Debt Limitapalooza 2023!

[quikah]

The debt ceiling legislation is unconstitutional as the constitution says congress MUST authorize borrowing, and it also says we must pay our debt. The ONLY purpose of the debt ceiling is so the Treasure doesn't have to go to congress every time it has to pay the bills, it has ZERO to do with the budget.

The constitution does not say congress MUST authorize borrowing, simply that is has the power to do it.
"The Congress shall have Power..."
"To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;"

 

[ivwshane]

The constitution does not say congress MUST authorize borrowing, simply that is has the power to do it.
"The Congress shall have Power..."
"To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;"

You ever read the 14th amendment? Tell me what section of it says you are wrong.

 

[IronWing]

Hate to break it to you but the general public would never take a 14th or coin solution over spending cuts. Those solutions are esoteric political moves, very few people would buy into that. Cutting spending is something everyone does when they are short of money.

Too late for spending cuts, the money has already been appropriated by Congress and the President is obligated by law to spend it. Emergency tax hikes might raise sufficient revenue to cover spending that Congress has mandated but with two weeks to go before a default, that would take a fast moving Congress. So raising or abolishing the debt ceiling are the only two options left that are implementable in the time remaining.

 

[fskimospy]

Here are the facts:
Clinton got the deficit to ZERO, this has been verified many times and verified by bipartisan sources. Bush ran the deficit up greatly. Obama kept it about equal, Trump raised it far more. Biden has yet to finish a term we can get back to this at a future date.
Facts are facts Republican leadership runs deficits.

Also we know exactly what Republicans will do next time they have power - a massive tax cut for rich people that will once again blow up the deficit. I would bet every dollar I own this is the case.

 

[fskimospy]

Hate to break it to you but the general public would never take a 14th or coin solution over spending cuts. Those solutions are esoteric political moves, very few people would buy into that. Cutting spending is something everyone does when they are short of money.

Nonsense. This is beltway brain works at work.

The public does not give a single solitary shit about parliamentary maneuvers or legalisms related to the coin or the 14th amendment. They care about their money and their jobs. Biden just says ‘they wanted to tank your retirement and get you laid off. I acted to stop that.’ Case closed.

Also the proper analogy for what you’re saying is that when you’re short on money you shouldn’t pay your bills.

 

[Pens1566]

Nonsense. This is beltway brain works at work.

The public does not give a single solitary shit about parliamentary maneuvers or legalisms related to the coin or the 14th amendment. They care about their money and their jobs. Biden just says ‘they wanted to tank your retirement and get you laid off. I acted to stop that.’ Case closed.

Also the proper analogy for what you’re saying is that when you’re short on money you shouldn’t pay your bills.

This ^. The gen pop just doesn't want interest rates to skyrocket (even more) and to not lose 30-40% of their 401k overnight while being laid off in mass #s.

They absolutely will not care what steps that Biden/Yellin take to avert it. They will care if they do nothing and let the terrorists win.

 

[MrSquished]

This ^. The gen pop just doesn't want interest rates to skyrocket (even more) and to not lose 30-40% of their 401k overnight while being laid off in mass #s.

They absolutely will not care what steps that Biden/Yellin take to avert it. They will care if they do nothing and let the terrorists win.

This is most likely correct and exactly why the Democrats should have handled this better and made the binary distinction between the two possible things that would happen, Don't let the Republicans become an entity that is negotiable with when they aren't. All they have to do is be consistent from the beginning, and with the 14th amendment and the coin.

But they fucked up

 

[zinfamous]

Hate to break it to you but the general public would never take a 14th or coin solution over spending cuts. Those solutions are esoteric political moves, very few people would buy into that. Cutting spending is something everyone does when they are short of money.

no one of substance cares about what the plebs think about things they don't understand. They only believe the lies they want to believe anyway, so it really doesn't matter how it is spun to them--they've been conditioned to listen only to those who own their brains.

 

[Jaskalas]

They absolutely will not care what steps that Biden/Yellin take to avert it. They will care if they do nothing and let the terrorists win.

And when Yellen attacks the very idea of stopping the Republicans from doing this.... sheer madness.

 

[Indus]

LOL

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659981945441230854

 

[MrSquished]

LOL

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659981945441230854

Who would have thunk it?

Fucking Biden better invoke the 14th or he is a fucking failure to have not been prepared for this, which he clearly isn't, since they fumbled the whole process so far

 

[Brainonska511]

I don't see how Biden messaging around the 14th Amendment is going to help here. Just let Republicans dig their own grave on this with their "negotiation" shenanigans, then come out with the solution of the 14th amendment or the coin at the right point.

