Dazed and Confused

[Zebo]

Israeli President Shimon Peres Claims : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051234.html
"Nobody in this world understands what are Hamas' goals and why it continues to fire missiles," the president said. "This shooting has no point, no logic, and no chance."


Here pick me! I am happy to clear this up for you. Not too hard, just go to the source. The Hamas Charter tells us what their goals are.

- "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

- "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.



"Security and safety" is as told by the Qur'an, in which Muslims are told to : "fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (9:29)

So once Hamas takes over and rule of Islamic law is established over all the land of Israel, and the Jews pay the jizya tax with willing submission and feel themselves subdued, accepting a status of inferiority, their security and safety will be secured. I think this is what they mean by Religion of Peace.

Thats why the missle come the suicide bombers come, get it?

Scary you're the president of a country under siege and won't even read your enemies charter.

 

[BarneyFife]

Did you really need to start a new topic?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Did you really need to start a new topic?

Yes, I think it shows a perfect example of the mentality one can see all over the Western world, among political and media elites - people who cannot look at the evidence, cannot be logical, because to do so would force them to conclusions that for them would be too painful. There are people out there who will never stop the killing and mayhem until you are under the fold of Islam. Osama say much they same - I've read all his speeches too.

 

[Lemon law]

This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

 

[Genx87]

I think they should sit down and negotiate something. Obviously with that kind of charter real progress can be made!

 

[clamum]

400 innocent Palestinian civilians? Where did you get that number?

 

[kylebisme]

Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population. The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Try to speak about the subject without using that word! I dare you.

Besides, the last casualty counts that I read indicate 98% of the dead were Hamas. But you'll tag all the Palistinan dead as innocent, won't you? You don't care. You're crazy Innocent Palestinian Man! We can't stop you. No one can!

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think they should sit down and negotiate something. Obviously with that kind of charter real progress can be made!

Without a doubt!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Try to speak about the subject without using that word! I dare you.

Besides, the last casualty counts that I read indicate 98% of the dead were Hamas. But you'll tag all the Palistinan dead as innocent, won't you? You don't care. You're crazy Innocent Palestinian Man! We can't stop you. No one can!

Even if they were all civilians killed Hamas is at fault. Not only is Hamas violating international law by attacking indiscriminately civilian areas in Israel They are Violating International law by placing place rocket launch sites, missile and armament factories, training facilities and bases for its 20,000 man army next to or close to civilian homes, schools and hospitals.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population. The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

Does anyone actually believe that if the Palestinians were given their own country they would stop hostilities with Israel? Israel could given them everything they wanted and they would still want to destroy Israel.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population. The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

Does anyone actually believe that if the Palestinians were given their own country they would stop hostilities with Israel? Israel could given them everything they wanted and they would still want to destroy Israel.

If you are referring to the Palestinians in general wanting to destroy Israel this is not supported by public opinion research.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population.

Hamas represents the Palestinians in Gaza, either by will or by coercion. There is no other regime there.

The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

Funny you should mention that, as Peres, a member of the left party "Avoda", is one of the biggest advocates of the peace process and a Palestinian country. He was one of the architects of the Oslo agreements, and been involved with any diplomacy ever since then. And even he thinks Israel had enough with the recent antics of the Hamas.

If Gaza disengagement proved successful (I'll leave it to you to decide whether it was), the Israeli public would have pressured for disengagement from the West Bank as well. But it wasn't, so now the public wants war.

Why do you think the average Israeli, which might be very similar to an average New-Yorker in parts, wants the West Bank and Gaza? No one even thinks about driving the Palestinians away. Do you think Israelis want to control them? No way in hell. Israel has no use for control over Gaza and the West Bank other than security.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Does anyone actually believe that if the Palestinians were given their own country they would stop hostilities with Israel? Israel could given them everything they wanted and they would still want to destroy Israel.

I wasn't suggesting the solution is anywhere as simple as 'just giving the Palestinians their own country'. Rather, I am pointing out that Israel's ongoing colonization of the West Bank is actively destroying Palestine's only hope of ever becoming an independent state.

To end this conflict, Israel must withdraw their settlers from the West Bank, to within Israel's internationally recognized borders. This does not mean Israel should unilaterally withdraw their troops along side those settlers, as doing would only lead to the same vacuum of power in as was left in Gaza, and the West Bank would likewise decent into chaos. However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops could then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the other side will mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could exist at peace with the region.

Also, Israeli troops could likely be supplemented by international peacekeeping forces. While I'd need some training to be fit for service, I'd be happy to enlist for such worthy cause as ending this decades old conflict. Perhaps there are even enough solders already trained and wiling to start today, if only we would think to ask them.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Try to speak about the subject without using that word! I dare you.

