That's an awesome idea, but I bet that you need to load drivers in windows prior to using it.
If not... GREAT idea!
Joe
- Status
That's an awesome idea, but I bet that you need to load drivers in windows prior to using it.
If not... GREAT idea!
Joe
A) I've never seen a "USB monitor" which does *NOT* need drivers pre-loaded.
B) Most of those use the DisplayLink chipset and DisplayLink refuses to enable the driver for Windows Server - they explicitly work quite hard to prevent its use there.
Once the box is running, it's rare to need a monitor - during install is where it's a life saver!
Richard
I just got one of these and am looking into WHS.
Has it occurred to anyone that there won't be a way to do a recovery the way the install is being suggested?
The only option is going to be a full reinstall with what is discussed so far.
To accomplish this all users here had better do a initial install with PCI and video monitor and even so I would like to hear it works on an tested actual reinstall before believing it. I have my doubts.
The boot order on this Intel is affected by whether any boot record at all exists on on the hard drives. That is why the companies that installed WHS on this have a specific set of instructions on the IDE memory module, which is a different memory module then the one that ships with these "e" or "EHW" configurations.
The memory module on the retail WHS configurations of the SS4200 has a reinstall prep setup on it, which is why you have to cycle the Scaleo with the reset/hold in order to boot from the IDE in the event of the need for WHS recovery, which is done from a client PC with a supplied disk.
In short, it seems to me:
1) I think you won't ever be able to create a recovery unless it is done during actual install
2) that first install cannot create a recovery headless, and any subsequent recovery cannot be done headless absent a specific code on the DOM
3) You may never be able to recover even if you create a recovery, as absent specific code on the DOM the SS4200 will keep trying to boot from the HDD if there are any records on the HDD. If you have an "E" version DOM in IDE you cannot boot recovery. If you have no DOM in you cannot boot if MBR HDD present. And if you remove the HDD with a MBR inorder to boot USB or IDE you cannot recover as you will need to reinstall the HDDD and reboot.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I would like to see a proven or even well thought out recovery scenario taking all this into account before everyone assumes installing WHS, with monitor or headless, on this E model will not cause problems down the road in terms of recovery. As I said the retail WHS SS4200 had a very specific mechanism for recovery.
Has it occurred to anyone that there won't be a way to do a recovery the way the install is being suggested?
The only option is going to be a full reinstall with what is discussed so far.
To accomplish this all users here had better do a initial install with PCI and video monitor and even so I would like to hear it works on an tested actual reinstall before believing it. I have my doubts.
The boot order on this Intel is affected by whether any boot record at all exists on on the hard drives. That is why the companies that installed WHS on this have a specific set of instructions on the IDE memory module, which is a different memory module then the one that ships with these "e" or "EHW" configurations.
The memory module on the retail WHS configurations of the SS4200 has a reinstall prep setup on it, which is why you have to cycle the Scaleo with the reset/hold in order to boot from the IDE in the event of the need for WHS recovery, which is done from a client PC with a supplied disk.
In short, it seems to me:
1) I think you won't ever be able to create a recovery unless it is done during actual install
2) that first install cannot create a recovery headless, and any subsequent recovery cannot be done headless absent a specific code on the DOM
3) You may never be able to recover even if you create a recovery, as absent specific code on the DOM the SS4200 will keep trying to boot from the HDD if there are any records on the HDD. If you have an "E" version DOM in IDE you cannot boot recovery. If you have no DOM in you cannot boot if MBR HDD present. And if you remove the HDD with a MBR inorder to boot USB or IDE you cannot recover as you will need to reinstall the HDDD and reboot.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I would like to see a proven or even well thought out recovery scenario taking all this into account before everyone assumes installing WHS, with monitor or headless, on this E model will not cause problems down the road in terms of recovery. As I said the retail WHS SS4200 had a very specific mechanism for recovery.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
If you had payed attention, I pointed out that recovery requires an interactive install - which implies you need a video card.
Uhm. I'd like you to prove us wrong.
A few things to point out. You WON'T be installing WHS if you have the DOM installed. That's a given. Not sure what your fuss is all about here.
Secondly, you can boot just fine (at least to USB) if you have a disk with an existing MBR, as I had done after a failed WHS install - I left out the networking drivers but otherwise my initial unattended WHS install worked perfectly from USB. I corrected the install package, and reinstalled from USB using the reset-boot without removing the drive which currently had an MBR on it (Full WHS reinstall).
Other than that, WHS recovery itself isn't trivial. Read the MSDN link I provided a few posts up - they detail a few caveats in order to preserve your data. As far as the hardware goes though, the SS4200 is perfectly capable of doing the steps described.