Why give Republicans and the media something different to focus on beyond the current Republicans are insane and want to crash the economy story?

 

[IronWing]

LOL

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659981945441230854

This has been a trend since 1976 and the Dem leadership just noticed it?

 

[MrSquished]

I don't see how Biden messaging around the 14th Amendment is going to help here. Just let Republicans dig their own grave on this with their "negotiation" shenanigans, then come out with the solution of the 14th amendment or the coin at the right point.

Why give Republicans and the media something different to focus on beyond the current Republicans are insane and want to crash the economy story?

That's not what the media is focused on because Biden has let the process become a negotiation, which means they portrayed the GQP party as a party that is negotiable with, while mostly poo pooing the other options this whole time, and definitely not preparing the nation for using one of those two options.

It's amateur hour in the white house right now.

 

[sportage]

Come-on people. You want it.... you know you want it....
You want to see, we all want to see a full-on full-scale war between McCarthy's maga and Joe Biden's angels. The blood, the drama, the horrors of it all. You want to see a full-on default. You want to experience financial armageddon at least once in your life because after all, most of us weren't around back in 1929. I know I wasn't.

You want to see MTGreene squeal like a pig when she realizes what she has done, and what they the McCarthy maga mob has done. You want to see a broken MTG up there crying "I never thought THIS would happen". You want to see McCarthy brought to his knees and Greene chased thru the streets by her outraged constituents.
And you know what? I'd like to see that too. 😛

 

[Brainonska511]

That's not what the media is focused on because Biden has let the process become a negotiation, which means they portrayed the GQP party as a party that is negotiable with, while mostly poo pooing the other options this whole time, and definitely not preparing the nation for using one of those two options.

It's amateur hour in the white house right now.

Seeing plenty of articles that show Republicans as a fractured caucus, such as the Freedom members demanding that they walk away from negotiating or feeling like they did their part by passing a turd of a bill. And it's clearly coming across that the GOP wants to cut across the board spending, so lots of free Democratic campaign messages about how the GOP wants to take your social security and other :insert popular programs here:. Plus, you don't seem to really give credit about how stupid the American public is and it's desire for bargaining and bipartisanship, even though those things can be useless or not inherently good. If Biden doesn't "talk", or at least appear to play the dance, it probably hurts him overall.

Finally, the coin and the 14th amendment are going to be trump cards that can only be done at the right moment. Play it too soon, and you might find the GOP finding a friendly judge to shut those things down before they can serve as the financial backstops they need to be. Or watch as the real messaging gets swamped with rhetoric about the lawless president, yadayadayada.

 

[NWRMidnight]

The constitution does not say congress MUST authorize borrowing, simply that is has the power to do it.
"The Congress shall have Power..."
"To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;"

All though you quoted the first part of the first sentence of section 4 of the 14th amendment, in one of your previous responses, you must not have read beyond that. Or, you don't understand what it is telling you.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Also we know exactly what Republicans will do next time they have power - a massive tax cut for rich people that will once again blow up the deficit. I would bet every dollar I own this is the case.

Non of this is directed to you fskimospy because you will understand what I am going to say:

I really don't think many people understand that budgets are primarily based on long term spending, that revolves around mandatory spending and estimated future revenue. So when the Republican's come in and do massive tax cuts for the Rich, the impact is felt for years past their reign of power.

As these dumbasses who keep screaming "we need to cut spending", also keep voting in republican's who work to keep wages down, refuse to pay livable wages, refuse to increase the minimum wage, who fights for poverty level wages, etc, which is why wages have been relatively stagnate for decades. Which is causing the middle class to shrink, and the lower income/poor to increase, where millions can't even afford basic needs like food, shelter, clothing. They fight for corporate welfare, and handouts.. and fight for anything for the citizens that don't benefit the rich. But non of them understand what that means for the Federal government's revenue which is primarily from taxes, and their financial obligations. The financial burden of the Nation's financial obligations, increases every year. I am not talking about new debt, I am talking about the financial burden of mandatory spending alone. Yet, because of the above, the nations revenue doesn't keep up with the increases, it is actually shrinking in comparison because they keep giving tax breaks to the rich and corporations, keep wages stagnant, which means their tax revenue from the rich and corporations go down, and the tax revenue from the working people also stays stagnant as well.

