Damned knee

[IHateMyJob2004]

I'll give the long version. This is all in regards to my right knee. my left knee is fine.

About 5 years ago, I sprained my knee playing roller hockey. I couldn't walk and it was PAINFUL. I saw a specialist thinking the worst. He said I sprained it but the scan they did reveled a very minor torn miniscus. Doctor said to not to worry about it till it becomes problematic. His inference was that when there was daily pain for no reason, we'll get it fixed.

I started lifting and running about 3 years ago. It's on again and off again due to injuries over the past 3 years.

But maybe a year ago, it would hurt a little after running. Especially on uphill runs. Also, squatting causes the same pain.

Since, I have gotten much better about warming up before lifting. I try to run a mile prior to squatting to warm up and it helps out immensely.

As time has passed, the same thing happens. Knee is fine. Then I run or do squats. I get knee pain. But it is worse today than it used to be. The pain that is. It last just as long, typically 24-48 hours.

Now when I say pain (today), this is very minor. More of a nuisance than anything.

What is going on here? This is the whole knee in general. Hard to pinpoint where the pain exists exactly. Almost behind the knee cap is the best description.

Runners knee? Stabalizer muscles? illateral band syndrom? See that specialist again? Or is there a sports injury person I can see?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Nobody can really diagnose you from just your description of generalized symptoms. Most knee pain gets worse with walking up and down hill/stairs and frequently with high knee flexion. You should see a physical therapist who could kept reintegrate you back into activity, make sure your ROM is appropriate, address any soft tissue restrictions, and modify your form if necessary. It'd have to be a good PT though as bad PT won't help you whatsoever.

 

[Koing]

I had a minor tear in my miniscus in 2007. The Dr said it was either a 2 week fix or a 12 week job. It was a 12 week job. I literally could not turn on the knee for at least 4-6 weeks. I was dragging it behind me for about 6 weeks. It got better after 12 weeks and I started to lift on it. BUT I never really run so no high impact on the knee. I only lift but I can play Tennis on it but I've probably put a lot less stress on my knee as I never run.

I'd go see a Dr who is use to dealing with active people and not just injured people.

Koing

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Thanks for the words. How do I know if a PT is good or bad?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Thanks for the words. How do I know if a PT is good or bad?

Word of mouth tends to be pretty reliable if you can find a friend, gym mate, family member who has had to go to PT for something. You can also find something local under different websites like yelp. Sometimes, doctors will have good referrals, but a lot of the time they have a conflict of interest (either they have partial ownership in a clinic, they have something to gain from it, etc). What state are you in?

 

[Koing]

Word of mouth tends to be pretty reliable if you can find a friend, gym mate, family member who has had to go to PT for something. You can also find something local under different websites like yelp. Sometimes, doctors will have good referrals, but a lot of the time they have a conflict of interest (either they have partial ownership in a clinic, they have something to gain from it, etc). What state are you in?

I've never had physio in any matter since I was 15. I saw a Chiropractor which I was hugely skeptical about but I was desperate after a prolapsed L4. The chiropractor helped me out a lot.

Good advice from SC but it's rare to find a good PT that knows about sports. If they do they are probably high up in the sporting world and if you aren't connected you are SOL.

Koing

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I've never had physio in any matter since I was 15. I saw a Chiropractor which I was hugely skeptical about but I was desperate after a prolapsed L4. The chiropractor helped me out a lot.

Good advice from SC but it's rare to find a good PT that knows about sports. If they do they are probably high up in the sporting world and if you aren't connected you are SOL.

Koing

I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but in the US there is an over-abundance of individuals who work in sports physical therapy. I'm one that works with all sorts of orthopedic issues, but I specialize in powerlifting and strength training (although I rarely get to see pts regarding that). A chiropractor can be great in certain cases if there are not postural deficits, muscular weakness, motor programming issues, etc as in your case. They are limited in other cases and aren't particularly helpful with peripheral joint injuries like knee stuff. Depending on the state, I think the OP will be able to find someone good here in the US.

 

[Koing]

I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but in the US there is an over-abundance of individuals who work in sports physical therapy. I'm one that works with all sorts of orthopedic issues, but I specialize in powerlifting and strength training (although I rarely get to see pts regarding that). A chiropractor can be great in certain cases if there are not postural deficits, muscular weakness, motor programming issues, etc as in your case. They are limited in other cases and aren't particularly helpful with peripheral joint injuries like knee stuff. Depending on the state, I think the OP will be able to find someone good here in the US.

All of the PT's that my friends seem to use seem completely rubbish/ useless in regards to people who are active in sports.

It's probably better in the states.

I was *desperate* and gave it a shot with my chiro back in 2005/06. The Dr's wanted surgery and I had lost about a foot of mobility. I couldn't get anywhere near touching the floor post injury. Pre I was able to get my palms flush without warming up! Chiro got me back my mobility after about 9 sessions over 9 weeks but after that he couldn't do more and the pain died over a miracle weekend after about 6months.

