debating a topic...(relevance of grammar when arguing against an idea?)

[DaLeroy]

Is it just me, or is pamchenko's use of the word 'chk' instead of 'check' really annoying? 🙁

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<I have no idea where you learned to talk like you did.>>

My mother is a reading teacher (Elementary), and she is quite well read. As a consequence I was always strongly encouraged to read, especially the &quot;classics&quot; of Western literature. I think I picked up a lot of my speech from having read so many books written in slightly archaic English. I also have a grandmother who, for one reason or another, is a fairly strict gramarian. I don't mean to give the impression that this was all &quot;beaten into me&quot;, it is just that it is the majority of what I was exposed to in my younger years. Other parents read their kids books by Dr. Seuss (who is a genius by the way); my parents read to me from Kenneth Grame's The Wind In The Willows. I think my 10th grade English teacher had a lot to do with it as well, he would take off points for forgetting a comma in a citation so fast your head would spin.

<<Articulate ppl are usually brighter and stuff blah blah>>

Oh how I wish that were so. 🙂

Zenmervolt

EDIT: I like the word &quot;insufferable&quot;, and it meant exactly what I was thinking. It was the best word for the situation. I can understand the negative association that you make with it, but I still like it and I'm not about to change it. 😉

 

[Passions]

You all need to chill out and get off his back. I am sick of you all crying and clamouring for pamchekno to be banned. So what if he insulted Zippy, step outside and smell the roses. It happens all the time, the world is not a pretty place. You just don't go around crying to lock threads and ban people because of it. *snort*

 

[hzl eyed grl]

<< If what you have to say is important, it's important enough to make sure your ideas are understood. Making a slip of a verb tense or spelling error is one thing, but a post riddled with grammatical errors and run-on sentences is a bother, and it tells me that the author's thoughts aren't worth spending time to understand. >>


My thoughts exactly. Not to say that I never make mistakes, of course. But, we are on the internet. The way we are communicating here is through written text. If you want your opinion to at least &quot;appear&quot; valid, then in my mind it should look that way. (Meaning, you don't want it to look like a 5-year-old just got on your computer and wrote it for you.)

 

[pamchenko]

haha I never read. My sister is very well read, but she isn't as half as articulate as you are. She &quot;keeps it real&quot; too. Can you imagine a sorority girl talking like how u do? Speaking like you write is not a natural consequence of how much you've read. If you want to talk like that, more power to you. I'm just saying that some ppl upon first impression may think that you are a pretentious or snotty person.
Thing is, after one semester, I came home and a friend of mine at Harvard was like &quot;peter, what happened, you talk so poorly now? You're talking so black.&quot;
haha. that's harvard for you. I guess I forgot to change speech patterns to make him feel more comfortable...not being sarcastic here...i think by changing your pattern of speech in certain situations it can lead to more effective communication.
When you write really well like you do on a msg board, it is a positive thing though and I respect that.
I just don't thk it should count against you if you don't write as well. Ideas are ideas as long as they are logical and organized. Presentation ofcourse factors in, but in the end, it should be the ideas that are challenged and not the presentation.

hehe I've never had anyone complain about &quot;chk&quot;...

 

[pamchenko]

hzl_eyed_girl, what's your impression of the way I talk on this msg board? is it acceptable? or is it so poor that it distracts you from what I'm writing?
sure I've read through papers in creative writing class and if a paper is littered with errors, I'll get distracted and become biased right away. However, like you sed, this is the internet, and I thk this is the natural way to talk on the internet, that is being part of the AOL generation.

 

[happykitten]

Hey, Peter... nice page!! Cat and Jess are at &quot;The Peak&quot; in Hong Kong in this picture, aren't they? I spent this past summer chilling/shopping/raving/eating there... I miss it (and all my friends over there who are at U of M and Cornell now) sooooo much...

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/pkh2/peter/photo.htm

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<should be the ideas that are challenged and not the presentation.>>

I could not agree more. I try not to comment on a person's grammar or writing method unless they make errors while flaming someone else for making errors. Of course you did ask for opinions about whether proper grammar was necessary on the internet, and I stand by my position that it aids the clarity of the post to at least a small degree. As for picking up the dialect of those around you, that does happen to me, but usually only when I am around certain friends. For example, I have a good friend who is very much a &quot;man's man&quot; (in the heterosexual way), and I will find myself talking with him about how &quot;the goddam cable went out last night. I wish those sons of bitches down at AT&amp;T would get their F-ing act together.&quot; I have found that it is very important to turn off that manner of speech, lest you accidentally call a (platonic) girlfriend a &quot;lucky bastard&quot; to her face. :Q When I went to Buckeye Boys State, I roomed with a boy from Southern Ohio and after the nine days were over I had a slight drawl. It disappeared in about an hour of talking with my family though. For the record, I rather like &quot;chk&quot;, it reminds me of many happy hours checking my hard disk drive for errors at the prompt in DOS 6.22. 🙂

Zenmervolt

 

[somethingwitty]

Personally, I don't put too much stock in grammar or punctuation online. I forget apostrophies all the time, and I sometimes don't capitalize my &quot;I's&quot;. I've had very little, if any, difficulty understanding what pamchenko is trying to say.

