Damn westerners and their creationism.

[Cerpin Taxt]

Add-in Free Will, but if you do anything in this List you will be Tortured for Eternity!

lolwut? Methinks you don't know what Free Will is.

The "Free will" defense to the Problem of Evil is an ineffective one. God did not give us the free will to see infrared light or hear ultrasonic frequencies for example, yet we still have free will to choose among the actions of which we are capable.

If there were other particular actions which God did not want us to perform, he could have made them simply impossible, leaving us the free will to choose still among the actions of which we were capable.

EDIT: I realize you are not trying to rebut the Problem of Evil. I simply replied to your post as a springboard of sorts, so do not get the impression I'm disagreeing with something you've said.

 

[StrangerGuy]

If God in omnipotent then why did he need to send Jesus to die for our sins? If you're all powerful you can just go "Your sins are forgiven!".

It just doesn't make any sense.

I know you shouldn't bring logic into a religious debate, but hey.

The only logic religion embraces is their logical fallacies and magical thinking techniques.

 

[DanDaManJC]

The only logic religion embraces is their logical fallacies and magical thinking techniques.

Alvin Plantinga does a good job of presenting a logical argument

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/ summarizes one of his arguments against the problem of evil (among other things).

 

[StrangerGuy]

Alvin Plantinga does a good job of presenting a logical argument

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/ summarizes one of his arguments against the problem of evil (among other things).

Arguing this means we accept that premise that God actually exists.

Try again.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Alvin Plantinga does a good job of presenting a logical argument

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/ summarizes one of his arguments against the problem of evil (among other things).

That is a good article, in that it does flesh out the problems with Plantinga's defense pretty well.

I think there is a more glaring problem that the author of the article seemed to overlook, however.

In the article, he (presumably) paraphrases Plantinga thusly:

(MSR1) God’s creation of persons with morally significant free will is something of tremendous value. God could not eliminate much of the evil and suffering in this world without thereby eliminating the greater good of having created persons with free will with whom he could have relationships and who are able to love one another and do good deeds.(emphasis added)

Anytime anyone suggests that there is something that God could not do, alarms go off in my head. We are supposed to believe that God is the omnipotent creator of all that is. There is no reason why he could not create a world in which these circumstances were different such that no problem of evil could even exist. I suppose it is alluded to very indirectly when the author identifies the inconsistency in usual Christian doctrine that suggests human beings are incapable of committing evil deeds in heaven, thereby demonstrating that a God can create circumstances wherein free will exists without the necessity of evil.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Arguing this means we accept that premise that God actually exists.

Try again.

There's nothing wrong with assuming arguendo that God exists if we can derive from that (and other) premise(s) an absurdity. It's called reductio ad absurdum, and it is the basic form that the Problem of Evil takes.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Alvin Plantinga does a good job of presenting a logical argument

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/ summarizes one of his arguments against the problem of evil (among other things).

That's like saying you're having a logical argument about who would win in a fight between batman and spiderman.

God is a fictional character, it doesnt make any sense!

 

[DanDaManJC]

Anytime anyone suggests that there is something that God could not do, alarms go off in my head. We are supposed to believe that God is the omnipotent creator of all that is. There is no reason why he could not create a world in which these circumstances were different such that no problem of evil could even exist. I suppose it is alluded to very indirectly when the author identifies the inconsistency in usual Christian doctrine that suggests human beings are incapable of committing evil deeds in heaven, thereby demonstrating that a God can create circumstances wherein free will exists without the necessity of evil.

Yeah later in the article it says..

(The question of whether God’s omnipotence is compatible with the claim that God cannot do the logically impossible will be addressed below.)

Frankly, that's as far as I skimmed, but I figured I'd share some views here since everyone else is bashing pretty hard. Basically I'm just trying to show that it is possible for the religious to make a well reasoned argument.

Generally I do agree that the problem of evil... is quite the problem.

Arguing this means we accept that premise that God actually exists.

Try again.

Not quite.

People like JL Mackie simply argued that the typical, Christian, definition of God is logically inconsistent independent of whether or not God really exists. For many years JL Mackie's argument stood uncontested too... Alvin Plantinga is one of the guys who has been able to offer the best, logical (ie not "the bible says so") theistic response to Mackie in recent years.

That's like saying you're having a logical argument about who would win in a fight between batman and spiderman.

God is a fictional character, it doesnt make any sense!

Right... refer to Cerpin Text's reply above.

 

[zinfamous]

Evil, and well....Hell was not even a concept when the God of Abraham was first conceived. It was 2,000(?) years later when this idea somehow became...essential?

the need to place some sort of balance with these concepts in order to explain and defend the God concept baffles me.

 

[Jeff7]

If God in omnipotent then why did he need to send Jesus to die for our sins? If you're all powerful you can just go "Your sins are forgiven!".