Koing

 

[SociallyChallenged]

All of the PT's that my friends seem to use seem completely rubbish/ useless in regards to people who are active in sports.

It's probably better in the states.

I was *desperate* and gave it a shot with my chiro back in 2005/06. The Dr's wanted surgery and I had lost about a foot of mobility. I couldn't get anywhere near touching the floor post injury. Pre I was able to get my palms flush without warming up! Chiro got me back my mobility after about 9 sessions over 9 weeks but after that he couldn't do more and the pain died over a miracle weekend after about 6months.

Koing

Hm, that's depressing. I work with a ton of people who have potentially sports career ending injuries. I rarely use modalities (ultrasound, electricity, light, laser therapies) and do a lot of hands on massage, stretching, joint mobilizations, etc in addition to exercise with emphasis on re-training movement patterns, controlling excess mobility, etc. I've seen quite a few people like you except not nearly as motivated, but with good results. Some of them, however, would not be treatable via chiropractic interventions (manipulation) like adverse neurodynamics due to piriformis, hamstring, calf limitations.

 

[deadken]

FWIW:

About 2 or 3 years ago I tore a calf muscle. I went to the hospital and they gave me crutches. It got a little bit better every day for 2 weeks and then the improvements plateaued. It stopped getting any better, and the swelling was heavy. I spoke to my PA and got no help. So, I went to the running store where I used to buy my running shoes (I had stopped running for months when the injury occurred). They all agreed on a local sports medicine guy (who has a long string of letters after his name). I went to him and he really checked me out much more thorough compared to the ER staff or my PA. He told me what to do and it made a world of difference.

I visited him again when I had knee pain after I started running again and again he was fantastic (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2292581). So, I'll suggest that you ask local runners who they use. Not everyone buys their running shoes from a local mom-and-pop store, but I swear by it. It's just so worth it when you need to talk to someone who understands exactly what you are going through...

Good luck and please post back with how everything works out.

 

[Koing]

Hm, that's depressing. I work with a ton of people who have potentially sports career ending injuries. I rarely use modalities (ultrasound, electricity, light, laser therapies) and do a lot of hands on massage, stretching, joint mobilizations, etc in addition to exercise with emphasis on re-training movement patterns, controlling excess mobility, etc. I've seen quite a few people like you except not nearly as motivated, but with good results. Some of them, however, would not be treatable via chiropractic interventions (manipulation) like adverse neurodynamics due to piriformis, hamstring, calf limitations.

All the good PTs must be snapped up by the various sports teams!

Koing

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Word of mouth tends to be pretty reliable if you can find a friend, gym mate, family member who has had to go to PT for something. You can also find something local under different websites like yelp. Sometimes, doctors will have good referrals, but a lot of the time they have a conflict of interest (either they have partial ownership in a clinic, they have something to gain from it, etc). What state are you in?

Conencticut. For exact location, Old Lyme is close.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

deadken,

Awesome advice. There's a good running store in my town that I'll hit up. Some times they bring in specialists to give free advice. They probably get some busienss from it too. But I'm on their mailer so I'll keep an eye out.

I tore a calf muscle. I feel your pain .... litterally. Mine took a good 9 months to almost be pain free. It's probably 1.5 years now and I have no pain. I but it up there with a very bad groin pull (could barely walk for two weeks) but it was much worse. The only thing worse might have been that time I didn't wear a cup playing roller hockey.

 

[vi edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patellofemoral_pain_syndrome

?

Behind the knee cap, comes on doing squats. Doesn't normally hurt until pushed. Sounds exactly like my problems a few years back. I got mine under control by doing a lot of hamstring and calf stretching and getting my quads strengthened up.

 

[Josh123]

OP, have you ever tried a knee brace?

I've been unable to jog for a good while since it always caused pain in my left knee. I ended up picking up a cheap $15 knee brace off Amazon and I've finally been able to start jogging again.

It's still a little painful but nothing like it use to be. I couldn't even go half a mile before it starting hurting like hell. Within a week I've got up to almost a 2 mile jog without stopping.

You might try it out if you've never used one. It could be a good cheap solution.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Have agood knee brace. Nothing super fancy. Just one of the better ones from a sportings good store. It does help a little but (from reading) it just masks the underlying problem.

 

[deadken]

I'm not a fan of the knee brace for my problem since exercises keep it in check. The sports doctor told me I could get a brace to hold my patella (knee cap) in place while I ran, or I could build up the muscles to do the same thing. For me, I prefer the exercises. But, I understand others might feel differently or have a different problem.

BTW: I've been to my local running store when they've had little lectures / Q&A sessions. I found it informative even if everything they talked about didn't apply to me.

 

[Josh123]

I'm not a fan of the knee brace for my problem since exercises keep it in check. The sports doctor told me I could get a brace to hold my patella (knee cap) in place while I ran, or I could build up the muscles to do the same thing. For me, I prefer the exercises. But, I understand others might feel differently or have a different problem.

