Question DDR5 MB first AMD or Intel?

[Kedas]

AMD has the flexibility to do DDR4 and DDR5 at the same time with the same 8 core dies. (limited cost)
Intel has the money to just make extra dies. (after they figure out to use 10nm or not)

 

[sandorski]

Dunno, but Intel is probably who will have the next Chipset release. I think they have a lot more Marketing incentive to do so as well, but they might not want to exacerbate their competitive issues by increasing Costs for their platforms. I suppose it depends on what kind of Performance enhancements it might bring.

 

[moinmoin]

Personally I believe the steady cadence of updates AMD's execution manages so far makes them more likely to be first at DDR5. Intel stagnates since they weren't prepared for the issues they face with 10nm, so all technological advances they planned ahead are pretty much delayed 2-3 years atm. Those they'll have to make up first.

 

[ClockHound]

First Intel will release a new HEDT platform with support for DDR4+++

 

[ubern00b]

I'd say AMD just cause of their recent resurgence with Ryzen, Ryzen 2 just around the corner, PCI-E 4, bringing more than 4 cores to the desktop mainstream etc though it's anyone's call really, though I wouldnt mind 2x16GB DDR5 5000mhz RAM to last me the next couple of years 😀

 

[NostaSeronx]

I'm sort of expecting a Z590(X570+ w/ DDR5)/Z560(B550+ w/ DDR5), somewhat next year for Vermeer/Renoir/Dali.

 

[ubern00b]

Ouch just seen the poll results, AMD is burning Intel bad, and whilst it might not be indicitive it's a measure of peoples perception of both comanies right now

 

[Markfw]

Ouch just seen the poll results, AMD is burning Intel bad, and whilst it might not be indicitive it's a measure of peoples perception of both comanies right now

Its fact, Intel is stuck on hold for a while, and AMD is marching forward, tromping them. Why wouldn't they be first ?

 

[ubern00b]

Its fact, Intel is stuck on hold for a while, and AMD is marching forward, tromping them. Why wouldn't they be first ?

oh it's not a complaint on my part, just seems the general population now seems to be picking up on and responding to whats been going on in the CPU market the last 2 years

 

[DrMrLordX]

First Intel will release a new HEDT platform with support for DDR4+++

I'm sure you meant this as a joke, but if Intel did release a new HEDT platform, what would they put in it? Cascade Lake-X wouldn't be sufficiently different from Skylake-X refresh to require an entirely new platform. And it would get slaughtered by Rome-based Threadripper (coming in Q4 2019, allegedly). IceLake-SP is extremely limited in quantity, restricted to 26c, and apparently not clocking very high thanks to 10nm problems.

 

[DisEnchantment]

That IO die gives them so much flexibility.
I imagine their Core design team can keep working on new Cores continuously without shuffling around keeps them laser focused on core achitecture and optimizing layout of their Compute Die.
A mixed signal team can keep updating the IO die without impacting the Compute Die.
This alone could give AMD more flexibility vs the competition.

 

[Topweasel]

Really depends on what Intel is up to. If they plan a full series of tocks on 10nm. Then AMD. If they speed through 7nm by 2021, then Intel. Zen 4 will almost certainly be a DDR5/PCIe 5 solution. They probably want to get another gen on PCIe 4 before they move over. So the question is, will Intel step over a couple of their designs they pushed back to fast track 7nm. Those ones were probably designed with DDR5 in mind.

 

[HurleyBird]

On the one hand, AMD has a lot of flexibility with chiplets, on the other hand, Intel has the willingness to break platform comparability at the drop of hat.

It will probably come down to specific product launch timing, but hearing how well Zen 3 (which I expect will have both DDR4 and DDR5 variants) is supposedly coming along, I'll give the edge to AMD.

 

[Gideon]

It seems that DDR5 manufacturing is already ramping up this year:

• According to Cadence shipments will start 2020 [Anandtech]
• Hynix plans to ship this year [Techpowerup]
• Though Samsung is still targeting 2021 (with EUV) [Anandtech]

Looking at the graph below, this doesn't seem to be just some edge-case test chips or custom sillicon. IMO at least one mainstream SKUs (even if just on server) need to support it to justify 7-8% of units shipped:

I wonder what SoCs will use it? I doubt It's only Sapphire-Rapid or Genoa, as these seem to be late 2021 products.

I wonder if AMD plans to do a new socket and I/O die for Zen 3 with DDR5 support. Wouldn't be that unheard of, considering there have been CPUs supporting multiple generations of memory before. DDR2/3 were both supported by Phenom 2 and Core 2. Likewise DDR3/4 for Haswell.

EDIT:
Regardless the following Hynix slide really made me salivate for DDR5 for desktop. Notice how it mentions DDR4 only between 1600-3200 Mbps as 1.2V DDR4 does indeed only go to 3200 MHz. Yet overclocked 1.35V ram was available up to 3200MHz, Only a couple months after launch and goes significantly beyond that.