It just doesn't make any sense.

I know you shouldn't bring logic into a religious debate, but hey.

Well, like I mentioned before, where would a good religion be without a nice human sacrifice?
Or near-genocide - the Great Flood legend. I would find it just a little bit unsettling that this promise is even on the (Bible's) record: "I promise not to destroy the world by a flood ever again." So the first time things didn't quite go according to plan. No problem, just kill off 99.9...% of all people everywhere. (And 99.9...% of all animals too.)

There are other fun things to investigate, such as God's absurd notion of justice:
Ok, so as the tale goes, Adam and Eve sin, so they're cast out of Eden, effectively condemning all of their future descendants to a life of suffering. Now you get the whole BS story of "original sin."

Let us make our justice system work that way:
Let's say that you commit a crime, and you have to serve 10 years in jail, and register as a sex offender.
Then your kids will also be registered as sex offenders, and upon turning 18, they serve 10 years in jail. Their kids do the same, as do their kids, and so on.

A rational mind would consider that to be draconian if our justice system were to do it, and yet it's considered by some to be perfectly acceptable if a far more powerful deity imposes such punishment upon an entire species.

 

[alevasseur14]

Ignored.

Hah. You'll do well here. Trust me.

 

[totalnoob]

Simple question to Christians: Do you think we have free will in heaven? Is it possible to sin there? Or does god make us mindless automatons?

.
.
.
I don't feel like waiting for the answer, but if you're like 99.9% of the Christians I've posed this question to, your answer will be something like "Yes!..God respects us and would not remove our individual freedom. We would still have the capacity to sin in heaven, but we will simply choose not to."

Ergo, you are acknowledging that it IS within God's power to create a realm where free creatures exist, but voluntarily choose not to do evil. He could have created a place without the moral ("free will") evils we experience daily..but he did not. What conclusions can you draw from this? If you believe God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, only one conclusion can be drawn...He is NOT all-good.

 

[Tweak155]

Well, like I mentioned before, where would a good religion be without a nice human sacrifice?
Or near-genocide - the Great Flood legend. I would find it just a little bit unsettling that this promise is even on the (Bible's) record: "I promise not to destroy the world by a flood ever again." So the first time things didn't quite go according to plan. No problem, just kill off 99.9...% of all people everywhere. (And 99.9...% of all animals too.)

There are other fun things to investigate, such as God's absurd notion of justice:
Ok, so as the tale goes, Adam and Eve sin, so they're cast out of Eden, effectively condemning all of their future descendants to a life of suffering. Now you get the whole BS story of "original sin."

Let us make our justice system work that way:
Let's say that you commit a crime, and you have to serve 10 years in jail, and register as a sex offender.
Then your kids will also be registered as sex offenders, and upon turning 18, they serve 10 years in jail. Their kids do the same, as do their kids, and so on.

A rational mind would consider that to be draconian if our justice system were to do it, and yet it's considered by some to be perfectly acceptable if a far more powerful deity imposes such punishment upon an entire species.

I think part of what you missed is he destroyed the Neflim (sp?) in the flood. According to the bible they were offspring between angels in their physical form and extremely beautiful women. So he then prevented angels to transcend mediums and then destroyed the offspring for several reasons, 1 being that everything that man desired was bad, hence only the true followers of God at that time were saved. And since he promised never to do it again, he hasn't even though the same eventual types of humans came about (even as clear today), although without Neflim. This is according to the bible.

Not that it sounds any better to you, of course .

 

[Tweak155]

Simple question to Christians: Do you think we have free will in heaven? Is it possible to sin there? Or does god make us mindless automatons?

.
.
.
I don't feel like waiting for the answer, but if you're like 99.9% of the Christians I've posed this question to, your answer will be something like "Yes!..God respects us and would not remove our individual freedom. We would still have the capacity to sin in heaven, but we will simply choose not to."

Ergo, you are acknowledging that it IS within God's power to create a realm where free creatures exist, but voluntarily choose not to do evil. He could have created a place without the moral ("free will") evils we experience daily..but he did not. What conclusions can you draw from this? If you believe God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, only one conclusion can be drawn...He is NOT all-good.

Depends on the Christian you talk to. Not all interpretations of the bible are going to be the same, obviously. Being labeled a Christian mostly indicates you are a follower of Christ, but in your own methods / interpretations.

 

[Tweak155]

Evil, and well....Hell was not even a concept when the God of Abraham was first conceived. It was 2,000(?) years later when this idea somehow became...essential?

the need to place some sort of balance with these concepts in order to explain and defend the God concept baffles me.

This is why it depends on which Christian you talk to. Not every Christian believes in hell. Just because some (maybe even most, I don't know) bibles translate certain words to hell doesn't mean that is what every Christian must believe.