Besides, the last casualty counts that I read indicate 98% of the dead were Hamas. But you'll tag all the Palistinan dead as innocent, won't you? You don't care. You're crazy Innocent Palestinian Man! We can't stop you. No one can!

Even if they were all civilians killed Hamas is at fault. Not only is Hamas violating international law by attacking indiscriminately civilian areas in Israel They are Violating International law by placing place rocket launch sites, missile and armament factories, training facilities and bases for its 20,000 man army next to or close to civilian homes, schools and hospitals.

So Hamas is the bad guys for killing Israeli civilians, but the Israelis are TOTALLY awesome when they kill civilians? OK, I see how this works...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think they should sit down and negotiate something. Obviously with that kind of charter real progress can be made!

Why do you people insist on acting like THAT is the only alternative?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population. The vast majority of the Arab word backs the Saudi peace initiative of a two state solution based on international law and internationally recognized borders. Obama has said that Israelis would be crazy not to accept the deal, but most Israelis are just mislead by leaders like Peres who are crazy about colonizing the West Bank.

Does anyone actually believe that if the Palestinians were given their own country they would stop hostilities with Israel? Israel could given them everything they wanted and they would still want to destroy Israel.

I believe that at this point, there is so much hatred (both rational and irrational) on both sides, that neither side can or will be able to anything other then continue their back and forth fighting.

I lean more to supporting Israel, but neither sides hands are clean. Someone has to break the cycle of fighting, otherwise it will continue endlessly. How this could happen, I don't know. I'm certainly no ME expert.

 

[SamurAchzar]

There's a considerable difference between targeting civilians on intent or trying to pick military targets inside urban zone, as it is in Gaza. And what does constitute a military anyway? There's no declared Palestinian state with formal army. Hamas are terrorists, and as such, aren't exactly uniformed.

Do you see the difference? Or do you suggest the way Hamas uses civilian population as a shield should grant it immediate immunity while firing rockets into a neighbouring country?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not all Hamas members hold strict allegiance to that charter, and Hamas members as a whole is only a fraction of the Palestinian population.

Hamas represents the Palestinians in Gaza, either by will or by coercion. There is no other regime there.

They do as long as Israel continues colonizing the West Bank, but Israel could have put a stop to that long before Hamas ever existed.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Funny you should mention that, as Peres, a member of the left party "Avoda", is one of the biggest advocates of the peace process and a Palestinian country. He was one of the architects of the Oslo agreements, and been involved with any diplomacy ever since then. And even he thinks Israel had enough with the recent antics of the Hamas.

If Gaza disengagement proved successful (I'll leave it to you to decide whether it was), the Israeli public would have pressured for disengagement from the West Bank as well. But it wasn't, so now the public wants war.

I mention it in light of the fact that colonization of the West Bank has continued under Peres's hand for decades regardless, as actions speak louder that words.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Why do you think the average Israeli, which might be very similar to an average New-Yorker in parts, wants the West Bank and Gaza? No one even thinks about driving the Palestinians away. Do you think Israelis want to control them? No way in hell. Israel has no use for control over Gaza and the West Bank other than security.

You've asked me this before, and I've explained that the vast majority of Israelis don't have any interest in colonizing the West Bank. Even the vast majority of the settlers in the West Bank are there tax breaks and nice homes at good prices. I have never doubted the existence of this vast majority, or their desire for peace.

However, there is also a small faction of resourceful people (some Israelis and some not even Jewish) who have been insuring that popular support for the colonization of the West Bank has continued over the past four decades and counting. There is also a small faction of settlers who hold a strong ideological connection to the West Bank, which they refer to by the Biblcal names of Judea and Samaria. Surely you are aware of these faction's existence too?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
I lean more to supporting Israel, but neither sides hands are clean. Someone has to break the cycle of fighting, otherwise it will continue endlessly. How this could happen, I don't know. I'm certainly no ME expert.

To end this conflict, Israel must withdraw their settlers from the West Bank, to within Israel's internationally recognized borders. This does not mean Israel should unilaterally withdraw their troops along side those settlers, as doing would only lead to the same vacuum of power in as was left in Gaza, and the West Bank would likewise decent into chaos. However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops could then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the other side will mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could exist at peace with the region.

Also, Israeli troops could likely be supplemented by international peacekeeping forces. While I'd need some training to be fit for service, I'd be happy to enlist for such worthy cause as ending this decades old conflict. Perhaps there are even enough solders already trained and wiling to start today, if only we would think to ask them.

How does that sound to you?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
There's a considerable difference between targeting civilians on intent or trying to pick military targets inside urban zone, as it is in Gaza. And what does constitute a military anyway? There's no declared Palestinian state with formal army. Hamas are terrorists, and as such, aren't exactly uniformed.