Is it possible to mirror critical folder to an external USB HD? If this is done, are they readable in any computer?
Wow, I am new here but I do know a little about this having spoken to people with the fujitsu (the SS4200 with WHS) about how recovery works for them.
I am simply raising a caution based on reading the entire long thread and seeing most people are installing headless.
I see from the quote I cut from your comment that you were saying the same thing. On that aspect I apologize.
On the DOM what I was pointing out was that Fujitsu, the large seller of the SS420 WHS model, used a DOM for recovery of WHS. (not the EMC/Intel DOM you seem to think I am talking about). I spoke with their people about the specific WHS recovery method they employed.
So a headless recovery is possible with a DOM carrying Fujitsus Recovery Code very specifically because it allows recovery from a PC.
On your suggested solution, yes, a with monitor recovery is possible given an initial with OPK at OOBE point, but I foresee some possibility problems with boot order and drivers.
If you are dead certain about success with the latter, cool.
Just to be clear, you have actually recovered using the method you outline?
I would like to know if anyone has actually recovered using this method. I have reasons looking at the BIOS to think there might be problems, but could be wrong. But it is a simple enough thing to try. If you had recovered then you might find some way to release a recovery image into the wild, with no key of course, and do hundreds of WHS SS4200 installers a favor. While not strictly kosher, it would not compromise MS property, since people still need their own key.
I am simply raising a caution based on reading the entire long thread and seeing most people are installing headless.
I see from the quote I cut from your comment that you were saying the same thing. On that aspect I apologize.
On the DOM what I was pointing out was that Fujitsu, the large seller of the SS420 WHS model, used a DOM for recovery of WHS. (not the EMC/Intel DOM you seem to think I am talking about). I spoke with their people about the specific WHS recovery method they employed.
So a headless recovery is possible with a DOM carrying Fujitsus Recovery Code very specifically because it allows recovery from a PC.
On your suggested solution, yes, a with monitor recovery is possible given an initial with OPK at OOBE point, but I foresee some possibility problems with boot order and drivers.
If you are dead certain about success with the latter, cool.
Just to be clear, you have actually recovered using the method you outline?
I would like to know if anyone has actually recovered using this method. I have reasons looking at the BIOS to think there might be problems, but could be wrong. But it is a simple enough thing to try. If you had recovered then you might find some way to release a recovery image into the wild, with no key of course, and do hundreds of WHS SS4200 installers a favor. While not strictly kosher, it would not compromise MS property, since people still need their own key.
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SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
- The SS4200 we've all purchased here is indeed FSC branded, but it does not come with a FSC DOM - it comes with an Intel DOM. In fact, none of us that are using it with WHS even have the DOM installed (as far as I know), as it affects the boot configuration meaning WHS won't boot. Also, because it's a headless unit, while a few of us have messed with the BIOS, a vast majority haven't, meaning we won't be changing the BIOS boot order (if it's available, I haven't bothered to make a serial cable so I can't attest to it).
- WHS won't care about drive order provided your WHS OS drive is the first bootable device. As far as spanned volumes, they use GPT partitions, and the OS is capable of reassembling them in the right order through DE by itself. As long as your WHS OS drive is your boot drive, the rest doesn't matter.
- I have not had any need to "recover" my WHS OS. The instructions linked are from Microsoft regarding WHS in general. Again, since we're using this unit as a standard WHS PC setup, the only caveats are getting the install media to boot, which is trivial to do from USB as we're making unattended installs the same way (read earlier in the thread for instructions). There's no further 3rd party recovery magic needed (Re: FSC DOM) outside of a display adapter and keyboard for you to manage an interactive install.
- Regarding a "recovery media" distributable: Again, not necessary. This functionality is available from the original WHS media as previously described. As I mentioned, recovery is not a totally straightforward method. But it's the solution that's there.
Doomer:
Not sure. I don't know if DE will extend over removable drives. As far as I remember, WHS treats and mounts both USB and eSata drives as "Removable devices" rather than "Physical disks". That may cause DE to not allow you to specify them as a mirror drive. Try it and find out?
There is also the option of just pulling the drives into another system and grabbing any files you do not have duplicated elsewhere and then jsut doing another headless install.
The drives in WHS are formatted such that they can be placed in a Windows based system and accessed directly.
If the system is truly just a backup system, no worries as you should have the files elsewhere.
If you are using it as a server, then you can pull your files off and save them before doing a fresh install.
The drives in WHS are formatted such that they can be placed in a Windows based system and accessed directly.
If the system is truly just a backup system, no worries as you should have the files elsewhere.
If you are using it as a server, then you can pull your files off and save them before doing a fresh install.
Yeah, worst case you have to spend an afternoon going through the drives to recover all your data before doing a fresh install. I'm not too worried about it.
