can read the thread title from the VC&G sub-forum homepage, you know what is going to be inside the thread, no one hacked your computer and made your mouse click on the thread's hyperlink, no one forced you to add a new post, no one required you to add thread-crap to the thread.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the thread then you are expected to refrain from posting in it.

That is true of all threads, this one is no more or less special than any other thread when it comes to forum posting guidelines and expectations.

we've done this to death. the example was shown that AMD can outsell nV 2:1 and still lose market share. props to whoever made that one, i cant remember who it was though...

absolute numbers are key here. steam is limited survey in a limited community inside a limited market. kthxbye.

Done to death and yet still relevant to have the discussion as we continually add new members to our ranks, registered as well as visiting lurkers, and so long as people are willing to invest their time and effort into having a cerebral and respectful discussion regarding the topic (example here) then the topic is clearly relevant to the community and as such serves a purpose for the community.

Otherwise the thread would not garner posts and would quickly fall off the front-page altogether.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[shangshang]

If AMD is dominating in DX11, then shouldn't every Joe out there want an AMD card? and by reason, driving up all AMD card prices and driving down all NV card prices?? But that's not the case isn't it?

And also it seems to me like Wall Street doesn't agree with the doom and gloom attitude of the AMD fanboys based on Steam Survey?? NV stock prices are going through the roof? but that's probably Tegra2 related. I sidetracked.

IMO this thread belongs to the "SO WHAT???" category. It's more attention-grabbing than anything meaningful. Seriously, what the hell was the OP thinking when he posted this for discussion. What kind of value or debate was he expecting to get out of this? I mean did the OP go the Steam site, dug up the survey, and say "let's post this on Anandtech to see what kinda reaction I'll get out of the boys". Funny how the OP hasn't made one followup in his own thread.. but yet managed to get plenty of other controversial figures to post in his thread. This stuff is high school playground.

c'mon
Steam survey = joke
using Steam survey to show a point = joke
are we still in high school?
and I still don't know the point of this (monthly) thread!


Seriously? Like, uhm, you didn't notice the big-ole mod post that is now directly above your post before you decided to go on record with a big thread-crap like this? Seriously?

(don't answer that, seriously)

Thread-crapping is not acceptable. It wasn't acceptable before post #28 and it isn't acceptable after post #28.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[badb0y]

Technically AMD has to outsell nVidia 8:2 to keep this up, which is highly unlikely.

 

[Throckmorton]

we've done this to death. the example was shown that AMD can outsell nV 2:1 and still lose market share. props to whoever made that one, i cant remember who it was though...

absolute numbers are key here. steam is limited survey in a limited community inside a limited market. kthxbye.

How is it a limited community inside a limited market? It's probably the vast majority of gamers

 

[Voo]

Steam survey = joke
using Steam survey to show a point = joke
are we still in high school?

Is the last sentence based on your own mindset in that discussion? Because I'm pretty sure in an adult discussion you usually provide arguments for your points.

For example: there are only 30million active user accounts on steam and estimations for steams market share for digital distributed games waver around 70% (which is an older number and the actual value by now most certainly higher), so considering that digital distributed games make up probably less than 50% of the whole gaming market share the best case market share for this study would be somewhere around 30%, without excluding all those people who don't participate in the survey.

On which someone could ask if you're even able to name one private survey with a higher percentage, because most surveys have a N of a few thousand people.

 

[Skurge]

Is the last sentence based on your own mindset in that discussion? Because I'm pretty sure in an adult discussion you usually provide arguments for your points.

For example: there are only 30million active user accounts on steam and estimations for steams market share for digital distributed games waver around 70% (which is an older number and the actual value by now most certainly higher), so considering that digital distributed games make up probably less than 50% of the whole gaming market share the best case market share for this study would be somewhere around 30%, without excluding all those people who don't participate in the survey.

On which someone could ask if you're even able to name one private survey with a higher percentage, because most surveys have a N of a few thousand people.

Actually it was just under 50%, I'm not sure what the article was, but it was on Bit-Tech.

 

[Grooveriding]

I find the data interesting because of how it points to great relevancy of getting to market first with cards on a new process or cards introducing the latest DX API.

AMD capitalized big-time with the 5870/5850 launch and nvidia lost out and is still picking up the dregs rather than eating the main course.