All though National spending/debt is different than the citizen's spending/debt, what happens when the public's income shrinks to the point they can't afford their financial obligations? What's expected from us? To go get a second job, or to get a better paying job, etc. We don't purposely go get a lower paying job and cut our income even more. Yet, that is what the Republican's solution seems to be. Reduce and shrink revenue for the Federal government and then cry about spending. We are at the point that either we are going to go bankrupt as a nation at some point, because this is not a sustainable. Or they have to stop giving tax breaks to the rich/corporations, stop the corporate welfare, and stop doing things that keep wages stagnant, and rebuild the middle class so revenue increases to the level where we no longer need to take on debt, and we can start paying down our debt. But until that happens, all we can do is borrow, borrow, borrow to replace the continuous, increasing lost revenue. There is no amount of spending cuts that can keep up with the continuous loss in revenue.

 

[MrSquished]

Seeing plenty of articles that show Republicans as a fractured caucus, such as the Freedom members demanding that they walk away from negotiating or feeling like they did their part by passing a turd of a bill. And it's clearly coming across that the GOP wants to cut across the board spending, so lots of free Democratic campaign messages about how the GOP wants to take your social security and other :insert popular programs here:. Plus, you don't seem to really give credit about how stupid the American public is and it's desire for bargaining and bipartisanship, even though those things can be useless or not inherently good. If Biden doesn't "talk", or at least appear to play the dance, it probably hurts him overall.

Finally, the coin and the 14th amendment are going to be trump cards that can only be done at the right moment. Play it too soon, and you might find the GOP finding a friendly judge to shut those things down before they can serve as the financial backstops they need to be. Or watch as the real messaging gets swamped with rhetoric about the lawless president, yadayadayada.

I don't know how to make this more simple but the debt ceiling should never be a negotiation. They should have painted the Republicans is unreasonable this entire time. Setting the narrative and setting the stage for doing one of the two things that have to be done.

The fact you can't see this is a smarter play than this cluster fuck we're in now is pretty fucking sad.

Instead of making the Republicans in this situation out to be a negotiable one you should have set the stage for what it really was this whole time. They had all the time in the world to do it. And if they prepared the country and the world for these extraordinary measures better it wouldn't be such a crazy thing when it happens. Everything will be better with more stability and a clean buildup to this.

They did it all wrong and I don't know how else to put it but it's a fucking cluster fuck thank you Biden

 

[MrSquished]

It's pretty funny that people can't accept that controlling the narrative is a plus it's a bonus it's the way to go, It's a big advant, It's a huge get for your team, whatever you want to call it. It really can't get simpler than that.

People are arguing with me about wasting the chance to control a narrative for a very serious situation. Which would also set the stage for what has to be done in a much better more methodical way. That is only good for the world economy and ours.

 

[K1052]

The WH should have more seriously messaged that there are options besides congress acting instead of doing the opposite for months. Because odds are they're going to have to make use of those options. Most of the public isn't paying attention anyway right now so not entirely sure how much it matters.

 

[NWRMidnight]

This is most likely correct and exactly why the Democrats should have handled this better and made the binary distinction between the two possible things that would happen, Don't let the Republicans become an entity that is negotiable with when they aren't. All they have to do is be consistent from the beginning, and with the 14th amendment and the coin.

But they fucked up

You still don't get it!!! You are still all about the message.. the message doesn't fucking matter! all that matters is the end result, as most of the general population runs on feels based on how it impacts them, at that moment. Not how we got there or comprehension of the actual facts. All the message will do, is change the right's talking points, it won't change anything else. The end result hasn't happened yet.. we are about 1 1/2 weeks to 2 weeks away from that. And no matter how this plays out, even if the Democrats did as you say, it won't change a fucking thing, the idiots will still vote red, against their own best interests because non of them are smart enough to look how their choices are impacting them over the long term. The facts are already out there.. yet, they still want to blame democrats for everything that goes wrong with this country... are you turning into one of them?

 

[MrSquished]

You still don't get it!!! You are still all about the message.. the message doesn't fucking matter! all that matters is the end result, as most of the general population runs on feels based on how it impacts them, at that moment. Not how we got there or comprehension of the actual facts. All the message will do, is change the right's talking points, it won't change anything else. The end result hasn't happened yet.. we are about 1 1/2 weeks to 2 weeks away from that. And no matter how this plays out, even if the Democrats did as you say, it won't change a fucking thing, the idiots will still vote red, against their own best interests because non of them are smart enough to look how their choices are impacting them over the long term. The facts are already out there.. yet, they still want to blame democrats for everything that goes wrong with this country... are you turning into one of them?