BTW: I've been to my local running store when they've had little lectures / Q&A sessions. I found it informative even if everything they talked about didn't apply to me.

What type of exercises do you do to work the muscles?

 

[datflipkid]

i have tear in both my knees

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Went running last night. Realized that if I point my right toes in slightly, there is no pain on steep uphill climbs when normally there would be.

Thing is, there is no pain but talk about an ackward way to run.

 

[jaedaliu]

Went running last night. Realized that if I point my right toes in slightly, there is no pain on steep uphill climbs when normally there would be.

Thing is, there is no pain but talk about an ackward way to run.

I did the free analysis at the MSRP running store and they said that 1 of my feet turn in. It's pretty funny, they licensed $$$ motion tracking software, and only used it for playback/recording of video.

Anyways, they sold me some shoes to keep my toes from pointing in as I run or something like that. Your local fancy running store should be able to help match you with a pair that helps your feet point the right way for you when you run.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I'm 6'4"... My old running coach (RIP) used to tell me never to do leg lifts...squats, etc...

He said, that can do more damage for me than anyone and since I wasn't a sprinter, it was useless unless I just did light stretches. I'm just throwing that out there....weight trainers will totally disagree. His argument was that I was more likely to injur myself doing the lifts than by stretching out slowly and running with good form.

Now....for you, you'll need to see another specialist and get their opinion. Chances are, they'll want to scope your knee if there's evidence of further damage.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/meniscus-repair

My dad was in NYC with me about 7 years ago. He stepped off a curb and felt his knee pop. He had to have it scoped 3-4 years ago because it kept bothering him and never healed up.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm 6'4"... My old running coach (RIP) used to tell me never to do leg lifts...squats, etc...

He said, that can do more damage for me than anyone and since I wasn't a sprinter, it was useless unless I just did light stretches. I'm just throwing that out there....weight trainers will totally disagree. His argument was that I was more likely to injur myself doing the lifts than by stretching out slowly and running with good form.

Now....for you, you'll need to see another specialist and get their opinion. Chances are, they'll want to scope your knee if there's evidence of further damage.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/meniscus-repair

My dad was in NYC with me about 7 years ago. He stepped off a curb and felt his knee pop. He had to have it scoped 3-4 years ago because it kept bothering him and never healed up.

This advice is pretty much disproven in up-to-date research. People who cross train are actually healthier and less prone to injury, if done correctly. Programs that address lower extremity strength reduce risk of hip and knee injury that come along with running. Lifting with good form while addressing your personal needs (in your case endurance) is very easy to do with very little risk of injury. Running is actually one of the sports with the highest injury rates due to the repetitive stress. These can be countered by training to avoid poor movement problems, maintain strength in muscles that would otherwise get weak, and staying flexible.

 

[deadken]

The exercises I do are pretty simple. I lay on the floor on my back. With both legs straight out, I bend one leg and put that foot on the floor (roughly so that the indentation of that foot is right where the knee of the other leg is). I then point the toes of the straight leg towards my face and lift the straight leg. The straight leg does not need to go higher than the angle of the thigh portion of the bent leg. After ten reps, I twist my foot so that the toes point out and do ten more reps. Then I switch legs and do the other leg and do a total of three sets.

The thing is: He taught me how to do it when I visited the doctor. I forget the angle of how far the toes should be pointed out. So, for the first set I point them out about as far as I can get them (closer to being parallel with the floor). The second set I point them about 45 degrees (in between being parallel with the walls and parallel with the floor). The third set I point them out just a little bit (closer to being parallel with the walls). Please remember that every other exercise is done with them pointing straight up. I can say that when you do them right, you can feel that you are using some muscles in your thighs. Not muscles that you normally use. After a short period, I didn't feel that I was using those thigh muscles anymore. So, I put my shoes on. Now when I do the exercises with the added weight of my shoes, I feel that I'm using those muscles again.

The problem is, I was supposed to go back and see him again after 3 weeks. Well, of course, I never got back there. With the pain gone and me running again, I didn't have the urgency to see him again. BTW: It's gotten to the point where I now wear my work shoes (which are heavier than my running shoes) to do the exercises. I only do the exercises on days that I run (5 or 6 days a week).

While I hope that the exercises I've explained will help you, I'd still suggest seeing a doctor. Even if it is just to rule out any other problems.

FWIW: I just called the doctors office and left a message (they were closed). I'm going to make an appointment to see him. It might be almost 7 months late, but hey, I'm going to see him again. I felt stupid posting about how great he was and how much he helped, while knowing that I was supposed to go back. I'll make the appointment and I'll make the time in my schedule to see him.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

deadken,

I'm going to start doing the exercises you mentioned.

I also came to realize that my toes were pointed to far out on squats today. My knees were not tracking over my feet like they should be. So, I fixed that and after squatting I could tell the difference.

Yesterday I did a run and for whatever reason my knees felt better than normal when I was done.

Anyway, I know I have that meniscus tear in my right knee where the doctor said not to worry till it started hurting. I know some day will have to deal with that.