debating a topic...(relevance of grammar when arguing against an idea?)

[Engine]

Personally, I'm all for using correct grammar and punctuation. It all comes down to presenting your idea in a clear manner. When I read a post where the poster uses little or no punctuation, has constant run-ons, etc., I find it much more difficult to read than a post where the person takes the time to use correct grammar and punctuation.

I disagree that the presentation of an idea is not relevant to the issue being debated. The way you package an idea is every bit as important as the idea itself, IMO. It's the same situation when a well thought-out idea is packaged inside a flame, or inside a post that deliberately tries to anger people. All the crap around the idea detracts from the validity of the idea. This happens a lot in religious discussions on this board, where people have well thought-out ideas but can't resist the urge to post the ideas in a manner which insults or angers the opposing viewpoint.

That's not to say that I'm immune to the occasional typo or grammar mistake, because I certainly am. I just think that it's important to convey my ideas in as clear a manner as possible, and part of that includes making sure that I use the correct grammar and punctuation.

 

[pamchenko]

benefits I see of grammar/spell/proofread material:
1) gives poster a chance to chk his ideas for inconsistencies
2) minimizes ambiguity
3) for those unfamiliar with internet acronyms, makes the material more readable.
4) effectively prevents ignorant repliers who have no argument from taking your thread into a flame war

drawbacks of going through everything for grammar/spelling:
1) free flowing verse is sure as hell more fun than proofreading, and I'm only here on OT to have fun.
2) grammar isn't the key, the strength of my argument is so there is less motivation to chk grammar/spelling
3) even with bad grammar/spelling, the idea is usually still conveyed.

 

[RaDragon]

Dear pamchenko

----------------------------------------------------------------------
start flame

Dear:
[ ] Clueless Newbie
[ ] Lamer
[ ] AOLer
[ ] Me too er
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Nerd
[ ] Elvis
[ ] Fed
[ ] Freak
[ ] Scientologist
[X] Grammatically-challenged Lamer


You Are Being Flamed Because:
[ ] You posted a binary in a discussion group
[ ] You posted something asking for ftp sites
[ ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
[X] You continued a long, stupid thread
[X] You started an off-topic thread
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[ ] You said "me too" to something
[ ] You suck
[ ] You posted your entire message in CAPS
[ ] You brag about things that never happened
[ ] Your sig/alias/server sucks
[ ] You made up slang then used it in a message
[ ] You posted a phone-sex ad
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] I think you might be a fed


To Repent, You Must:

[ ] Be the PR guy for Canter & Siegel
[ ] Give up your AOL account
[ ] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[X] Accept the fact that people can post great arguments without grammatical errors
[ ] Actually post the truth
[ ] Read the FAQ
[ ] Be Senator Exon's love slave
[ ] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month


In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] Blow me
[ ] Get a life
[ ] Never post again
[X] I pity your dog
[ ] Go to hell
[ ] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...
[ ] Take your crap somewhere else
[ ] Quit posting till you figure it out
[ ] All of the above

end flame
----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[pamchenko]

gosh I need to chill out b4 the edit i was mad at radragon but its just that so many ppl have flamed me for real.

 

[luv2chill]

Gotta love the form flame...

l2c

 

[Zenmervolt]

Using proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization is, in fact, of great import. I will say that punctuation and capitalization are the more important of the three however. Written language is harder to decipher than spoken language because one does not have the aids of vocal intonation and facial expression, both of which are vital to understanding the proper connotation of a stranger's speach. Without capitalization and proper punctuation ideas run into each other and at best your true intent is clouded and vague. I generally read a book at a rate of one page per minute, but posts without proper punctuation and capitalization, like your initial post in this thread, seriously slow down the rate at which I read because I am forced to interpret someone else's garbled shorthand. Having said that much, I do, on occasion, omit capitalization and punctuation. Of course, those omissions only take place when on ICQ with an old friend who knows me well enough that he can interpret my meaning without the aid of punctuation. In a forum in which people who do not know me well will see my responses, I try to be as clear as I am cabable of being. In that way I am more secure that my posts will not be mis-interpreted. Finally, I have a prejudice against not using punctuation and capitalization because it reminds me of my 16 year old sister who thinks AOL is the internet and routeinly sends me E-mails in which periods only come in groups of three or more and also in which any word over five letters is somehow compressed into a hardly recognizeable abbreviation. I do hope that this clears up some of the mystery. What follows is only slightly off topic; has anyone else noticed that the proper use of the elipses ("...&quot has been completely forgotten by the majority of people? The proper use of elipses is to denote that you have left out a section in a quotation (ie. "blah blah blah...yackity yackity yackity&quot, and the elipses have no other legitimate use. The hyphen is properly used to indicate the pause that is commonly dealt with by using the elipses.