The real shame is that for a few isolated posters who are so invested in a company and its appearance that they can't look at this data impartially because they get their panties in a bunch over nvidia having blundered.

If you have a better source of DX11 hardware market share numbers, please share it.

We will very likely see the same thing happen late this year with 28nm parts if there is again a failure by Nvidia or alternately AMD to not release their parts closely in time with the opposing company.

Although I'll wager nvidia is now on a mission to not screw-up like that again.

But I see AMD with the advantage as they have Global Foundries and TSMC. There is still nothing solid to say that Global will be producing 28nm GPUs though, but there is data that they are prepping 28nm production, so it's a very real possibility. If they are ready significantly earlier than TSMC, AMD may strike while the iron is hot again.


You are on the verge of derailing your own thread in the direction of making it flamebait by virtue of your needless castigation of your fellow forum colleagues.

Re:

The real shame is that for a few isolated posters who are so invested in a company and its appearance that they can't look at this data impartially because they get their panties in a bunch over nvidia having blundered.

Please reconsider your approach.

AnandTech Forum Guidelines

We want to give all our members as much freedom as possible while maintaining an environment that encourages productive discussion. It is our desire to encourage our members to share their knowledge and experiences in order to benefit the rest of the community, while also providing a place for people to come and just hang out.

We also intend to encourage respect and responsibility among members in order to maintain order and civility. Our social forums will have a relaxed atmosphere, but other forums will be expected to remain on-topic and posts should be helpful, relevant and professional.

We ask for respect and common decency towards your fellow forum members.

Your moderation staff joins your fellow forum members in asking you to please help us in keeping this forum civil, respectful, and open-minded towards ALL of its members.

If you have nothing good to say regarding any one of your fellow members then please refrain from posting your personal opinions regarding them.

If you feel you have a valid concern or complaint regarding a post or poster then you are expected to report the post and restrict your communication of this concern to the comment box therein and leave the matter to the discretion of your moderator staff.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Wreckage]

AMD capitalized big-time with the 5870/5850 launch and nvidia lost out and is still picking up the dregs rather than eating the main course.

This line made me laugh a bit.

http://hothardware.com/News/Despite-Yield-Problems-GPU-Sales-Surged-in-Q4-2009/

Ooops. AMD actually lost marketshare after the 5870/5850 launched.

NVIDIA's share of the discrete desktop market grew in the fourth quarter

I find the data interesting because of how it points to great relevancy of getting to market first with cards on a new process or cards introducing the latest DX API.

Now add

The real shame is that for a few isolated posters who are so invested in a company and its appearance that they can't look at this data impartially

Now I will certainly admit that Fermi's delay hurt NVIDIA. But AMD did a poor job of capitalizing on it.

 

[badb0y]

This line made me laugh a bit.

http://hothardware.com/News/Despite-Yield-Problems-GPU-Sales-Surged-in-Q4-2009/

Ooops. AMD actually lost marketshare after the 5870/5850 launched.







Now add


Now I will certainly admit that Fermi's delay hurt NVIDIA. But AMD did a poor job of capitalizing on it.

You have to be trolling.

 

[GaiaHunter]

DX11 is 5.6% of the survey

No.

DX11 is 15.64% of the market share. At least within steam survey community.

 

[sandorski]

This line made me laugh a bit.

http://hothardware.com/News/Despite-Yield-Problems-GPU-Sales-Surged-in-Q4-2009/

Ooops. AMD actually lost marketshare after the 5870/5850 launched.







Now add


Now I will certainly admit that Fermi's delay hurt NVIDIA. But AMD did a poor job of capitalizing on it.

DX11 is the issue here, not just overall Marketshare.

 

[3DVagabond]

Can't we just ban these threads?
Having to go through this crap once a month gets boring.

This post is an official request to ban creation of threads about the Steam hardware survey.

Why not just choose to ignore it, if you find no value in it? I generally do, although I read it. I just don't typically comment a lot in these threads. Calling for a ban on them is ridiculous though.

Already reported it as a bait thread. I'd advise you, and anyone else, to do the same if you are so inclined. Maybe we can rid the forums of this eventually.

Bait thread? At least it's a thread with hard statistics in it. You were in favor of people being able to post from rumor sites claiming it as official information. Are you possibly just in favor of, figuratively, shooting the messenger because you don't like the message.

