Damn Bill Clinton single-handedly destroyed the GOP argument in one speech

[shortylickens]

That leaves no one to vote for.

This.

They're either idiots or evil.

 

[Bowfinger]

Thanks for your thoughts and I apologize for taking so long to reply. Bad timing, this weekend was packed to overflowing.

A key issue is that with the system we have is a distinct lack of ideas. Even if we removed money from the system we would have precisely two sets of ideas that we can choose from. Self interest in retaining power means political considerations come before effective solutions.

Let's pretend we have a magic wand which would bypass all that and try something.

Let me know what you think of my reasoning and solution.

One of the things that's brought up are jobs. Another are deficits. I submit that they can both be addressed. Clinton used "arithmetic" to shoot down the Republican plan, but also brings in his successes. I submit the reason that we did so well during Clinton's tenure is because the economy was quite good. This had nothing to do with the Democrats or Republicans. It was simply the right time for the tech bubble. That meant jobs and profits and that meant increased revenues. Good paying jobs mean people can spend and that grows the economy. That again means increased funds going into the treasury, less going to fund stimulus programs (which if you think about it do nothing to address my fundamental concerns), unemployment payments, foreclosures, etc.

Very much in sync with the foundation you've described above.

Unfortunately the bubble was not sustainable, and profits tumbled. To compensate they started to outsource. Forbes had a very good article that was posted here "Why Amazon can't build a Kindle in America" I believe. It explains that in order to preserve money Dell over time gave manufacturing to overseas corporations. This is far worse than a loss of jobs, it is a loss of needed infrastructure, gone for good at least as things stand. Dell is not alone. We have lost the ability to produce.

Yes, I agree that the loss of our manufacturing base due to outsourcing is at least one of the greatest factors in our current weak economy. Prosperity comes from adding value, and shuffling dollars around may create wealth (for a fortunate few), but it adds no fundamental value and therefore doesn't really help build prosperity. Outsourcing so much of our manufacturing capacity is one of several factors in shifting the U.S. economy from a producer of value-added goods to a Finance economy, i.e., moving dollars around.

That said, I don't believe this shift was primarily due to a need to shore up profits after the tech bubble burst (though that no doubt accelerated the trend). I believe off-shoring was driven by a combination of factors, including the increasing American standard of living (drove our employment costs up), unrestrained greed (which became more socially acceptable during the Reagan/greed is good era, and the rapidly advancing technical means to effectively run production elsewhere.

The stimulus IMO is a purposeful distraction which promises hope, but to what end? Another thread shows that the quality of jobs returning are inferior to what we had not many years ago. How can they be otherwise when there is nothing to do but flip metaphorical and literal burgers? What does anyone propose to fix this? More stimulus?

No, we need to reverse the substantial damage done by the natural consequences of the burst bubble.

Government stimulus is not intended to be a cure. It is intended to be a tourniquet, something to quickly stop the hemorrhaging until more permanent measures can be applied. Stimulus spent on infrastructure can contribute to the cure, but it is not a total fix, nor is it supposed to be.

So do we give tax breaks to corporations? That's the Republican idea, but it's absurd because the cost of restoring the underpinnings of a once robust economy. That won't happen because businesses don't want to invest more than is necessary to make a profit. Corporations are predators which have no minds or morals. They make money by spending as little as possible and charging as much as the market will bear. It's a big dumb beast because it is short sighted and can see only one quarter of a year ahead, when the financial reports come out. Ultimately they too will collapse because the cycle of downsizing and outsourcing will kill the economy and in turn themselves, but the markets are even less caring. Black ink is good, red is evil.

Indeed. That used to be mitigated somewhat by ethics and a sense of community, but they have less and less balancing power as corporations get larger and larger. I think one of our fundamental problems is that corporations have been allowed virtually unlimited growth, creating oligopolies that not only eliminate effective competition, but also create corporate behemoths whose only morality is profit. Profit is great to a point, but when it smothers all other considerations it destroys society.

So what's the fix?

First, the reality of corporate boardrooms is that they are not a meritocracy. They are unaccountable to the rest of society or economic forces for that matter. The more they cut and burn the more they make because if the ink is black that's all that matters. What a horrible model.

To fix that instead of a few controlling stockholders or institutions reinforcing this behavior, change the rules. Voting power isn't entirely based on the number of shares, but instead create tiers. Those with few shares have more voting power, and while majority holders have more say like now where they completely dominate. The reason for this is that there would be a mechanism of accountability by those who have more mundane interests, such as creating domestic jobs and making the CEO and his earn their money responsibly. We need corporate accountability and the ones to do it aren't those at the top.