Do you see the difference? Or do you suggest the way Hamas uses civilian population as a shield should grant it immediate immunity while firing rockets into a neighbouring country?

I'm not sure who you're talking to (try quoting maybe), but assuming it's me, I'm just saying that this black and white view of the conflict is dumb. Yes, there ARE obvious differences...but I'm not sure Israel is the unqualified white knight here, or that everyone else are bad guys from a cheesy action movie.

In any case, there are people involved in this conflict besides Hamas and the Israelis...should we just conveniently forget them?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This Israel, the angels, and Hamas the devil, may justify fools, this is a 60 year on growing struggle with Hamas not even born for much of it, and that struggle will continue until a just, fair to all sides, equitable peace settlement can be reached, or chemical and biological weapons make Israel inhabitable.

Now many people in Israel have been killed with recent Rocket attacks from Gaza? Already some 400 most innocent Palestinians civilians have died and the number may reach hundreds of thousands according to some authors I have read. Combined Arab and world anger at Israel is likely to mount as well as the number of terrorists groups, funding, missiles, so its hard to see this buying Israel any safety.

Your defiition of innocent and civilians differs than most people here and there.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Your defiition of innocent and civilians differs than most people here and there.

Yeah, he seems to be rounding up the total number. What do you think the number of innocent civilians might be at 375 total dead and counting though?

What do you imagine the number of innocent civilians dead on both sides of this conflict might be by the time Israel finally ends their colonization of the West Bank?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
I lean more to supporting Israel, but neither sides hands are clean. Someone has to break the cycle of fighting, otherwise it will continue endlessly. How this could happen, I don't know. I'm certainly no ME expert.

To end this conflict, Israel must withdraw their settlers from the West Bank, to within Israel's internationally recognized borders. This does not mean Israel should unilaterally withdraw their troops along side those settlers, as doing would only lead to the same vacuum of power in as was left in Gaza, and the West Bank would likewise decent into chaos. However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops could then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the other side will mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could exist at peace with the region.

Also, Israeli troops could likely be supplemented by international peacekeeping forces. While I'd need some training to be fit for service, I'd be happy to enlist for such worthy cause as ending this decades old conflict. Perhaps there are even enough solders already trained and wiling to start today, if only we would think to ask them.

How does that sound to you?

As you stated, if Israel were to withdraw quickly, there would be a vacuum and chaos.

However, you have also indicated that Hamas and the Palestinians will continue to wage war as long as Israel is on the West Bank.

So Israel is being placed into a can't win situation -
1) if they pull out quickly to appease those that claim the West Bank is the justification, a vacuum exists and the militants rush in to take over and continue the Gaza policies.

2) f they stay, then it is an excuse for the militants to keep causing problems.

3) A slow pullback may avoid the vacuum but it still provides the excuse for militants (there are Jews on the West Bank!). So the militants continue the attacks. Does Israel absorb the punishment or push back.

The third option is a micro-ism of that past 60 years.

So what ever Israel does at present, they will get hammered on unless the Palestinian leadership can control the militants.

From Israel POV, once the militants are controlled, then a desire will have been shown and a withdrawal from the West Bank can proceed safely and under controlled conditions.

And once a pullback is accomplished, should any militant launch any type of attack against Israel, why should Israel not clean house of any known militants.

I would hope that the Pal leadership can remove the militants, but given their past track record it seems power is more important than peace.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
To end this conflict, Israel must withdraw their settlers from the West Bank, to within Israel's internationally recognized borders. This does not mean Israel should unilaterally withdraw their troops along side those settlers, as doing would only lead to the same vacuum of power in as was left in Gaza, and the West Bank would likewise decent into chaos. However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops could then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the other side will mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could exist at peace with the region.

Also, Israeli troops could likely be supplemented by international peacekeeping forces. While I'd need some training to be fit for service, I'd be happy to enlist for such worthy cause as ending this decades old conflict. Perhaps there are even enough solders already trained and wiling to start today, if only we would think to ask them.

How does that sound to you?

3) A slow pullback may avoid the vacuum but it still provides the excuse for militants (there are Jews on the West Bank!). So the militants continue the attacks. Does Israel absorb the punishment or push back.

It seems you missed the bolded part above. Those Israeli settlers in the West Bank are the militant's biggest incentive to attack Israel, as that ongoing colonization of the West Bank is undermining any chance of Palestinian sovereignty.

Thankfully most hold no ideological connection to the land and hence will go easily. The radical fring settlers shouldn't all have to be dragged out of their houses either like the were in Gaza either. There was no reasonable excuse for making such an absurd scene out of that situation. Cutting their electricity and water and playing a battle of attrition with them is bound to bring most of them back to within the boarders of Israel given enough time.

Now do you understand how the plan would work?