Deadlift form question

[repoman0]

Hi all,

How far back/down are you supposed to start a deadlift?

I was in the 300lb+ range for a set of 5 at 165-170lb body weight a few months ago. I realized I was starting with my shoulders too far forward (not over the bar) and with my legs too straight. "Fixed" it by starting with my shoulders over the bar, which puts my thighs almost parallel to the floor -- and I failed a set of 5 at only 265lbs today, after working back up from 235lbs for a few weeks.

I've also dropped about 6 pounds since then (not on purpose -- stupid metabolism) and did a ton of power cleans near my 2RM on Monday, which could have something to do with it, but the question still stands.

Thanks

 

[rga]

I do it just like instructed in SS. Stick my feet half way under the bar, reach down and grab the bar without bending my knees. When my hands are set I bend my my knees so my shins touch the bar. Finally I bring my chest up; I do this while trying not to sit back. When I pull on the bar, I pull up and back. The bar stays in contact with my legs the whole way up. My 1RM and 5RM are 340 and 315 respetively, but I can only hit those numbers if I only deadlift once every 2-3 weeks.

 

[mple]

It depends on the biomechanics of the individual. A video of your lift (from more than one angle) would help greatly with form critique

 

[Wordplay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5qcN_w_m8c&list=UU0ASolYU_Yh3yShLFQC0stg&index=8

I like Elliott's videos.

Not sure if this will help you but it did help me.

 

[repoman0]

I do it just like instructed in SS. Stick my feet half way under the bar, reach down and grab the bar without bending my knees. When my hands are set I bend my my knees so my shins touch the bar. Finally I bring my chest up; I do this while trying not to sit back. When I pull on the bar, I pull up and back. The bar stays in contact with my legs the whole way up. My 1RM and 5RM are 340 and 315 respetively, but I can only hit those numbers if I only deadlift once every 2-3 weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5qcN_w_m8c&list=UU0ASolYU_Yh3yShLFQC0stg&index=8

I like Elliott's videos.

Not sure if this will help you but it did help me.

Very helpful, thanks.

I adjusted form a bit today by standing with my feet further under the bar (perspective screws me up when I'm not looking from the side) and got my starting position ready as suggested in rga's post. That resulted in sitting back into it at the start, but not as much as I was before; i.e., back was more parallel to the ground and legs less bent, where before, my thighs were nearly parallel to the ground and my back was at more of a 45 degree angle. I wouldn't say 265 was "cake" but it was a definite improvement and I hope to work back up to 300+lbs now. That guy's video helped too with the meter stick stuff, good tip.

I'll take a video next deadlift day (Wednesday) to make sure I've got it!

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

A certain place has some video tutorials by Mark Rippetoe. They are quite good. You have to download them using a client.

That is all the clues I give.

Or you can go to youtube. He has tons of videos that are almost all awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt7A23YnpA

 

[CPA]

your shoulders should be past the bar. Why do you think they shouldn't. Like others said watch rippetoes videos.

 

[rga]

your shoulders should be past the bar. Why do you think they shouldn't. Like others said watch rippetoes videos.

...but Mark suggests one's shoulders should be over the bar, or slightly behind it.

 

[CPA]

...but Mark suggests one's shoulders should be over the bar, or slightly behind it.

Tell me if Rip's shoulders are over, in front or behind. They look slightly in front to me.

Reread the Starting Strength chapter on deadlift. Technically, Rip doesn't even mention shoulder placement, instead he focuses on bar placement to the foot, chest and back position, and the bar path. If done right this will lead to the shoulders being slightly in front of the bar.

Furthermore, he even mentions that with improper mechanics one will lead the bar in front of the foot and the shoulders behind the bar:

"The best would seem to be a short back at a verticle angle, but we are, unfortunately, limited by the other physical constraints on the system in our ability to make our pulling mechanics more favorable. If the back is short relative to the legs, making the back vertical will drop the hips, which shoves the knees forward, which inclines the shins, which pushes the bar forward. This sequence puts the bar forward of the mid-foot and puts the shoulders behind the bar, neither which will work at heavy weights..."

This is exactly what the OP is describing he is trying to do and guess what his weight dropped just like Rip said it would. The bar needs to be on the shins, the shoulders slightly in front of the bar, the chest must come up, keeps arms straight.

Lastly, if you have the kindle version, check out Figure 4-22 (this may be the same as the paperback, as well, not sure). The start most definitely has the shoulders in front of the bar.

