Debunking the myth, BMWs maintenance are expensive.

[Zenmervolt]

But I hear you. There are plenty of people on these forums that will tout a G35 over a BMW and I used to scoff at it; that is, until a friend of mine bought a G35. It's an auto, and it's an '04 (earlier model) but there hasn't been a damn thing wrong with it in 2 years. I have a funny feeling if he would have purchased a similarly priced BMW, he would have had to repair SOMETHING on it by now.

That depends entirely on whether or not he would have done his homework when he bought the BMW.

My sister's first car was a 1980 BMW 320i. She got it in 2000. In 3 years of driving a 20+ year old BMW, guess how many problems she had with the car.

0. None. Zilch. Nada.

If you do your homework first and make sure the car was taken care of, a BMW is no less reliable than anything else on the road. It's just like my 944 Turbo. Yes, I've sunk a shit-ton of money in it on maintenance (thanks mainly to the 3 year/30,000 mile interval on the timing belt and to the replacement of the original clutch at 150,000 miles), but it has never left me stranded or needed any repair that wasn't age and mileage appropriate (e.g. replacing the original rubber brake lines after 20 years for peace of mind).

Just like any other machine, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

The difference is that scheduled maintenance is generally more intensive for European cars and the cars tend to be significantly less-tolerant of skipped maintenance. They do tend to cost more to maintain, but if one is conscientious, the premium is not anywhere near the amount that some people would claim.

The biggest issue with cars like BMWs and Mercedes is that people tend to buy them as status symbols and then just dispose of them after a couple of years. Maintenance, even by the original owners, is often indifferent at best. Then the second owner buys the car again as a status symbol without realising that, while the car was only a $20,000 car on the used lot, it still has maintenance requirements commensurate with a car that was $50,000+ when new so maintenance becomes even more spotty. By the time you're 5 or 6 years down the road, the car is suffering from a lack of proper maintenance and has depreciated further to where the potential buyers are even less likely to take good care of it. This is a self-stroking cycle and can get very bad.

ZV

 

[DivideBYZero]

That depends entirely on whether or not he would have done his homework when he bought the BMW.

My sister's first car was a 1980 BMW 320i. She got it in 2000. In 3 years of driving a 20+ year old BMW, guess how many problems she had with the car.

0. None. Zilch. Nada.

If you do your homework first and make sure the car was taken care of, a BMW is no less reliable than anything else on the road. It's just like my 944 Turbo. Yes, I've sunk a shit-ton of money in it on maintenance (thanks mainly to the 3 year/30,000 mile interval on the timing belt and to the replacement of the original clutch at 150,000 miles), but it has never left me stranded or needed any repair that wasn't age and mileage appropriate (e.g. replacing the original rubber brake lines after 20 years for peace of mind).

Just like any other machine, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

The difference is that scheduled maintenance is generally more intensive for European cars and the cars tend to be significantly less-tolerant of skipped maintenance. They do tend to cost more to maintain, but if one is conscientious, the premium is not anywhere near the amount that some people would claim.

The biggest issue with cars like BMWs and Mercedes is that people tend to buy them as status symbols and then just dispose of them after a couple of years. Maintenance, even by the original owners, is often indifferent at best. Then the second owner buys the car again as a status symbol without realising that, while the car was only a $20,000 car on the used lot, it still has maintenance requirements commensurate with a car that was $50,000+ when new so maintenance becomes even more spotty. By the time you're 5 or 6 years down the road, the car is suffering from a lack of proper maintenance and has depreciated further to where the potential buyers are even less likely to take good care of it. This is a self-stroking cycle and can get very bad.

ZV

This is mostly true, but newer BMW's now have pretty long service internals. Mine is ~15,000 miles dependant upon usage, some items are time related, like Brake Fluid, but that is the same no matter what you drive. Our E81 only needs servicing when it tells us, and then only the items that have worn significantly or who's time are up need servicing, lowering costs.

 

[Pantoot]

The new M3 doesn't even have an oil dipstick, everything is checked via sensors.

Mine doesn't have a dipstick either and I love it. Whats not to like about being able to check the oil without opening the hood...unless I am missing something?

 

[reallyscrued]

SSSnail, I think you're starting to understand my point. My friend also had a garage with a few E36s/E46s just laying around...literally. Windshields, motors on hoists, auto and manual transmissions lining the edge of the garage, wiring harnesses, fenders, even the smallest things you can imagine. If I didn't have him as a connection, I would've paid more to maintain the car.