You are a fucking moron. How do you think end results happen and go over better and more successfully?

How the fuck do you think political power is won and exercised in this country? Any of it have to do with a message and consistent and correct messaging? How do great big decisions and great big events happen, no messaging? Every single fucking thing progressives have fought for the last century has been partially done through excellent messaging.

Dude. You are clueless to how the world works. Like fucking oblivious.

As I have stated a million times, the republicans are evil horrific people. But the Dems in power are fumbling around like morons and don't know how to deal with it.

 

[DaaQ]

Non of this is directed to you fskimospy because you will understand what I am going to say:

I really don't think many people understand that budgets are primarily based on long term spending, that revolves around mandatory spending and estimated future revenue. So when the Republican's come in and do massive tax cuts for the Rich, the impact is felt for years past their reign of power.

As these dumbasses who keep screaming "we need to cut spending", also keep voting in republican's who work to keep wages down, refuse to pay livable wages, refuse to increase the minimum wage, who fights for poverty level wages, etc, which is why wages have been relatively stagnate for decades. Which is causing the middle class to shrink, and the lower income/poor to increase, where millions can't even afford basic needs like food, shelter, clothing. They fight for corporate welfare, and handouts.. and fight for anything for the citizens that don't benefit the rich. But non of them understand what that means for the Federal government's revenue which is primarily from taxes, and their financial obligations. The financial burden of the Nation's financial obligations, increases every year. I am not talking about new debt, I am talking about the financial burden of mandatory spending alone. Yet, because of the above, the nations revenue doesn't keep up with the increases, it is actually shrinking in comparison because they keep giving tax breaks to the rich and corporations, keep wages stagnant, which means their tax revenue from the rich and corporations go down, and the tax revenue from the working people also stays stagnant as well.

All though National spending/debt is different than the citizen's spending/debt, what happens when the public's income shrinks to the point they can't afford their financial obligations? What's expected from us? To go get a second job, or to get a better paying job, etc. We don't purposely go get a lower paying job and cut our income even more. Yet, that is what the Republican's solution seems to be. Reduce and shrink revenue for the Federal government and then cry about spending. We are at the point that either we are going to go bankrupt as a nation at some point, because this is not a sustainable. Or they have to stop giving tax breaks to the rich/corporations, stop the corporate welfare, and stop doing things that keep wages stagnant, and rebuild the middle class so revenue increases to the level where we no longer need to take on debt, and we can start paying down our debt. But until that happens, all we can do is borrow, borrow, borrow to replace the continuous, increasing lost revenue. There is no amount of spending cuts that can keep up with the continuous loss in revenue.

Believe it or not, I have worked with people who would refuse to work overtime for the simple fact they did not want to pay more in taxes at the end of the year.
These are all self proclaimed Repubs also.

I don't know how to make this more simple but the debt ceiling should never be a negotiation. They should have painted the Republicans is unreasonable this entire time. Setting the narrative and setting the stage for doing one of the two things that have to be done.

The fact you can't see this is a smarter play than this cluster fuck we're in now is pretty fucking sad.

Instead of making the Republicans in this situation out to be a negotiable one you should have set the stage for what it really was this whole time. They had all the time in the world to do it. And if they prepared the country and the world for these extraordinary measures better it wouldn't be such a crazy thing when it happens. Everything will be better with more stability and a clean buildup to this.

They did it all wrong and I don't know how else to put it but it's a fucking cluster fuck thank you Biden

You keep going on about messaging this, messaging that, when non of the people that NEED to see this messaging will NEVER see such messaging because they refuse to listen to or turn on such stations that would supply them with said messaging.

So the messaging is something YOU would like to hear yourself.

Idea, run for office and message away.

 

[MrSquished]

Believe it or not, I have worked with people who would refuse to work overtime for the simple fact they did not want to pay more in taxes at the end of the year.
These are all self proclaimed Repubs also.



You keep going on about messaging this, messaging that, when non of the people that NEED to see this messaging will NEVER see such messaging because they refuse to listen to or turn on such stations that would supply them with said messaging.

So the messaging is something YOU would like to hear yourself.

Idea, run for office and message away.

Where the fuck did I imply the messaging is needed to talk to MAGA fascist horrible people? Can you keep up please?