deadlift help

[coreyb]

I've been doing the starting strength 3x5 program for a month and a half now. I've been raising my deadlifts each workout by 20 lbs for the first month and now am slowing down to 15lbs or 10lbs. The only problem is my lower back is starting to round, and I'm losing good form. I've reduced my work sets from 205 to 185 and it's still a problem. My lower back get's sore really quick and it just feels uncomfortable. I can't keep a good arched back anymore!

I'm wondering if my lower back is my weak link, or if there are some other reasons I've seemed to lose my way on deadlifts. All my other lifts are progressing nicely, so I want to get this figured out quick so I don't keep this stall going long.

 

[darkxshade]

If it's as you say it is, then I would suggest you start low like 135lbs and add 10lb increments after each set to see where you're starting to round. Once you find where you belong, start from there[or lighten it a bit] and work your way back up.

 

[brikis98]

There are a few likely possibilities:

1. Bad technique. This is the typical culprit with deadlift issues. If the bar isn't in contact with your shins/thighs the whole way up, if you setup with your hips too high or too low, or if you aren't using the right muscles at the right time, your back is much more likely to round. Post a video here so you can get some critique.

2. Not enough flexibility. When you deadlift, there is a tug-of-war going on for your pelvis. Your lower back muscles are pulling on one side, trying to keep your back in full extension, while your hamstrings are pulling on the other side, trying to extend the hips. If your hamstrings are too tight, they are going to win this tug of war, and the result is your pelvis turning under and your back rounding. Lots of hamstring stretches - especially very light weight, high rep good mornings - are a good solution.

3. Lack of proprioception or motor control to maintain the lumbar arch. Many people are not able to sense the position of their back during or exercise; many people also can't consciously control their lumbar arch. Having a friend or video camera around to provide feedback is a great strategy to develop awareness. Practicing lots of supermans and cat stretches to know what it feels like to have your back in full extension is also useful.

4. The back muscles are too weak. I suspect this is the least likely possibility, but it isn't out of the question. Exercises such as back extensions, glute ham raises, supermans, and bridges can help. Lowering the weight on deadlift and upping the reps is a good idea too.

 

[coreyb]

well the bar is in contact with my shins and thighs the whole way up. it feels like ive changed my form the last 4-5 workouts and that is the culprit. im very aware of my lumbar arch which has been good up until recently. that is why im worried now, i can definitely feel it not being able to hold the arch so i dont want to keep upping the weight

im going to lower the weight and try a different stance/setup. i remember once bringing my stance out a little wider, and pointing my toes out more. i think that it was easier for me to hold it like that.

 

[coreyb]

so if i was to do one thing to improve hamstring flex., it would be the high rep, low weight good mornings? when do you recommend I do these? like after each workout? and how many sets and reps?

 

[brikis98]

well the bar is in contact with my shins and thighs the whole way up. it feels like ive changed my form the last 4-5 workouts and that is the culprit. im very aware of my lumbar arch which has been good up until recently. that is why im worried now, i can definitely feel it not being able to hold the arch so i dont want to keep upping the weight

Post a video.

so if i was to do one thing to improve hamstring flex., it would be the high rep, low weight good mornings? when do you recommend I do these? like after each workout? and how many sets and reps?

The following rough progression should work pretty well:

1st session: 3x15, PVC pipe or broom.
2nd session: 3x30, PVC pipe or broom.
3rd session: 1x10, bare bar.
4th session: 2x10, bare bar.
5th session: 3x10, bare bar.
6th session: 1x20, bare bar
7th session: 2x20, bare bar.
8th session: 3x20, bare bar.
9th session and beyond: 3x20, add 5lbs each time you complete all sets/reps.

The progression is intentionally slow because the ecentric movement in the GM has the potential to create tremendous DOMS and is easy to overdo. Don't go to the next step until you've finished the previous in its entirety. This gives you lots of time to learn the technique: maintaining lumbar arch with GM's is just as crucial as deadlifts, so if your deadlift issue is actually proprioception/motor control and not technique, GM's won't be any safer. Initially, do them at the end of the workout. Once you've adapted to them, you can do some very light ones at the beginning of the workout as a nice dynamic stretch, but don't do any heavy ones before squatting/deadlifting, or your hamstrings/back will be too fatigued for the heavy lifting. Once you start using the bare bar, you should see some improvements in hamstring flexibility very quickly.

 

[coreyb]

I have no way to post a video.

I will add the GM's though to my workouts.

Do you have any sites with really good instructions on how to do them properly?

 

[brikis98]

Do you have any sites with really good instructions on how to do them properly?