Zenmervolt

 

[pamchenko]

I was borne into the AOL culture so I have the AOL voice. I'm not one of those people who have a problem with AOL because they were more or less my first ISP.


<< Using proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization is, in fact, of great import. >>


I read this and stumbled at the last word, import which means to bring something in right? After re-reading and wasting all of 1 sec, I see you abreviated importance. It only takes 1 sec to reread something and from now on, I'll be more aware that import can mean importance...its all about adapting instead of trying to get everyone to type/converse in a tedious/unfun manner. and i abuse the ellipsis like a rental car...while I hit those stupid dots, I'm gathering thoughts...my hs english teacher would rescind her recommendation if she caught me doing this kind of stuff! (unnecessary punctuation for emphasis)

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<I see you abreviated importance>>

I did no such thing. The phrase &quot;of great import&quot; is quite common in proper English, though it is little used in more modern conversational English. Once again, even though the meaning is the same in that particular context, &quot;import&quot; is not an abbreviation of &quot;importance&quot;.

From my 1968 Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language:
&quot;import v.i. to be of importance; matter. n. ... 3. meaning; signification.&quot;

Regarding the anti-AOL stance, AOL was my initial ISP as well. I have since outgrown it, as have most people whose use of the internet extends beyond that of recreation. Regardless of whether or not AOL is a good ISP, there is still the perception that its user base is composed mainly of persons who know next to nothing about the internet. Right or wrong, an association with AOL is not generally percieved as a compliment.

Zenmervolt

 

[Zenmervolt]

Double post.

 

[pamchenko]

<< The phrase &quot;of great import&quot; is quite common in proper English, though it is little used in more modern conversational English >>

the key to communication is conveying your ideas, not looking smarter than who you're trying to converse with. while import in that context may be common to you, I didn't know i could use it like that. You could have effectively failed to communicate with me. Is it my responsibility really to know that import could be used like that?

regarding AOL, its like Dell / Gateway to me. Alot of those people don't anything about computers, but do I feel superior to them in any way? No. because that would accomplish nothing. Just because someone uses netzero, does it mean, they're poor and can't afford high speed internet? No. So you see how generalizing about a population is dangerous?

anyways, PM me if u wanna go talk about AOL...but lets keep this thread on grammar in threads.

 

[ltk007]

RaDragon, you forgot to fill out one little part

[X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor

 

[Zenmervolt]

Personally, I use the phrase &quot;of great import&quot; a lot in normal conversation, and I didn't think twice about using it. I suppose that is one of the ways in which meaning can be misconstrued when the printed word is the only medium available. My friends don't even blink when I talk in that manner, but then again most of my friends are accustomed to the fact that I generally act as though I am 40 and my idiosyncacies pass unnoticed. A person who is able to use the language properly makes a much better impression on people, one would do well to remember that the cover sometimes makes the book. Fair or not, that is they way things are.

<<Is it my responsibility really to know that import could be used like that?>>

Yes, actually, it is. That, however, is neither here nor there. The benefits of having a well developed vocabulary and understanding of the language of your country are not really germane to this thread, as the topic is grammar and punctuation, not vocabulary.

Zenmervolt

 

[pamchenko]

i dunno, I chked out your webpage, your a college student? and frends say you act 40? to me, that's pretentious .... I keep it real.

 

[Engine]

pamchenko: Heh. While I generally disagree with most of what you say, I think you're dead on on your last post.

 

[Zoltar]

Pam,

By the sheer nature of your threads, I see you like nothing better than to massdebate.