However, as I said in the other thread, I have an issue with what you actually say. Obviously, I dont know you personally. I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt, that &quot;in real life&quot; they are worth getting to know. That being said-the first time I read a post of yours was when you called zippy a &quot;retard&quot; (please stop claiming you did nothing to him-you clearly intended to call him a retard, and there is no way grammatically to claim that you were trying to say his poem was retarded). After that, I noticed some of your other posts-many of which came off in a rather misogynist (sp?) manner. Analyzing relationships between men and women is one thing-but I felt that some of your comments about ALL women were inaccurate and innappropriate. So, even though you may be a great guy in person, your online persona, for lack of a better word, sucks.

In reply to your last post (as of when I'm typing this, anyways)-I found the idea of &quot;keeping it real&quot; and your story with your friend from harvard interesting...Hard to explain why-though it probably relates to the fact that I enjoy college, where the topics of conversation range from politics to computers, much more than high school, with frequent topics relating to farting, which, I guess unlike many people in my high school, I did not enjoy. Nevertheless, I would point out that (as you said) effective communication can be achieved by changing speech patterns-you may want to give the members of AT some credit in that regard. Obviously, it wont/shouldnt count against you if you choose not to-but it couldnt hurt, and you would probably find more people responding to your ideas if you changed a little.



<< If you want to talk like that, more power to you. I'm just saying that some ppl upon first impression may think that you are a pretentious or snotty person. >>



I don't think thats right-and I certainly hope not. Especially seeing as how they'd be basing this impression on an online persona.



<< haha. that's harvard for you. >>



Yeah, Harvard and Princeton (😉). I'm sure you've heard the joke about ending a sentence with the word &quot;at&quot;, and the subsequent change? I'd add cornell to that list, but, you know, getting snowed-in in Ithica year round is enough 🙂

 

[pamchenko]

harhar somethingwitty...though it snows alot here, at least I'm not shot at...haha upenn. anyways, regarding zippy, think whatever you want, read the poem he wrote, and let me know what you think of it.
most of my posts regarding guys/girls, they come out of bitterness, born out of observation and life experience. I have yet to hear a girl on this forum say...&quot;peter, you're wrong, as a girl, I don't like guys for their appearance and if a guy was nice enough to me, I'd like him back too, and not just as friends.&quot;
you prolly have had better luck with girls than me, so there is no frustration on your part...your life experiences have made you more optimistic/postive about women. All i see is poo.
nothing i have posted has suggested i'm a nice guy. I just want to make a pt, and defend it. I'm not looking to win the approval of ppl on the msg board. then again, keep in mind I'm not purposely trying to make enemies here...perhaps I'm just looking for ppl to tell me otherwise because right now, it really looks like all poo.
oh btw, pm me that joke about harvard 🙂

 

[somethingwitty]

Hey, I havent been shot or mugged yet. woohoo! (might as well keep a sense of humor about the &quot;ghetto&quot; image-it's kind of hard to deny). I hear cornell is pretty high up in suicide rates, though 😉

I read his poem when he initially posted it. It would not have been my approach, but, as I said, that does not warrant the initial namecalling.

As for the whole luck with girls/looks issue: I personally believe that if you like someone's (this goes both ways) personality you will naturally overlook a problem with their physical looks. I'd feel pretty safe stating that this has (or could be) proven scientifically. I'd say that you won't find too many (if any) girls that will tell you outright that they can overlook looks for personality, but those that can (case by case basis), will-without telling you that they think you are ugly but love your personality.

I haven't had a steady GF followed by any sort of breakup, so that may affect my outlook-but, put simply, I believe that the right girl is out there for everyone (or, at least for me 🙂) , and that girl can and will overlook any poor traits (physical or characteristics) that the man has.



<< I'm not looking to win the approval of ppl on the msg board. then again, keep in mind I'm not purposely trying to make enemies here >>



As far as I'm concerned, that's the right attitude-you shouldn't adjust opinions to appease others. That being said, however, there is still a fine line that must be walked. Some opinions, even though they dont have to be changed, should not be stated. It seems odd to say (type) that, but I'd say it makes sense (sort of).

I don't believe I've noticed any of your posts relating to topics other than relationships, so I will, for now, assume that this is a single sore issue for you-and that your other posts can be a bit less antagonistic.

A general point to anyone still reading on: The Mods here havent locked his thread, threatened to ban him, or banned him-draw your own conclusion from that (and no, this is not an attempt to actually get him banned).