The literal translation you see for the word "hell" is actually more along the lines of "the common grave of mankind".

EDIT:

In hebrew:

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ol"), in Hebrew שאול (She'ol), is the "grave", or "pit" or "abyss".

Hades is the greek translation of the word Sheol.

 

[BurnItDwn]

This is why it depends on which Christian you talk to. Not every Christian believes in hell. Just because some (maybe even most, I don't know) bibles translate certain words to hell doesn't mean that is what every Christian must believe.

The literal translation you see for the word "hell" is actually more along the lines of "the common grave of mankind".

EDIT:

In hebrew:

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ol"), in Hebrew שאול (She'ol), is the "grave", or "pit" or "abyss".

Hades is the greek translation of the word Sheol.

I thought this was already established as fact but I guess not.

After death, there are a few things that may happen.

If you die heroically in battle, Odin or Freyja will choose you.
If Odin chooses you, then the Valkyries will escort you to Valhalla and you can live amongst the Einherjar. There, you will help Odin prepare for Ragnarok.
If Freyja choses you, you will wind up heading to Fólkvangr.

If you die a dishonorable death, you go to Nifleheim and get ordered around by the jotunn Helreginn.

 

[Tweak155]

I thought this was already established as fact but I guess not.

After death, there are a few things that may happen.

If you die heroically in battle, Odin or Freyja will choose you.
If Odin chooses you, then the Valkyries will escort you to Valhalla and you can live amongst the Einherjar. There, you will help Odin prepare for Ragnarok.
If Freyja choses you, you will wind up heading to Fólkvangr.

If you die a dishonorable death, you go to Nifleheim and get ordered around by the jotunn Helreginn.

Touché my good man, touché.

 

[Connoisseur]

You ever notice that, almost universally in these threads, Christianity is the only religion that's bashed into the ground? Regardless, I have nothing against Christianity as a religion. It has the same hogwash and tripe as just about any other religion in the world that came before or since so it doesn't deserve all the focus.

What I really hate are fundamentalists of all religions. Those nutjobs who think that their law should be followed to the letter and everything their book says is true. This includes people of ALL religions. The stories are FABLES dips**t. They're meant to teach a lesson which falls in line with the belief system of that particular religion. They're NOT true.
PSA:
The world was NOT created 10,000 years ago. People DON'T deserve to be punished for a BS caste system. Humans are NOT born sinners. Infidels need NOT be killed. God does NOT control all aspects of this existence to achieve some retarded grand plan.

And RSaylor I honestly WOULD NOT include Gandhi in your list. One of his famous lines:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Gandhi was a Hindu. He believed in LESSONS and advice taken from each religion and NOT the nonsense stories as far as I can tell.

 

[BurnItDwn]

You ever notice that, almost universally in these threads, Christianity is the only religion that's bashed into the ground? Regardless, I have nothing against Christianity as a religion. It has the same hogwash and tripe as just about any other religion in the world that came before or since so it doesn't deserve all the focus.

What I really hate are fundamentalists of all religions. Those nutjobs who think that their law should be followed to the letter and everything their book says is true. This includes people of ALL religions. The stories are FABLES dips**t. They're meant to teach a lesson which falls in line with the belief system of that particular religion. They're NOT true.
PSA:
The world was NOT created 10,000 years ago. People DON'T deserve to be punished for a BS caste system. Humans are NOT born sinners. Infidels need NOT be killed. God does NOT control all aspects of this existence to achieve some retarded grand plan.

And RSaylor I honestly WOULD NOT include Gandhi in your list. One of his famous lines:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Gandhi was a Hindu. He believed in LESSONS and advice taken from each religion and NOT the nonsense stories as far as I can tell.

I agree with most of what you are saying. However, I disagree with one comment. All religions are false except for Ásatrú. It is the true religion of Odin, the great god king of the Asgard!

 

[Jeff7]

I think part of what you missed is he destroyed the Neflim (sp?) in the flood. According to the bible they were offspring between angels in their physical form and extremely beautiful women. So he then prevented angels to transcend mediums and then destroyed the offspring for several reasons, 1 being that everything that man desired was bad, hence only the true followers of God at that time were saved. And since he promised never to do it again, he hasn't even though the same eventual types of humans came about (even as clear today), although without Neflim. This is according to the bible.

Interesting; I'd not heard that before.

Not that it sounds any better to you, of course .

Quite right - even so, it still means that his method of dealing with sentient beings he doesn't entirely approve of can consist of "complete annihilation." It's just so terribly generous of him to promise that he won't format&reinstall the planet again.
"Kill them all and let me sort them out."

You ever notice that, almost universally in these threads, Christianity is the only religion that's bashed into the ground? Regardless, I have nothing against Christianity as a religion. It has the same hogwash and tripe as just about any other religion in the world that came before or since so it doesn't deserve all the focus.