 

[pamchenko]

puns aren't funny. and you're not clever.

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<your a college student? and frends say you act 40? to me, that's pretentious .... I keep it real.>>

I generally picture pretentiousness as having one's actions motivated by a desire to appear superior to others. Consciously, at least, I am not in any way seeking to appear superior. I don't come off quite so uptight in person, and I certainly would not have thought that I'd come off as pretentious on my website. Regardless, I only speak and write the way I do because I like the words I use. I love it when I can find a single word that expresses exactly what I'm thinking. (Yes, my life is that boring. Sue me.) I like the English language and I am proficient with it, so I use it. There is nothing more to my manner of speech than that. If I appear to be a stuffed-shirt, then that is a perception problem on your part. As for &quot;keeping it real&quot;, I do. For me to speak in any other manner would be false, as I genuinely think in the same manner as I speak. Just as it would not be &quot;real&quot; for you to speak as I do, it would not be &quot;real&quot; for me to speak in the same manner as you do. I'll continue to maintain King's English because I like it and because I think English can be beautiful and expressive when one takes the time to find just the right way to say something. You are free to continue using the modern American dialect if you think it to be superior to King's English.

Zenmervolt

 

[hippy]

Damn! I wish I knew another language besides &quot;English&quot;... then Maybe I could come up with another word posibaly other than anal-retentive(is that a word?), but after readin this here thread, I can't cuz it just won't stop bangin around in my head.

It huuuuuurts... make it stop please!

 

[hippy]

Oh Crap! Where did i put that dickionary?

 

[eakers]

i dont bother with grammer, i barely put in 's half the time.
i dont really care either, its quite obvious that the thought im trying to convey is much more important than the method i choose to convey it.

quite frankly what you said was uncalled for. often it's difficult for ppl to share their writting because its a small piece of them and so strongly critizing their work is like critizing them as a person.

*kat. <-- stops at you and yells: &quot;way to breath no breath&quot;

 

[bobtist]

Great post, Aaron.

 

[GreenBeret]

Zemmer:

That was a nice closing remark. I like that post in general. Well said (or not said).

 

[Zenmervolt]

Bobtist and Green Beret: Thanks. I'm glad that at least a couple of people can see from where I'm coming.

Eakers: To whom are you talking? You have me re-checking all my posts to see if I crossed the line at some point.

The rest of you: I hope that I wasn't all that insufferable. My apologies if I was a bit overbearing at times.

Zenmervolt

EDIT: As I look over my posts once more, I'm wondering if maybe I can convince the Moderators to change my status from &quot;Senior Member&quot; to &quot;Forum Gramarian&quot;. (For the record, I have no expectation of that actually happening, and it would probably cease to be amusing quite quickly.)

 

[pamchenko]

If that is the way you speak, and you're not trying to impress anyone, good for you. However, I maintain a layman's type dialect because I do not want to distance myself from those around me. When I work at this after school program, I subtly (sp?) change how I talk so that the kids can better relate to me. When I go into an interview, you better believe my speech changes.
I was born an American, I learned to speak from those around me. I have no idea where you learned to talk like you did. Maybe you come from an intellectual/elitist background that advocated the use of &quot;king's english.&quot; I doubt you speak with a british accent, but that's what you suggest? I imagine that your a really articulate person that tends to intimidate or impress ppl in real life. However, I chose not to follow that path because I didn't want to &quot;seem&quot; elitist in anyway. Regardless, ppl like you have their own niche and it usually leads to a life of success. Articulate ppl are usually brighter and stuff blah blah.

 

[pamchenko]

changin you from senior member to something of your own choosing would undoubtedly create a precedent for the rest of us to ask for something. I would be &quot;forum enemy #1&quot;

gosh, zen, I rered your post and &quot;blah blah sorry for being insufferable&quot; ... that is argh!!! so prep or fake it kills me. I can't help but stereotype. But who sez that kind of stuff!? Last time I heard the word insufferable was in the movie Double Jeopardy and it was in reference to ashley judd's husband in the movie...the characters involved in that scene were affluent white people living a J Crew life.