Dazed and Confused

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Not only are you ignorant, you're lying too, out of the 396 dead less than one third were civilian causalties.

More than 300 people who have been firing at Israel is dead, i applaud that because targeting ONLY civilians as the Palestinians have done for decades isn't anything but an act of terror.

Don't you ever get tired of hoping that those who fight these people will stop and let them have their way with you? You might think it's going to be nice but from what i've seen, it won't.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
I lean more to supporting Israel, but neither sides hands are clean. Someone has to break the cycle of fighting, otherwise it will continue endlessly. How this could happen, I don't know. I'm certainly no ME expert.

To end this conflict, Israel must withdraw their settlers from the West Bank, to within Israel's internationally recognized borders. This does not mean Israel should unilaterally withdraw their troops along side those settlers, as doing would only lead to the same vacuum of power in as was left in Gaza, and the West Bank would likewise decent into chaos. However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops could then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the other side will mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could exist at peace with the region.

Also, Israeli troops could likely be supplemented by international peacekeeping forces. While I'd need some training to be fit for service, I'd be happy to enlist for such worthy cause as ending this decades old conflict. Perhaps there are even enough solders already trained and wiling to start today, if only we would think to ask them.

How does that sound to you?

As you stated, if Israel were to withdraw quickly, there would be a vacuum and chaos.

However, you have also indicated that Hamas and the Palestinians will continue to wage war as long as Israel is on the West Bank.

So Israel is being placed into a can't win situation -
1) if they pull out quickly to appease those that claim the West Bank is the justification, a vacuum exists and the militants rush in to take over and continue the Gaza policies.

2) f they stay, then it is an excuse for the militants to keep causing problems.

3) A slow pullback may avoid the vacuum but it still provides the excuse for militants (there are Jews on the West Bank!). So the militants continue the attacks. Does Israel absorb the punishment or push back.

The third option is a micro-ism of that past 60 years.

So what ever Israel does at present, they will get hammered on unless the Palestinian leadership can control the militants.

From Israel POV, once the militants are controlled, then a desire will have been shown and a withdrawal from the West Bank can proceed safely and under controlled conditions.

And once a pullback is accomplished, should any militant launch any type of attack against Israel, why should Israel not clean house of any known militants.

I would hope that the Pal leadership can remove the militants, but given their past track record it seems power is more important than peace.

Kill them and kill all of them (the militants), that is the only way Israel can ever have peace and it will set an example that will make people think twice. Most important is to kill those who support and orchestrate this, the leaders of Hamas and Al Aqsa.

 

[daishi5]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Try to speak about the subject without using that word! I dare you.

Besides, the last casualty counts that I read indicate 98% of the dead were Hamas. But you'll tag all the Palistinan dead as innocent, won't you? You don't care. You're crazy Innocent Palestinian Man! We can't stop you. No one can!

Even if they were all civilians killed Hamas is at fault. Not only is Hamas violating international law by attacking indiscriminately civilian areas in Israel They are Violating International law by placing place rocket launch sites, missile and armament factories, training facilities and bases for its 20,000 man army next to or close to civilian homes, schools and hospitals.

So Hamas is the bad guys for killing Israeli civilians, but the Israelis are TOTALLY awesome when they kill civilians? OK, I see how this works...

I think it would be more like hamas is more evil than Isreal, because they A: target civilians as their main tactic, B: they use their own civilians as shields , killing civilians to force the enemy to kill civilians if they try to stop them, its kind of ethically like a man taking hostages and then opening fire on other civilians and forcing the police to harm his hostages to stop him.

I was going to say that isreal was still evil, only less evil, but now that I take a step back and look at the main tactic of Hamas, I really cannot find it in myself to blame them. Their enemy is actually trying to make them kill those civilians, and if they don't kill those civilians, then Hamas will continue to kill their civilians. I wish Isreal could find a way to stop them without bloodshed, I really do. But as I think about this more and more, I blame Isreal for not being perfect and not choosing the perfect path in a very complex conflict. And if the worst accusation I can lay at their feet is that they have only found imperfect solutions to a horribly complex problem, I really do think they are the good guys.

You know something, Isreal is not perfect, they are a civilization that is stuck in a horrible situation.