I know the one we bought come with a DOM the seller has put the EMC's software on from the Intel site. You can see the image is actually from an Intel page where the software is offered as a fix for buyers of SS4200E who'se softwware had a bug. The seller has taken that software and placed it on a DOM to change SS4200EHW (barebones) to SS4200E (NAS software included). They probably used this: http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/ss4200-e/sb/cs-029094.htm
That isn't difficult to figure out. I also know about the Fujitsu, since the ones we bought are actually ones made by Intel or its CM for Fujitisu (they have Fujitrsu written on them) and a likely scenario is that Fujitsu cancelled the order when they went EOL on Scaleo, and Intel, Fujitsu or the CM sold them to some distrivbutor. I get all that. (Fujitsu doesnt have our serial numbers in their system.)
Again what I was pointing out that is in the configuration for OEM WHS SS4200 widely brought to market, the Fujitsu model, a DOM was used specifically for facilitating WHS recovery. I even have a copy of that DOM image from Fujitsu. I was simply pointing out that is the method they used for easy headless recovery.
WHS does "care about boot order." In order to put WHS on a machine OAEM builders need to follow strict Boot order Bios requirements. That is why our bios is a bit flaky in that, why people are having trouble otherwise exploiting the IDE. Indeed there are two sets of required orders, one for normal operation and one for recovery.
Again my point on the Fujitsu DOM is that it directs recovery to a client, allowing it to be done "headless."
My point stands and I think we can all agree: there is a liability, which should not mean people should not install headless, but that they should be aware that recovery can not be done, if the original slipstream is headless, especially absent a distribution of a recovery image.
I think it is a healthy caveat because any retail version of WHS allows recovery and the way most people are doing it here with the the SS4200E, they can recover most data, but they cannot recover the WHS install and instead have to reinstall fresh. What are your odds of having to do a recovery over a two year use? Pretty good.
I made the caveat and noted the problems in good will. I read almost this entire thread and it seems to me many people are doing it headless, even most who are doing it with a monitor are not making a recovery, which saves time in the short run, but for some will be a problem down the road.
By the way I am running a E4600 with 2 GB ram on this and it is doing well. I intend to install WHS and may even get a second SS4200 at this price. I am just getting my ducks in a row.
I don't know if that has been proven yet - whether or not the slipstreamed, headless install will automatically choose a "Server Restore" install. When I was playing with this in a VM, it seems to me that when the installer finds evidence of a WHS install it *automatically* chose a "Server Restore" instead of "Clean" install (I don't recall the exact terms, so am probably misspeaking the quoted text). Your point is well made, and should be well-taken by people doing installs!
I would be very interested in the contents of the Fujitsu DOM - as you are correct that many "true" OEMs provide a way to restore the server over the network without needing a USB thumb drive or attached DVD-ROM drive. It looks like there are some WinPE setups which could be created to live on the DOM to allow this, but I personally haven't fiddled with it.
I chose a) to enable my serial port for BIOS access b) to invest in the h/w for a full local install and c) to use BIOS mirroring for my WHS System disk - because, for me, reliability and data availability was a key feature. For many, price is the main object and they're willing to trade possible time and hassle later for lower "cost" (in every sense) today. Both are good choices, folks just need to be aware of what they're trading off.
Richard
Ok, just because I'm obsessive...
I just booted my WHS-installed VM off a WHS install disk and the Installation Type *DEFAULTED* to "Server Reinstallation" as opposed to a "New Installation". Of course all the caveats MS refers to hold, and the install screen even says: "Choose this option to reinstall your Windows Home Server operating system. IMPORTANT: Your installed programs and settings will be lost. Your Computer Backups and Shared Folders will be preserved."
So, I would suspect the slipstream install will *ALSO* default to a "Server Reinstallation" when it detects WHS disks already present - just as MS documentation says happens with the interactive install.
Someone with a slipstreamed image should easily be able to verify this using Virtual PC or another virtual machine setup. Since I didn't build a slipstreamed image I don't have one to test, nor the inclination to do so.
Richard
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
*sigh* it appears my second unit has died.
Has anyone else's had an issue where the motherboard gets power but otherwise the unit physically won't power on?
Has anyone else's had an issue where the motherboard gets power but otherwise the unit physically won't power on?
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SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Ok, just because I'm obsessive...
I just booted my WHS-installed VM off a WHS install disk and the Installation Type *DEFAULTED* to "Server Reinstallation" as opposed to a "New Installation". Of course all the caveats MS refers to hold, and the install screen even says: "Choose this option to reinstall your Windows Home Server operating system. IMPORTANT: Your installed programs and settings will be lost. Your Computer Backups and Shared Folders will be preserved."