 

[Wreckage]

DX11 is the issue here, not just overall Marketshare.

This is a thread-crap. Please don't thread-crap.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[sandorski]

Gotta point?

 

[Grooveriding]

DX11 is the issue here, not just overall Marketshare.

Yes, this is the whole obvious point. DX11 is all that matters when looking at current marketshare, as in the past year and a half.

I don't think there are too many 8800GTs and 4870s still being sold retail

Plenty of DX11 cards though.

 

[HeXen]

Yeah just imagine MS sharing anonymized data from users that opted-in to send them that data. Oh what a horrible imaginat.. oh, they've been doing that for years? Ah well, carry on, no reason to stop someone from ranting, just because facts got in the way.

Also while steam obviously can't be 100% accurate (because they don't have 100% market share of all gamers, not all users share their technical data,..), it's by far the best estimation we can get and I'd be pretty surprised if steam didn't have at least 1/3 overall market share.

i didn't think you had a choice to not share in Steam? maybe they changed it since i last used it.
MS's is off by default. Utorrent is on by default, seems many apps these days spy on us...i just hate the ones that sell that data and make $$. At least in MS's case, the info gives them priorities on what needs worked on.
but major companies like Valve, i don't really care as long as its not my banking info

 

[taltamir]

to maintain a 90% AMD 10% nvidia market share, AMD needs to sell 90/10 = 9 cards per every 1 card nvidia sells.
to maintain an 80% AMD 20% nvidia it needs to sell 80/20 = 4 cards per every 1 nvidia is selling.

if AMD is selling 2 cards per every 1 card nvidia is selling, then nvidia's market share will continue to grow until it is 66.67% AMD and 33.33% nvidia. (a simple limit going to infinity, 66.67/33.33 = 2).

if AMD is selling 1 card per every 1 card nvidia is selling, then it will move towards a 50% market share each.

What does this math mean? it means that we know AMD does NOT outsell nvidia by MORE than 4 to 1. it can still be outselling nvidia by any lower figure, or nvidia could be outselling AMD, we cannot tell from the figures given.

Looks like again minimal adjustment to the DX11 marketshare numbers. It's interesting how much getting to market first has cemented AMD's holding the lionshare of the DX11 market even with all the releases NV has gone forward with, they still cannot make any significant change under their DX11 umbrella.

I disagree with your assessment that 2% change in a single month is "minimal". The DX11 market is limited to high end upgrades which are a small portion of the market, the majority are still invested in DX10. By the time DX11 will become mainstream these numbers could be anywhere.

Looking forward to 28nm cards next year and to see who comes to table first with those releases. My money is on AMD again, particularly if they are going to have Global Foundries as well as TSMC to pull from.

Interesting that you say "particularly". This indicates additional reasons, what are those? personally I have absolutely no clue which one of them will be first to market.
But I have to point out that using two foundries includes additional risks too, not just benefits.

The benefits are that if one has it's next process tech delayed or under perform, then they have a backup to fall unto. Furthermore, if both succeed well and their design is superior to their competitors, then they can more easily meet market demand (prevent loss of sales to competitors due to simple lack of product).

The drawbacks are that development for two different processes can cause delays in itself due to the extra work of fine tuning the design to work with either of said processes, and using two foundries increases the chance of information leaking, which could give a dangerous edge to their competitors.

Said foundries might also require assurances that THEIR technology isn't leaked to their competitors, and thus require segregation of development teams from each other. Which would further delay development and up costs.

 

[Lonyo]

Yes, this is the whole obvious point. DX11 is all that matters when looking at current marketshare, as in the past year and a half.

I don't think there are too many 8800GTs and 4870s still being sold retail

Plenty of DX11 cards though.

HD3870 marketshare went up, FYI, as did Geforce 6100 marketshare.

Interestingly enough, the HD6850 had zero marketshare in November, while the HD6870 was present. Apparently zero people bought HD6850s in November.
And if you look at overall marketshare, the GTX260M went from 0.56% to not existing, to 0.55%.

What an awesome survey which is clearly accurate, reliable, and indicative of... nothing.

 

[poohbear]

don't forget, there are many who do not use Steam...myself included. but i have 580gtx dx11...so add a .0000000001% to that figure:sneaky:
whats funny is, i'm sure if it was say MS Windows or some other company uploading data like this, many of the privacy nuts would be all over it like white on rice. but Steam does it and its ok.

how does this invade your privacy? does it say "name in X city has a 580GTX!!!!". its completely anonymous, chill out.