But, just for a second, compare Isreal to any other country that has been attacked on their own soil, when they bombed Pearl harbor, A MILITARY TARGET, we firebombed their cities, carpet bombed their cities, and NUKED their cities. I cannot think of one other country in all of history that I know of that treated an enemy who attacking a country on their own land with as much restraint as Isreal has. I really do think Isreal may be the good guys, they aren't perfect, but they sure are a lot better than anyone else I can think of, and dear god help us if all it takes to be the bad guy is to be imperfect.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population. The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

Does anyone actually believe that if the Palestinians were given their own country they would stop hostilities with Israel? Israel could given them everything they wanted and they would still want to destroy Israel.

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse
"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

The ones sponsoring Israelis ongoing colonization of the West Bank are far wealthier and more resourceful, as the results continue to prove.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

So only 10 rockets a month, or so, and maybe one suicide dude, would somehow be acceptable, manageable, or tolerable!?

As I said, the war will continue for as long as Israel exists in the ME.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

So only 10 rockets a month, or so, and maybe one suicide dude, would somehow be acceptable, manageable, or tolerable!?

As I said, the war will continue for as long as Israel exists in the ME.

Huh? Plenty of countries exist with a consistent background of low level terrorism. Nobody calls those 'wars', because to do so would be silly. It's not 'acceptable' in the sense that they should do nothing to stop it, but it obviously is manageable, and that's what's actually important.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

The deal right now is very simple, as Hamas or Fatah can't fix it, Israel will.

I doubt ANYONE in ANY country would argue with using military power to keep the civilan population safe.

For the Palestinians, this is where the crossroad begins OR ends, they can change their policy and supervise their area or Israel can do it but NO MORE attacks against civilian Israelis is tolerable, there have been 10000 rockets fired during a cease fire, now it's increasing and they have new rockets.

THINK man, just THINK, what would you want done if Mexico had fired 10000 rockets at your home town during a couple of years?

Get off of your fucking high horse and take a walk in an Israelis mans shoes, all your ideology and all your bullshit doesn't mean shit when you're under fire.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

"public opinion research" doesn't matter one damn bit when there are very powerful and wealthy international elements -- including state sponsors -- who will encourage, fund, and help execute attacks against Israel forever.

I agree with Zebo -- I don't think there are any concessions that Israel could make to end this conflict. The war will continue as long as Israel exists in the ME.

That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

So only 10 rockets a month, or so, and maybe one suicide dude, would somehow be acceptable, manageable, or tolerable!?

As I said, the war will continue for as long as Israel exists in the ME.

Huh? Plenty of countries exist with a consistent background of low level terrorism. Nobody calls those 'wars', because to do so would be silly. It's not 'acceptable' in the sense that they should do nothing to stop it, but it obviously is manageable, and that's what's actually important.

name ONE other country that has had 10000 rockets fired upon it during two years and not responded.

One will do you stupid twat.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Oh shit...... i got to go now, i'll be back though, take care!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Huh? Plenty of countries exist with a consistent background of low level terrorism. Nobody calls those 'wars', because to do so would be silly. It's not 'acceptable' in the sense that they should do nothing to stop it, but it obviously is manageable, and that's what's actually important.

name ONE other country that has had 10000 rockets fired upon it during two years and not responded.

One will do you stupid twat.

Did you respond to the wrong post or something you stupid twat?

I never said anything about Israel not responding to attacks on it, in fact that point wasn't even in the same ballpark as what we were talking about. You really need to learn to stop and think before opening your mouth sometimes.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: eskimospy
That's completely wrong, it matters a whole hell of a lot. Sure there will always be crazies that attack Israel, but that's not what this discussion is about. The large scale resistance to Israel is possible only with the support of almost the entire population.

When people talk about ending the conflict they don't mean terrorist attacks never happen on Israel again, they mean no more intifadas, something that is very achievable.

So only 10 rockets a month, or so, and maybe one suicide dude, would somehow be acceptable, manageable, or tolerable!?

It sure would be a step in the right direction, and with the majorty of the population on the side of peace the crazies would be a lot easier to catch, reducing the number of attacks further yet.

Originally posted by: palehorse
As I said, the war will continue for as long as Israel exists in the ME.

I'd much rather see Israel accept the Saudi peace plan, as is supported by the vast majorty of the Arab world.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

I can't wait for the headline:

"Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have been totally destroyed."

"And nothing of value was lost."

 

[Capitalizt]

Peace through overwhelming victory.

Kick some ass, Israel.