The difference is that scheduled maintenance is generally more intensive for European cars and the cars tend to be significantly less-tolerant of skipped maintenance.

ZV

You hit the nail on the head there.

That depends entirely on whether or not he would have done his homework when he bought the BMW.

My sister's first car was a 1980 BMW 320i. She got it in 2000. In 3 years of driving a 20+ year old BMW, guess how many problems she had with the car.

0. None. Zilch. Nada.

And that's just one experience which I'm going to go out on a limb and call very lucky and good foresight from BMW AG in the 80s. Back then, cars were built to last. Even newly built cars straight from the factories have issues these days. The fact that your sister's E21 is so damn study is because the E21's and E30s are much more reliable than the 90's and up 3 series'.

And DivideByZero, the service intervals for BMWs now are longer because they changed how long the warranties are for. In fact, some fluids used to be called "lifetime fluids" but now they have 15, or 50/60 thousand mile change intervals. DiYers used to change those "lifetime fluids" regardless for keeping their automatic transmissions, power steering pumps, and brake master cylinders from taking a dump.

Some BMW dealers don't even flush your fluids after the 1,000 to 3,000 mile break in period anymore, they wait for the 15k oil change. When a transmission/motor is first built, the metal shavings that introduced into the oil and transmission fluid are very high (because it's brand new and not every part of the motor/trans is built exact to the micrometer). After the break in period, your oil/trans fluid would probably be more like a sandpaper-y paste than a lubricant, and its best to change it immediately, but it saves the dealer a little more money if they only see you once at the 15k interval than twice by that time.

 

[Zargon]

Mine doesn't have a dipstick either and I love it. Whats not to like about being able to check the oil without opening the hood...unless I am missing something?

thats great till the sensor fails, you get an oil leak, and the engine seizes.

the sensor is nice, my saturn astra has one, but it also has a dipstick so I can verify proper oil level

 

[SSSnail]

SSSnail, I think you're starting to understand my point. My friend also had a garage with a few E36s/E46s just laying around...literally. Windshields, motors on hoists, auto and manual transmissions lining the edge of the garage, wiring harnesses, fenders, even the smallest things you can imagine. If I didn't have him as a connection, I would've paid more to maintain the car.




You hit the nail on the head there.



And that's just one experience which I'm going to go out on a limb and call very lucky and good foresight from BMW AG in the 80s. Back then, cars were built to last. Even newly built cars straight from the factories have issues these days. The fact that your sister's E21 is so damn study is because the E21's and E30s are much more reliable than the 90's and up 3 series'.

And DivideByZero, the service intervals for BMWs now are longer because they changed how long the warranties are for. In fact, some fluids used to be called "lifetime fluids" but now they have 15, or 50/60 thousand mile change intervals. DiYers used to change those "lifetime fluids" regardless for keeping their automatic transmissions, power steering pumps, and brake master cylinders from taking a dump.

Some BMW dealers don't even flush your fluids after the 1,000 to 3,000 mile break in period anymore, they wait for the 15k oil change. When a transmission/motor is first built, the metal shavings that introduced into the oil and transmission fluid are very high (because it's brand new and not every part of the motor/trans is built exact to the micrometer). After the break in period, your oil/trans fluid would probably be more like a sandpaper-y paste than a lubricant, and its best to change it immediately, but it saves the dealer a little more money if they only see you once at the 15k interval than twice by that time.

Actually, no. My points is that a BMW isn't any less reliable than its counterparts, and that if maintain properly isn't going to break down because it just wants to like you want to believe. I forgot to ask you which condition you purchased yours in that you would think it will break everyday.

I'm fortunate that I know a lot of people with the means to fix my car should anything go wrong with it. Truth is I don't spend days in and out fixing it, I simply maintain it and I just do it a bit better than most because I always do that to any cars I own. Truth is, more things break on my 03 Accord in the same time frame of ownership than did the BMW, and parts weren't cheap either.

Like I said, the perception is that it's MORE expensive to maintain, which I offered plenty of evidence to the contrary. As far as DIY, it's far easier to work on than many other vehicle as well. Another thing is that when something break of other cars, usually it's silently fixed whereas if on a BMW, here comes the press because people have this ridiculous expectation that it should NEVER fail. It's not fair.