Very much agree. The current environment of interlocking directorates and majority ownership by amoral institutional investors instead of people has produced a near-complete lack of accountability and reason in corporate boardrooms. It has created a positive feedback loop where those privileged few at the top grant themselves greater and greater riches while feeling no obligation whatsoever to the people and communities that help them succeed.

Second, recognize that government is inherently neither the problem nor the solution. It cannot bring life back into an economic corpse by any stimulus program, nor by increasing taxes.

I think the role of government here is primarily monitoring and enforcement. As corporations feel increasingly less sense of obligation to behave ethically and to the benefit of community, it becomes even more critical that government maintain a good balance by pushing back on behalf of its citizens.

Then again the opposite contention might be that by cutting taxes corporations will create jobs. Sure they will. They'll maximize profits and send even more jobs overseas. So what can be done? How about the creative use of taxation for specific goals? If a business hires people domestically at living wages they get their rates cut. Invest in R&D and get a reward. What if someone wants to build a fab or major investment home? Hell, give them a big big break. The naysayers will complain that corporations aren't paying their fair share, but that's irrelevant. The idea isn't to get even, it's to create income. Workers who are hired subtract from the various unemployment and welfare programs and instead pay taxes offsetting corporate tax cuts. Suppose that in spite of those incentives some decide to continue their ways? Then the carrot turns into a stick. Make it prohibitively expensive to continue on as they do. Then the stockholders (who have more power now distributed among the shareholders) can kick butt at the top.

That's well and good, but a problem is that increased costs mean difficulty competing with China and such, which brings us to the third prong of the attack which is trade and tariff reform, but in a creative way. Make it more expensive to buy cheap plastic crap, but instead of just taking the money for more government programs and expansion, create a financial resource that businesses can tap into. Small business startups can potentially borrow at zero rates, with the possibility of some debt forgiveness if they go out of the way to build themselves using domestic labor at good rates. Use that money to subsidize R&D for American uses. The downside is that some inflation must result, but if managed the result is an overall gain because of long lasting stable jobs. Of course other factors such as minimizing costs need to be taken into account and I have further suggestions regarding lowering energy bills, particularly oil and gas while investing in alternatives to ultimately replace a substantial portion of fossil fuels for many purposes and decreasing reliance on foreign sources.

That's my suggestion. What do you make of it?

I think those are good ideas in concept. As I said, I believe government must provide the balancing force to corporate obsession with profits above all else. Creative taxation, both taking and giving/lending, is one of the tools that should be available. Unfortunately, that brings us back to my point about the corrupting influence of money in politics. As long as those with deep pockets are free to buy influence, any such well-intentioned programs will quickly become corrupted. I am afraid the inevitable result will be the same system we have today, where the playing field is very much slanted to the benefit of the have-mosts and not to those companies that might be sincerely interested in improving things here at home.

So, how do we address that? How do we prevent such good intentions from becoming just as hopelessly corrupt as the current fiasco? How do we ensure government is working for the 99.9% instead of the 0.1%?

 

[Emos]

Bowfinger & Hayabusa Rider:
This is the most intelligent and enlightened discussion that I've seen in P&N in a long time and perhaps this should be worthy of its own thread
There is a podcast that I recently listened (Dan Carlin Common Sense show 236) that addressed many of the same points, when a corporation is multinational it has no alliegences to country or community. The pursuit of cheap labor results in a race to the bottom instead of a rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Tax cuts for companies that use domestic labor was on the table
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/politics/senate-bring-jobs-home-bill-blocked/index.html
before it was knocked off. You can probably guess the who did what without clicking the link.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So, how do we address that? How do we prevent such good intentions from becoming just as hopelessly corrupt as the current fiasco? How do we ensure government is working for the 99.9% instead of the 0.1%?

Something that I think applies:

Cassius:
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141)
Cassius, a nobleman, is speaking with his friend, Brutus, and trying to persuade him that, in the best interests of the public, Julius Caesar must be stopped from becoming monarch of Rome. Brutus is aware of Caesar's intentions, and is torn between his love of his friend Caesar and his duty to the republic. Cassius continues by reminding Brutus that Caesar is just a man, not a god, and that they are equal men to Caesar. They were all born equally free, and so why would they suddenly have to bow to another man? On another level this phrase has been interpreted to mean that fate is not what drives men to their decisions and actions, but rather the human condition.