So, I would suspect the slipstream install will *ALSO* default to a "Server Reinstallation" when it detects WHS disks already present - just as MS documentation says happens with the interactive install.
Someone with a slipstreamed image should easily be able to verify this using Virtual PC or another virtual machine setup. Since I didn't build a slipstreamed image I don't have one to test, nor the inclination to do so.
Richard
An UNATTENDED slipstream install absolutely will NOT preserve backups and shared folders. I came across this information on the Microsoft WHS blog page a while back - an UNATTENDED install will repartition and reformat ALL drives in the system as if it were a new install. There is no way to set the response file for unattended setup to do a repair install.
Would full blown Server 2k3 or 2k8 be a better choice for this beast?
Seems like data security is an afterthought.
Seems like data security is an afterthought.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Well as a follow up - turns out that this unit has a notoriously sensitive power supply in it. Fujitsu-Siemens forums is littered with issues (ironically asking about recovery in conjunction with power failures) that all have basically resulted in the unit having to go to a FSC repair center.
I tested mine with my desktop PSU and it powered on just fine.
So now I'm in a bind - I am going to see if Legend Micro will RMA the unit AND handle shipping costs - as I am not going to pay for shipping on a second RMA. Odds are I'm going to have to try to get a refund, as much as I like the NAS itself. I can't keep playing the RMA merry-go-round, as this deal for me has already reached NOT-HOT levels.
Not really. The way they handle data security is through DE. You mirror the DATA you want across the drives you select. There's your redundancy. It's NTFS, the onus is on you to make sure you're mirroring what you want backed up. If the unit/OS fails, you can pull the drives into any NTFS OS and restore your files. The OS itself isn't important to back up, as a reinstall gets you back to where WHS is intended to be - it's OEM software, and they're not expecting you to be installing applications on it. Just plain vanilla.Would full blown Server 2k3 or 2k8 be a better choice for this beast?
Seems like data security is an afterthought.
The solution, if you stop to think about it, really is pretty damn elegant.
Just attached a external enclosure with 2 WD 640gig HD's. I then added both to the storage pool so I assume I can mirror shared folders to them. Will try tomorrow.
Anybody else start getting spam from "Percocet.Vicodin.Adderall" today? I created a unique email address to use at Legend Micro's site and started getting this spam to that email address today. I got the same spam to a couple other email addresses (including a unique Bing email) as well.
Basilisk
Senior member
- Sep 15, 2000
- 774
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Nope... sounds like targeted marketing based on your Internet behavior. Be happy they haven't concluded you need Viagra as well!
Since WHS is a variant of Server 2003, does that mean that one could set up 2003 or 2008 to have the same sort of storage setup (spanning... file/directory mirroring etc) that WHS has?
I'm also surprised that pirated DOMs for WHS and this unit haven't ended up on ebay. One would think that there is at least a market as large as the numbers of these units being sold.
I'm also surprised that pirated DOMs for WHS and this unit haven't ended up on ebay. One would think that there is at least a market as large as the numbers of these units being sold.
I was thinking about it, and if I were going to do that, why not just run the raid (or half of it) off of that card and use the on-board PATA?
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
No. There are no standalone "components" of WHS available that can be installed on other OS's, otherwise you'd have people running WHS on W2k8 already. The core changes are part of the OS itself, not just a layer sitting on top of a W2k3 version.
If you live in San Diego or Escondido and would like to purchase my new 4200 let me know. I purchased unit last month but haven't had the time to install drives, etc... so I am going to get rid of it.
price $100
thanks
al
price $100
thanks
al
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Word of warning, and a little bit of praise too.
As mentioned, the power supplies in these units are very, VERY sensitive. A minor line spike easily takes them out - so make sure you use something that will condition the line (such as a UPS) that you have this thing plugged into.
As far as my second dead unit goes, kudos to Legend Micro. They're aware of the power supply issues with this thing, but are also in the bind as they are the ones that have to deal with their stock of SS4200's. Rather than going through the whole RMA process and spending another $15 of my own in shipping, they're going to send me a new (tested) power supply for my unit.
As mentioned, the power supplies in these units are very, VERY sensitive. A minor line spike easily takes them out - so make sure you use something that will condition the line (such as a UPS) that you have this thing plugged into.
As far as my second dead unit goes, kudos to Legend Micro. They're aware of the power supply issues with this thing, but are also in the bind as they are the ones that have to deal with their stock of SS4200's. Rather than going through the whole RMA process and spending another $15 of my own in shipping, they're going to send me a new (tested) power supply for my unit.
can't do the install remoting in from another computer into command prompt/gui, where the other computer takes the place of a monitor?
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