Granted that there are certain things I don't like about it (like the disintegrating drip rail rubber and quarter glass' - and I think it is partially my fault for probably leaving chemical residue on it), the whole experience is more than make up for it. People with BMWs I know spend less time in the shops than other makes as well, so it's not just an isolated coincidence. All these people purchased them new, maybe that's the difference.

Pantoot: I understand the increased reliability in sensors and electronics, but I'd much rather have something physical to check the simple fluids. In case the sensors don't work, you know, so you don't destroy an engine just because the sensor goes out and you chose to ignore the CEL like most people do.

Meh, the service intervals were extended because it's cheaper for them with their service warranty, and lubricant technologies have advanced tremendously. The belief that a lot of metal shavings are floating around inside an engine is somewhat false, because all of the new engines and transmissions have magnets collector at the bottom of the pans, and enough filters go to around.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Some BMW dealers don't even flush your fluids after the 1,000 to 3,000 mile break in period anymore, they wait for the 15k oil change. When a transmission/motor is first built, the metal shavings that introduced into the oil and transmission fluid are very high (because it's brand new and not every part of the motor/trans is built exact to the micrometer). After the break in period, your oil/trans fluid would probably be more like a sandpaper-y paste than a lubricant, and its best to change it immediately, but it saves the dealer a little more money if they only see you once at the 15k interval than twice by that time.

That may have been true in the 1960's, but today most engines are run in to at least some degree on an engine dyno at the factory. Even Honda and Toyota no longer require a fluid change at 1,000 miles anymore (hell, they don't even recommend it). Even if there really were that many metal shavings going into the oil in the first few thousand miles (which there simply aren't), the only way for the oil to end up as "a sandpaper-y paste" would be if you were running without an oil filter. Modern filters are more than capable of removing any debris that might be introduced into the oil during the break-in period.

ZV

 

[PhoKingGuy]

That may have been true in the 1960's, but today most engines are run in to at least some degree on an engine dyno at the factory. Even Honda and Toyota no longer require a fluid change at 1,000 miles anymore (hell, they don't even recommend it). Even if there really were that many metal shavings going into the oil in the first few thousand miles (which there simply aren't), the only way for the oil to end up as "a sandpaper-y paste" would be if you were running without an oil filter. Modern filters are more than capable of removing any debris that might be introduced into the oil during the break-in period.

ZV

Yup, My TDIs manual specifically says to not change the oil until 10k miles have passed.

 

[StageLeft]

Maybe I should have put "compare to other cars in its class"

I already did that for you with an Acura TL and G35 vs an entry 3 series; they are much cheaper to own based on figures from edmunds.

My points is that a BMW isn't any less reliable than its counterparts

And I showed how this is wrong. We all have uncles and brothers and cousins that owned God knows what and had who knows what experience, so I've actually brought out some objective numbers. And the numbers are not close. At this point the onus is on you to provide contradictory numbers. I'm going with edmunds on this.

Like I said, the perception is that it's MORE expensive to maintain, which I offered plenty of evidence to the contrary.

No you didn't. Evidence to satisfy your claims would be more than a great deal of anecdotes. This assumes that maintenance includes repairs (which it does in the context of this thread). Edmunds seemed to think the BMW's maintenance items were similar to counterparts. It's repairs that really screwed the owner.

For reference, the edmunds numbers are in post #67. As reallyscrued said, enjoy the car all you like but the plain and obvious reality is that BMWs have a more expensive cost of ownership than their immediate competion--at least for the 3 series. I have no idea how things are on the middle or upper end. I would bet that at least for the M5, though, a CTS-V is cheaper to keep on the road.

 

[SSSnail]

So, what "repairs" that Edmunds talk about that would have cost me ~$11K? So far, NOBODY I KNOW spent anywhere near that on repairs or maintenance on a 4-5 yrs old BMW. Simply, because the cars barely come off warranties, and haven't had any problems.

You said "based on figures on Edmunds", I'm telling you "based on figures by actual owners".

You said "I showed you how this is wrong", I offer you this thread.

A lot of your "assumptions" are based on what-ifs catastrophic failures, which I haven't yet seen. We all have our causes to support, mine is based on actual personal evidence and experience.

I fully understood that it is slightly more expensive to maintain, but it's not outrageous as compared to others or as people claimed (even econoboxes). But you know what? I am willing to pay just a bit more, because the driving experience is what I'm paying for.