We are equal to both government and corporations, which even in my cynical moments I recognize. Indeed, the failure to recognize this by the general public is largely what drives it. The two main entities are not superior to the intellect of those who constitute our nation, indeed our world. It is the failure of us to accept this that causes the divide. To accept the constraints we place upon ourselves which we too often believe are ingrained and like the Divine Rights of Kings must be. Until enough people decide that the imagination of man can transcend these self imposed bonds we cannot break free, yet that has happened. That Divine Right was cast aside with the Magna Carta. Slavery was ended when we looked outside of old ways and developed other avenues. We have the ability to change from Prometheus Chained to Prometheus Unbound. The only answer I know is for people who have the will to look beyond the status quo and staid solutions, to not be conformists in thought but contrarian in nature, to question authority, not comply out of a need to belong and fear of chastisement will we move on. Perhaps the only thing we can do is what we are trying, however imperfectly to do, and that is being voices of those crying in the wilderness. One day our words might resonate with another and another. Great fires start with a little spark. Perhaps that's our part. Keep little ideas smoldering until they catch fire.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Bowfinger & Hayabusa Rider:
This is the most intelligent and enlightened discussion that I've seen in P&N in a long time and perhaps this should be worthy of its own thread
There is a podcast that I recently listened (Dan Carlin Common Sense show 236) that addressed many of the same points, when a corporation is multinational it has no alliegences to country or community. The pursuit of cheap labor results in a race to the bottom instead of a rising tide lifts all boats.

Thanks for that info and support. I'll check it out. If I may, why don't you participate with your ideas? Reasoned discourse is what we lack. I have to leave, but it might be nice to have a thread with this spirit on the topic of domestic (and beyond) on energy. If you or Bowfinger or some other aren't able to do so perhaps I can tonight depending on the lateness of the hour. I have a few suggestions to contribute.

 

[Matt1970]

I am glad Bill Clinton gave such a good speech, but what are the voters going to do when they get in the booth and don't find him on the ballot?

 

[Icepick]

Bowfinger & Hayabusa Rider:
This is the most intelligent and enlightened discussion that I've seen in P&N in a long time and perhaps this should be worthy of its own thread
There is a podcast that I recently listened (Dan Carlin Common Sense show 236) that addressed many of the same points, when a corporation is multinational it has no alliegences to country or community. The pursuit of cheap labor results in a race to the bottom instead of a rising tide lifts all boats.

Agreed. This is one of the most valuable and enjoyable posts I've read on this board in a very long time. Thank you Bowfinger and Hayabusa Rider for sharing your insights.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I am still extremely pissed that William Jefferson Clinton did not use his brain more often when he was president. If someone ever had that perfect charismatic magic to sway people in order to make positive changes and knows enough of politics to be able to understand it, it was and still is : Bill Clinton.
Why would he sacrifice everything for a piece of ass... He could have gotten enough after he was president secretly. I understand that having a wife in politics is something different then a lonely housewife at home. But that is not a justification destroying the cornerstone of life : The marriage. Bill Clinton is still the best person for president even today. But he cannot be elected anymore... Now that i have that out of my system... :\
He explained it perfectly when he said that no matter the difference, people must work together to solve the problems and not hold each other back because of silly ideals that do not mean anything in the real world. Bill Clinton has been thinking politics through his whole life. He breathes politics. As does Hillary Clinton...

 

[jackstar7]

Didn't it used to be the case that taxes were constructed to encourage reinvestment in the company to avoid taxation? And is this no longer the case?

 

[Emos]

Thanks for that info and support. I'll check it out. If I may, why don't you participate with your ideas? Reasoned discourse is what we lack. I have to leave, but it might be nice to have a thread with this spirit on the topic of domestic (and beyond) on energy. If you or Bowfinger or some other aren't able to do so perhaps I can tonight depending on the lateness of the hour. I have a few suggestions to contribute.

Well I'm usually a dispassionate observer (who am I kidding, introverted lurker ) to this forum and half the time it's only to munch popcorn and stare at the train wrecks and freak shows that seem to be rule rather than the exception lately! I have been tempted to enter myself into the fray but then this quote pops up in the back of my mind: "better to stay silent and be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt". Then again, I just need to grow a pair and input my thoughts spontaneously, if the partisans in the monkey house screech and fling their poo at me, so be it, it's the Internet! "You have enemies? Good! That means you stood up for something, sometime in your life".

 

[Steeplerot]

Well I'm usually a dispassionate observer (who am I kidding, introverted lurker ) to this forum and half the time it's only to munch popcorn and stare at the train wrecks and freak shows that seem to be rule rather than the exception lately! I have been tempted to enter myself into the fray but then this quote pops up in the back of my mind: "better to stay silent and be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt". Then again, I just need to grow a pair and input my thoughts spontaneously, if the partisans in the monkey house screech and fling their poo at me, so be it, it's the Internet! "You have enemies? Good! That means you stood up for something, sometime in your life".

You grow a thick skin pretty fast. Welcome to delurk mode.

The crazy will die down soon enough when the election is over.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

You grow a thick skin pretty fast. Welcome to delurk mode.

The crazy will die down soon enough when the election is over.

Except for spidey... I think he will be losing his shit come November. Well, more so than usual.