Edit: I kept reading and found another passage from Rip:

"The second problem, occurring with any bar position that is not slightly behind the front of the shoulders, is a lack of equilibrium between the bar and the lifter's arms and spine;..."

Read that carefully, any bar position NOT slightly behind the front of the shoulders is a problem. If you keep reading past that comment, you will see that he mentions that arm hang angle will be 7-10 degrees behind vertical, placing the shoulders slightly in front of the bar.

 

[CPA]

From Rip himself. No mention of shoulders but the setup will leave you with shoulders slightly in front of bar.

 

[Zivic]

From Rip himself. No mention of shoulders but the setup will leave you with shoulders slightly in front of bar.

The biggest thing for me is foot placement. if I get that right, everything else falls into place

I am inside shoulder width with my toes very slightly pointed out. the bar cuts my foot in half. I get my grip set and bring my shins to the bar like rga stated in his post

with shoulder setup, I don't find this to be that big of a deal. if you are too forward or behind the bar, you will simply have a horizontal movement before you begin to lift (bar will roll into correct placement). this isn't the most efficient, but isn't detrimental to the lift; at least not for me.

 

[Zivic]

your shoulders should be past the bar. Why do you think they shouldn't. Like others said watch rippetoes videos.

I like rippetoes vid on deads... however, I don't find his vids on squats very helpful.

 

[repoman0]

I discovered something interesting in my videos today --

My first two reps at 270 were really difficult, then "for some reason" 3-5 got much easier. Upon watching the recording, I was inadvertently rounding my back on reps 3-5 Turns out that's what I was doing before when my 1RM was 315lbs and for some reason it makes the lift easier. My 1RM with a neutral spine is probably only around 280.

I found some interesting articles about the "round back deadlift" thing. I'm still going to just lower the weight and work up with a neutral back, but these are interesting reads anyway. How many of you, perhaps inadvertently, do what I was doing?

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/a_strong_case_for_the_rounded_back_deadlift

Haven't read this one yet but it looks informative:

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/round-back-deadlifts/

Worth mentioning that I've never been in any pain whatsoever from deadlifts, in fact they usually make my back feel awesome afterwards and the next day, done with a rounded back or not. I used to get back pain just sitting in class before I started working out.

 

[Koing]

I discovered something interesting in my videos today --

My first two reps at 270 were really difficult, then "for some reason" 3-5 got much easier. Upon watching the recording, I was inadvertently rounding my back on reps 3-5 Turns out that's what I was doing before when my 1RM was 315lbs and for some reason it makes the lift easier. My 1RM with a neutral spine is probably only around 280.

I found some interesting articles about the "round back deadlift" thing. I'm still going to just lower the weight and work up with a neutral back, but these are interesting reads anyway. How many of you, perhaps inadvertently, do what I was doing?

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/a_strong_case_for_the_rounded_back_deadlift

Haven't read this one yet but it looks informative:

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/round-back-deadlifts/

Worth mentioning that I've never been in any pain whatsoever from deadlifts, in fact they usually make my back feel awesome afterwards and the next day, done with a rounded back or not. I used to get back pain just sitting in class before I started working out.

My coach told me this 15yrs ago. You can lift more with your upper back rounded in the DL, this is why PL do it, you can lift more.

I wouldn't teach a beginner to do this because
-they are inherently weak
-risk of injury due to being weak
-not use to DL period, let a lone DL with a rounded upperback

I'd stick with a neutral position until you can get over 2x bw then you can drop to 60% after your done DL or work on rounded upperback on your off days if you really wanted to.

I'm an OLifter so rounded back work is not good for me as everything is done with a neutral spine and my DL sucks. I lose all power when my back rounds a tiny bit and my back feels as if it's going to snap city.

Koing

 

[repoman0]

Koing,

I'm actually talking about a round lower back -- which both of those articles basically say is bad for you but allows lifting more weight for most people. I think part of my "problem" when I failed my set at 265lbs is I forced myself to keep a neutral spine the whole time instead of allowing it to round like I would before to hit 300lbs, without even noticing it was happening.

Looks like I just need to make a conscious effort to keep a neutral spine and lift less weight for now, and attempt to work back up again. I'm curious how many people who do SS / Stronglifts type programs without having a buddy watch their deadlifts or video them often end up accidentally rounding their lower backs as they work up to heavier weights for them, since that first article states that it's pretty normal to be able to lift more like that.