 

[Engine]

Sorry, I'm late to the &quot;Responding to Zenmervolt's nice post&quot; party. Nice post, by the way. 😛 I guess what came off as pretentious to me was the combination of your original post in this topic and a brief look at the webpage in your profile. To me, anyone who goes so far as to make a webpage full of &quot;Rants&quot; for their &quot;fans&quot; is a little full of themselves. But hey, maybe that's my hangup. People like Jim Rome and Howard Stern irk me to no end, but other people love them. Maybe you have a good future in talk radio 😉

Anyway, I guess I'm more Stephen King guy than a Kenneth Grame guy. Call me simple - you'd be right 🙂

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<To me, anyone who goes so far as to make a webpage full of &quot;Rants&quot; for their &quot;fans&quot; is a little full of themselves. But hey, maybe that's my hangup. People like Jim Rome and Howard Stern irk me to no end, but other people love them. Maybe you have a good future in talk radio>>

I have fans? 😕 The index page of my website was suposed to be a mild parody of a DJ, I certainly have no illusion of having a fan base. The first line, &quot;Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends.&quot; was lifted from the song &quot;Carnival #9&quot; by a band whose name I can't remember. I just thought it was a funny way to start off a website. As for the 'Rants' page, it's just a bunch of short almost-essays that I write mainly for the purpose of blowing off a little steam. Part of the reason for calling them 'Rants' was the phrase &quot;rantings of a madman&quot;, to me a rant is someone going off the deep end for a time, and that is exactly what I'm doing in the 'Rants' section. Hence my naming the section 'Rants'. According to my counter, the vast majority of the site's hits (around 80%) come from my old high school friends, which is pretty much what I expected and intended when I came up with the idea for the page.

About talk radio; oh dear God no. Good ol' Howie Stern is second on my sh!t list only to &quot;Dr.&quot; Laura. Stephen King has some great novels out. I loved The Shining, Storm of the Century, and The Shawshank Redemprion. Christine was also good, but I think I liked the '58 Plymouth Fury more than the book. 🙂

Zenmervolt

 

[pamchenko]

ok, lets get back on topic for anyone that HAS NOT POSTED yet... 🙂
seems that many ppl in fact value grammar in posts ... however, is it a good way to reply to someone's argument by attacking their grammar instead of ideas?

 

[AndrewR]

The use of proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization should be required when conveying ideas, especially when the subject matter is up for debate. Why? The lack of those three items can, and does, cripple one's views and opinions by making their presentation difficult to comprehend. Certainly, the goal is to convey information for understanding, but the English language in and of itself was formulated, along with the other languages of course, to effectuate that purpose. By ignoring its conventions, many of which are in place to make order from chaos, you disrupt the flow of your ideas and hamper your opinion.

Frankly, to me, it's a sign of laziness. Minor errors here or there really don't concern me so much as blatant disregard for any sort of form in a post. If you do not take the time to organize your thoughts, why should I take the time to read them? Since time is precious to everyone, it boils down to a form of selfishness -- your time is too important to spend organizing your thoughts into coherent sentences, but your thoughts are worth MY time in deciphering what you have written. Interesting.

By the way, saying that Zemnervolt has failed to communicate, or some such nonsense, because he has used a common English word that is beyond your comprehension is amazingly funny. May I suggest that you keep a copy of a dictionary at hand? It might avoid such embarrassing incidents in the future.

 

[pamchenko]

andrewr, I think you don't mean to be condescending and pretentious, but your tone sure as heck comes across as that.

&quot;amazingly funny&quot; - who sez that?! you're prolly thinking &quot;pamchenko is into cliched language I guess&quot;



<< It might avoid such embarrassing incidents in the future. >>

I wasn't embarrassed at all by it. Let me guess, someone as condescending as you are prolly think...pamchenko is too stupid to know when he should be embarrassed. thing is, Zen understands that his proper english isn't that common...Many people could have made the same mistake I did. Does that mean if most people are stupid, then I don't hafta strive to be smarter? Not at all. What I'm saying is that I don't think it is a big deal.
So many of the ppl on this msg board type like I do while you are one of the few that writes well. Reading your post, do you think everyone else is sloppy, lazy and essentially, less of a person than you are? That's the root of your condescending personality.
I am totally cool with Zen as his communication, though different, is not tainted with &quot;asshole&quot; in it.

 

[hzl eyed grl]

<< hzl_eyed_girl, what's your impression of the way I talk on this msg board? is it acceptable? or is it so poor that it distracts you from what I'm writing? >>


In all honesty, pamchenko, I haven't read a lot of your posts to formulate an opinion. I think in just everyday conversation on the internet our &quot;slang&quot; is just fine. And, for most of what we do here it's fine. I just think that when you are disscussing something that you are really trying to make a valid point on, you would want it to look as good as possible. That's my opinion, of course.



<< however, is it a good way to reply to someone's argument by attacking their grammar instead of ideas? >>


No, it's not. Their grammar doesn't have anything to do with their argument....Unless you're arguing about grammar. 😕 😛 Heehee