My guess for that is that this is primarily a North-American-frequented board, and our main issue seems to be the influence of the Christian right-wingers trying to put religion where it doesn't belong. Judaism, Islam, Norse religions, Greek gods - take your pick, they're all equally valid.

Caveats to that: I guess I've got a bit of a soft-spot for Buddhism; from what I know of it, they don't really engage in the more extreme actions of some of the others. The attitude there seems to be, "Find what makes you happy, even if it's not Buddhism. We think we've got a darn good path to happiness, but you can do what works for you too." And they seem to preach pacifism instead of things like killing infidels or people who leave the religion.
Hinduism: I don't really know a heck of a lot about it.

What I really hate are fundamentalists of all religions. Those nutjobs who think that their law should be followed to the letter and everything their book says is true. This includes people of ALL religions. The stories are FABLES dips**t. They're meant to teach a lesson which falls in line with the belief system of that particular religion. They're NOT true.
PSA:
The world was NOT created 10,000 years ago. People DON'T deserve to be punished for a BS caste system. Humans are NOT born sinners. Infidels need NOT be killed. God does NOT control all aspects of this existence to achieve some retarded grand plan.

And of course the fun part about "following to the letter" is that there's still a lot of wiggle-room there. "To the letter - except for this section. And this section. And half of this sentence."
Suddenly you have people holding venomous snakes because the Bible has some statement that makes it sound like certain people should be able to do it with impunity. The number of life-threatening snakebites that result from this would make it seem rather dubious. (Yeah yeah, or else the people bitten are just that darned true of heart, or whatever.)

 

[Connoisseur]

Caveats to that: I guess I've got a bit of a soft-spot for Buddhism; from what I know of it, they don't really engage in the more extreme actions of some of the others. The attitude there seems to be, "Find what makes you happy, even if it's not Buddhism. We think we've got a darn good path to happiness, but you can do what works for you too." And they seem to preach pacifism instead of things like killing infidels or people who leave the religion.
Hinduism: I don't really know a heck of a lot about it.

In general, I approve much more of the Indian/Eastern religions than I do of the western ones. Nevermind that i'm a Hindu . Regardless, despite the fact that they have their own "issues" (Caste system in Hinduism is a good example... goes back to my problem with fundies), i find that these religions tend to focus more on the message of the "truth" rather than these nonsense stories about "way back when". They ponder much more on the nature of humanity, the universe and morality rather than "God will punish you if you do/don't do this." (although there is a bit of that in there too). Also, from what I see, most of the adherents to those religions are not adverse to science. Finally, they DO NOT try to convert other faiths which is my absolute favorite bit.

 

[totalnoob]

The literal translation you see for the word "hell" is actually more along the lines of "the common grave of mankind".

I suppose there must be other reasons people think hell is an eternal state of torture of the soul.

Luke 16:23-24
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Revelation 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66, As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
_________________

So if hell is a place where people are crying and gnashing their teeth, and where the "worms" eating your flesh (maggots I presume) NEVER die, it doesn't sound like you are dead or being obliterated into nothing does it?

 

[DanDaManJC]

The literal translation you see for the word "hell" is actually more along the lines of "the common grave of mankind".



Luke 16:23-24
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Revelation 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66, As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
_________________

So if hell is a place where people are crying and gnashing their teeth, and where the "worms" eating your flesh (maggots I presume) NEVER die, it doesn't sound like you are dead or being obliterated into nothing does it?

Sounds like choosing between God and hell is a good, fair choice.

Nice "believe or burn" mentality. Really encourages me to REALLY exercise my thinking cap.

 

[totalnoob]

Sounds like choosing between God and hell is a good, fair choice.

Nice "believe or burn" mentality. Really encourages me to REALLY exercise my thinking cap.

But it is a "choice"! You can avoid it all.. Just "choose" to believe. lolol

Of all the sick things about Xtianity, the fact that blind BELIEF is the central tenet of salvation (opposed to good works or living a moral life) is the most disgusting.

 

[Tweak155]

The literal translation you see for the word "hell" is actually more along the lines of "the common grave of mankind".



Luke 16:23-24
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Revelation 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66, As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
_________________

So if hell is a place where people are crying and gnashing their teeth, and where the "worms" eating your flesh (maggots I presume) NEVER die, it doesn't sound like you are dead or being obliterated into nothing does it?

You managed to quote every scripture except Revelation 20:14-15 where it states specifically hell is destroyed and refers to the 2nd death (after judgement). But I see you are past reasoning anyway.

Either way, not every Christian believes it, whether you want to argue it or not. I wasn't saying it was or wasn't what people make it out to be. I was saying people take the word "hell" and assign a definition to it based on what they take from the scriptures, as what you've done here, when the ACTUAL definition of the word is "grave".