I think it's pretty weird that my power clean 1RM is around 2/3 of the weight of my "proper" deadlift 1RM...

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

I think I read in Starting Strngth that you need to keep that back straight right off the bat. Your back muscles can keep it straight but you can't go from rounded to straight mid lift.

Just an FYI.

Also, if you are rounding your back, it is a bad lift. If you catch yourself doing it, stop. If I catch myself doing that I quickly deload. if I had a deadlift platform, I'd even think about dropping the weight.

 

[Koing]

Koing,

I'm actually talking about a round lower back -- which both of those articles basically say is bad for you but allows lifting more weight for most people. I think part of my "problem" when I failed my set at 265lbs is I forced myself to keep a neutral spine the whole time instead of allowing it to round like I would before to hit 300lbs, without even noticing it was happening.

Looks like I just need to make a conscious effort to keep a neutral spine and lift less weight for now, and attempt to work back up again. I'm curious how many people who do SS / Stronglifts type programs without having a buddy watch their deadlifts or video them often end up accidentally rounding their lower backs as they work up to heavier weights for them, since that first article states that it's pretty normal to be able to lift more like that.

I think it's pretty weird that my power clean 1RM is around 2/3 of the weight of my "proper" deadlift 1RM...

I wouldn't bother letting your lower back round. Just keep it neutral for now. The TNation article walks about general back rounding but points to this:




Furthermore, if you examine where most of the rounding occurs in powerlifters, a vast majority takes place in the upper back (the thoracic spine), and this strategy is safer compared to the other way around (mostly lumbar rounding).

If you choose to go ahead with rounded-back deadlifting, make sure that your lumbar spine doesn't approach end-range flexion.


As you gain proficiency in rounded-back deadlifting you'll learn to:

Set up with the scapulae pulled apart (protracted).
Set up with slight lumbar rounding, and a majority of rounding coming from the upper back.
Brace the core and create considerable IAP to help lock down the lumbar spine.
Maintain whatever spinal position is chosen and not allow the position to buckle.
This last point is incredibly important. Here's a quote from Konstantin Konstantinovs, one of the world's best deadlifters (he's Latvian and raw deadlifted 939 pounds without a belt):




Please read the above bits again.

I can PC 73% of my best DL...PC 145, DL 200. Granted my DL SUCKS...I was able to Cn 167.5kg when I could only FS 175kg at the time as well. But don't look too much in to ratios. Just look in to getting stronger. Ratios do highlight weaker areas if your focused on certain aspects but it doesn't matter too much. Generally it's beginner OLifters who can't squat much that have high ratios. It isn't a sign of efficiency if you can't FS over 150kg to start with. It's a sign of weak legs. I always tell people I've never been beaten by someone weaker than me in competition over the past 15yrs.

Koing

 

[Koing]

I think I read in Starting Strngth that you need to keep that back straight right off the bat. Your back muscles can keep it straight but you can't go from rounded to straight mid lift.

Just an FYI.

Also, if you are rounding your back, it is a bad lift. If you catch yourself doing it, stop. If I catch myself doing that I quickly deload. if I had a deadlift platform, I'd even think about dropping the weight.

Indeed!

I see enough bad DL form at the Uni gym. Just keep things neutral for now. Build strength and get your back muscles strong. Don't get fancy and letting your back round yet, this early in your training.

Koing

 

[repoman0]

Yep I definitely plan on doing them with correct neutral spine form even if I can lift more weight doing them "incorrectly." Just thought those articles were interesting and was making some of the newer lifters like myself that we have in H&F aware that dead lifting like that can happen inadvertently and without back pain, so they can fix it too.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

repo,

Not sure if it was mentioend here but one of hte best rticks to get good form on a dead is to squeeze the shoulders backward as though you are trying to pinch the Scapulas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapula

This is just like how you are supposed to squeeze them on bench press.

Go look at the image of the pencil being held halfway down here:
http://stronglifts.com/how-to-bench-press-with-proper-technique-avoid-shoulder-injuries/

It takes some getting used to (learning to control the muscles) but it is a very important thing to learn to do.

 

[rga]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that my upper back probably rounds, on the last 3-5 reps of my 5RM and on my 1RM. I don't know for sure, as I've never recorded myself deadlifting, and I am trying to maintin a neutral spine. I will record myself next Wednesday to see for sure. I've never had any upper or lower back pain from deadlifting.