Most of the sites I've seen teach one of the (many) varieties of good mornings used by west side barbell most of which (a) aren't ideal for the goal of hamstring flexibility and (b) aren't appropriate for beginners. The GM is an extremely effective way to strengthen the posterior chain, but we are just using it to increase your ROM, so this simple approach will suffice:

1. Use roughly the same stance width and bar placement as your squat.
2. While keeping your back locked in extension, push your hips backwards. This will result in you bending forward at the waist, but it is important to remember that the ass being pulled backwards is the driving force (you are NOT just bowing down by relaxing your back!).
3. Your knees should be unlocked but only have a slight bend - the straighter they are, the more you hit the hamstrings.
4. Keep pushing your hips back as far as you can go before you feel that your back may round. The goal is to get your torso nearly parallel to the floor, but if you have tight hamstrings, you probably won't get close to this. That's ok. Do NOT sacrifice the lumbar arch for depth. Flexibility will increase over time by doing this exercise, so don't rush it.
5. Once you've hit max depth, reverse the motion by driving forward with your hips/glutes until you are upright.

And just in case it wasn't clear, let me stress the key idea behind the good morning: all motion is generated by pulling or pushing your hips/glutes backwards or forwards. The only thing your back muscles are doing is keeping your spine locked in extension.

 

[BlackTigers]

(reverse)/Hyperextensions and/or GHR's should help you quite a bit as well.

Deficit deadlifts magnified my flexibility as well, these feel amazing. You NEED a strong posterior chain to do these properly, and it feels really good on the hammies.

 

[Insomniator]

I have the same problem, and its a problem for squats as well. Once I get to around 185 I just can't keep form in dead lifts and it becomes exceedingly hard. Once I hit 205 in squats the same deal happens.

The problem for me is that I can't feel my back position/arch at all and really have no idea if my form has ever been good. I haven't dead lifted in a while because of this.

I don't want to give up squatting though so I just make sure my heels are on the ground and I don't bend my waist at all on the way up. I'd ask friends or people that work at the gym for help but they don't know what the **** they are doing and think its totally weird that I squat with my sneakers off.

I consider myself pretty flexible but I bet my back rounds when I squat and deadlift.

 

[gramboh]

Taking video of yourself will be immensely helpful in seeing if you have back position problems in the lifts. You guys must have digital cameras with a recording function? I know it feels weird to video yourself, but just do it, the immediate feedback you will get is the second best thing to having a coach with you. Within one session you will be able to tell if you need to arch your back harder (you probably do).

Try out a legit lifting belt if you have access to one, you probably don't need it for all your sets, but you can use it for the physical feedback (pushing against the belt with stomach muscles to help maintain back angle).

 

[conorvansmack]

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-deadlift-with-proper-technique/

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts#The_Deadlift

In the past when I haven't felt good about my technique, I have lowered the weight to one that I can do a lot of. I'll do a set of 10 singles where I make sure that all aspects of my technique are dialed in.

@Insominator - same advice. Drop the weight down and focus on the fundamentals.
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts#The_Squat

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-squat-with-proper-technique-fix-common-problems/

 

[brikis98]

I have the same problem, and its a problem for squats as well. Once I get to around 185 I just can't keep form in dead lifts and it becomes exceedingly hard. Once I hit 205 in squats the same deal happens.

The problem for me is that I can't feel my back position/arch at all and really have no idea if my form has ever been good. I haven't dead lifted in a while because of this.

I don't want to give up squatting though so I just make sure my heels are on the ground and I don't bend my waist at all on the way up. I'd ask friends or people that work at the gym for help but they don't know what the **** they are doing and think its totally weird that I squat with my sneakers off.

I consider myself pretty flexible but I bet my back rounds when I squat and deadlift.

1. If you are having this much trouble with your squat and deadlift, get a copy of Starting Strength and read it cover to cover. If you already have it, read it again. It is the best resource I've seen for learning the technique for all the major lifts and discusses every issue you are having. It is well worth $30 and a few hours of reading to make sure the hundreds of hours you spend squatting/deadlifting in the future are done properly. The complementary DVD is also a good resource.

2. Record yourself while lifting. This will often show you what you are doing wrong. If you can't see it yourself, post the video here so others can critique it.

 

[brikis98]

Try out a legit lifting belt if you have access to one, you probably don't need it for all your sets, but you can use it for the physical feedback (pushing against the belt with stomach muscles to help maintain back angle).

Weight lifting belts have two primary roles:

1. When used properly, they let you lift more weight.
2. They can be a teaching aid to get better at using the VM.

The first point is not currently useful to the OP. It is great to belt up when going for a 1RM, but if you are struggling to maintain a back arch at under 200lbs, you shouldn't be working anywhere near your max. The second point might be useful: if he doesn't know how to tighten his core via the Valsalva maneuver, practicing with a belt for feedback might be a great learning aid. However, it is important to understand that the belt will NOT correct his technique errors, it will NOT prevent back rounding if the rounding is due to flexibility or technique issues, and it will NOT prevent injury.

 

[norsy]

To OP, the Sumo deadlift should help you lift as much / more weight without rounding your back. But that leads to another question, would the sumo be a good alternative?

 

[brikis98]

To OP, the Sumo deadlift should help you lift as much / more weight without rounding your back. But that leads to another question, would the sumo be a good alternative?

The sumo deadlift is more comfortable for some people depending on the length/proportion of various body parts. However, it doesn't magically prevent your back from rounding: it still requires a lot of conscious effort, control and strength.