Now according to anandtech DDR5 starts at 4800 Mbps. My guess is overclocked ram should be available at least up to 5600 Mbps (1.25V) near launch.

Cadence is confident that DDR5 ramp will begin with 16 Gb DRAMs at 4800 MT/sec/pin data transfer rate (something that was indirectly confirmed by SK Hynix’s DDR5-4800 module showcase at CES 2020).

That looks to be quite an advantage:

 

[jpiniero]

My guess if anything ships in 2020 with DDR5 (not LPDDR5) it would be Tiger Lake mobile. But it appears that Intel has given up on DDR5 for Tiger Lake. Zen 3 (mobile only) might be the first to ship with it.

 

[Atari2600]

I'd be quite surprised if Zen3 didn't have both; even if the DDR5 version came later and in limited quantities.

(i) Maintain DDR4 as a continued upgrade path for EYPC Zen3 on a stable, qualified platform.
(ii) At the very least, a DDR5 Zen3 as an initial pipe cleaner for DDR5 on Zen4. Enterprise can then do their qualifications and satisfy themselves with performance & stability.

For the home user, you might see AM5 as a mid-life platform upgrade with a separate flavour of Zen3 Ryzen - same premise - clear the pipes for Zen4. I'd consider it a bit less likely unless they can see monetary benefit out of it.

 

[Makaveli]

Intel is only now going PCIe 4.

I think AMD will be first to market with DDR5.

 

[jpiniero]

I'd be quite surprised if Zen3 didn't have both; even if the DDR5 version came later and in limited quantities.

(i) Maintain DDR4 as a continued upgrade path for EYPC Zen3 on a stable, qualified platform.
(ii) At the very least, a DDR5 Zen3 as an initial pipe cleaner for DDR5 on Zen4. Enterprise can then do their qualifications and satisfy themselves with performance & stability.

I just don't think AMD wants to sell AM4 and AM5 of the same processor. Zen 3 Threadripper is a possibility if they break socket compatibility again and do DDR5 only.

 

[NostaSeronx]

I just don't think AMD wants to sell AM4 and AM5 of the same processor.

It will probably be AM4 and AM4+. DDR5 UDIMM uses the same PHY/Pin setup as DDR4 UDIMM. 670 for DDR4(AM4 with AM4+ optimization)/675 for DDR5, etc. AM5 in my rumor mill is set to be LGA in the 1800-2200 pin area.

 

[moinmoin]

Did we already know that DDR5 doesn't double the bandwidth over DDR4? Somehow I expected a doubling, but maybe I was focusing too much on the PCIe cadence.

 

[mopardude87]

I guess out of the box support ddr5 speeds start at 4800mhz?

 

[Atari2600]

I just don't think AMD wants to sell AM4 and AM5 of the same processor. Zen 3 Threadripper is a possibility if they break socket compatibility again and do DDR5 only.

But they will want to debug and certify a new platform as early as possible with as little exposure as as possible to minimize risk.

A DDR5 controller on Zen3 will allow them (and enterprise) to do that.

 

[jpiniero]

But they will want to debug and certify a new platform as early as possible with as little exposure as as possible to minimize risk.

A DDR5 controller on Zen3 will allow them (and enterprise) to do that.

That's why I mentioned Zen 3 Mobile. The nice thing about BGA is that there's no upside in retaining compatibility.

 

[Gideon]

Did we already know that DDR5 doesn't double the bandwidth over DDR4? Somehow I expected a doubling, but maybe I was focusing too much on the PCIe cadence.

Well according to micron DDR5 has 36% more actual bandwidth at the same frequency, so overclocked mem should be very close to twice the bandwidth. At the later stages (2023+ probably even more):

 

[DrMrLordX]

I wonder if AMD plans to do a new socket and I/O die for Zen 3 with DDR5 support. Wouldn't be that unheard of, considering there have been CPUs supporting multiple generations of memory before. DDR2/3 were both supported by Phenom 2 and Core 2. Likewise DDR3/4 for Haswell.

Did Haswell ever support DDR4? I don't remember that happening. In the case of Phenom2, it had socket compatibility with Phenom (and technically late x2 chips; e.g. Brisbane), so it had to have DDR2 functionality in the IMC just to avoid breaking that socket compatibility. If AMD goes to a new socket and DDR5 for Vermeer, they'll have to do an entirely new run of chips. It won't be like Phenom2 all over again.

Regardless the following Hynix slide really made me salivate for DDR5 for desktop. Notice how it mentions DDR4 only between 1600-3200 Mbps as 1.2V DDR4 does indeed only go to 3200 MHz.

Color me disappointed that they're moving standard vid down again. I know that's for servers and laptops more than desktops, but for me, I would like them to keep the voltages high where possible (process) and start chasing some higher clocks!