I think most pc gamers have Steam installed, its hard to imagine in 2011 never having installed Steam given its convenience. Sure there's still some simple UI features it has'nt implemented (i.e. the ability to install to a different hard drive or partition), but overall its convenient and has alot of nice sales.

 

[Idontcare]

Said foundries might also require assurances that THEIR technology isn't leaked to their competitors, and thus require segregation of development teams from each other. Which would further delay development and up costs.

The industry doesn't work this way when it comes to the foundry-customer relationship, precisely because of the following:

...and using two foundries increases the chance of information leaking, which could give a dangerous edge to their competitors.

Trust is a two-way street.

A foundry that doesn't/can't trust its customer to not share its process tech with a competing foundry is also a foundry that won't be viewed as trustworthy by a customer that is concerned with the possibility of information transfer to their own competitors at the hands of the foundry employees.

The truth is both happen, I've seen it first hand from both sides of the relationship. Everyone knows some of it is happening, you just try and minimize it out of professional courtesy.

It is also an issue when it comes to the IDM-vendor relationship in process development. The IDM (foundry in this case) relies on its vendors to work hand-in-hand to optimize the tools to maximize the benefits of a given process and at the same time the IDM does not want the vendor to give those optimizations to the IDM's competition for free either...but the vendor wants to sell more tools...so...

But in the case of the vendor-IDM relationship we (the IDM) do get to dictate the terms of engagement as this is industry standard practice, so vendors will have dedicated support teams and process engineers for this purpose.

 

[taltamir]

I didn't mean intentional leaking of technology between foundries. Just of those things would happen naturally, even if you try to minimize them, as long as people work with each other. supposedly, this is why AMD did not allow any of their employees to work on their open source drivers. They have nondisclosure agreements in regards to various portions of their own drivers (licensed from who knows who) which they cannot risk violating even unintentionally. At least that is the explanation that was given in various tech sites. All 3 companies involved know it is highly likely that future generations will be done exclusively on either the foundry company OR the TSMC. And its not like employees that worked closely with one company will suddenly forget all they learned when/if they become competitors.

A foundry that doesn't/can't trust its customer to not share its process tech with a competing foundry is also a foundry that won't be viewed as trustworthy by a customer that is concerned with the possibility of information transfer to their own competitors at the hands of the foundry employees.

So actually, I am not saying that this is false. It is a true statement ans it a big issue in this bizarre threesome, which is hurting trust all around for all involved.

As far as leaking information to the public from the foundries. This isn't a matter of trustworthiness, rather you simply have more people involved. Recall that AMD kept the development of its eyefinity technology secret. AMD knows that its own employees can be a source of leaks, just as can any other employee in any company. Security means keeping information to as few people as possible. I am not saying that they don't or shouldn't trust each other to do their best to minimize leaks. But that the best way to minimize leaks is to minimize the amount of people in the know.

 

[Grooveriding]

HD3870 marketshare went up, FYI, as did Geforce 6100 marketshare.

Interestingly enough, the HD6850 had zero marketshare in November, while the HD6870 was present. Apparently zero people bought HD6850s in November.
And if you look at overall marketshare, the GTX260M went from 0.56% to not existing, to 0.55%.

What an awesome survey which is clearly accurate, reliable, and indicative of... nothing.

With such a broad range of statistics collected there are going to be fringe elements, particularly these small percentiles for oddball cards.

There was some info from another source not too long ago that mirrored the Steam findings in terms of DX11 marketshare, let me look this up.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2112840&highlight=amd+marketshare

 

[Wreckage]

With such a broad range of statistics collected there are going to be fringe elements, particularly these small percentiles for oddball cards.

There was some info from another source not too long ago that mirrored the Steam findings in terms of DX11 marketshare, let me look this up.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2112840&highlight=amd+marketshare

Hmmmm.... from your link

HD 5000 series has sold 25 million units,

Then look at my link from above

the 2009 sales figures mark the eighth straight year of volume growth in the GPU market, from a total of 180.6 million graphics chips shipped in 2002 up to 425.4 million in 2009.

Seems the 5xxx sales were just a drop in the bucket.