Customers injured in the black friday event are sueing

[Genx87]

This is probably covered by insurance anyways. So that means the taxpayers will pay for it via the bailout.

Personally I think there is responsibility on both sides of the aisle. Walmart probably should have had a better system. But the people who stampeaded like a herd of mindless animals share some fault as well. I dont really know outside of hiring a dozen riot police to protect the store what you can ultimately do to stop hundreds of people rushing your store if that is how they want to get in.

I just cant imagine being in a situation like that. Lose all sense of humanity to save a couple bucks.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: mugs
I really don't think it's confusing, but somehow you don't get it.

HOW do you think few security guards are going to hold back a mob so they can allow small groups in at a time? Door opens to let first group in, everyone else rushes. What are a few security guards going to do other than get trampled? Unless your "few security guards" are dozens of cops in riot gear, they're not going to be able to do ANYTHING to prevent a mob from rushing the door.

Do you really think these people are going to stop because security guards tell them to?

Have you ever been to a concert or a sports game in an arena? Do you understand the ratio of guards to guests there? Have you ever noticed that a small group of security guards will stand in front of the stage at a show, holding back thousands of people who could rush the stage in mass, but never do?

Is any of this getting through? Anything? Tap tap tap. Is this thing on?

Unfortunately, Im going to have to say that people at sports games, concerts, or arenas have a different attitude then those at the walmart instance. In the case of a sports game, a few want to rush in at Touch the players, they are usually already in the front.

In the walmart instance, A large percentage of the crowd was trying to get in ASAP so they could get the best deal on their bag of Doritos. In that case, I don't think a few security guards would stop the mob, people in the back would push people in front of them and viola, the guards get ran over.

The next problem is this, These guards aren't completely trying to stop the flow of people. They want to move in as many people as safely possible. That in itself causes a problem. Have you ever tried to direct people? A large percentage of them are dumb retarded animals that will blatantly ignore whatever anyone says to them to get what they want (Im speaking from experience here). If the crowd starts flowing into the store, someone from the back pushes to get the crowd flowing faster, and again, security guards trampled.

The only thing that would have kept these people in line and order would be an electrified fence with security guards wandering up and down it with cattle prods. Because like cows, pain is the only thing that people universally understand and try to avoid.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: Vic
It's indisputable that Wal-Mart acted negligently here with regards to the employee that was killed. Here's an excellent editorial on the subject:

http://www.oregonlive.com/edit...17752677600.xml&coll=7

A preventable death at Wal-Mart
The retail giant polished its corporate image in response to criticism but continues to cut corners
Tuesday, December 02, 2008
The Oregonian

Wal-Mart hasn't yet taken any responsibility for the trampling death of a 34-year-old worker in a New York store last week. That's smart from a liability standpoint, but let's be clear about who killed Jdimytai "Jimbo" Damour.

The mob that crushed him, yes.

But also the retail giant that laid the man at the mob's feet.

Damour, a subcontracted Wal-Mart employee, was assigned to work on Black Friday, a shopping day known for doorbuster deals and heavy crowds. Many big-box stores use crowd-control tactics, such as giving vouchers to people in line or maxing out their security.

But security costs money, and Wal-Mart's juggernaut retail strategy relies upon cutting all non-essential costs. Damour's store had minimal extra security on Black Friday, and no apparent plan to handle the crowd of 2,000 people clamoring outside in the pre-dawn darkness for 50-inch flat-screen TVs ($798) or 10.2 megapixel digital cameras ($69).

When the crowd strained to break down the locked doors, Damour and a handful of other employees tried to protect Wal-Mart by pushing back. Their makeshift human shield didn't hold.

"Fists banged and shoulders pressed on the sliding-glass double doors, which bowed in with the weight of the assault," The New York Times reported. ". . . (Suddenly), the doors shattered, and the shrieking mob surged through in a blind rush for holiday bargains. (Damour) was thrown back onto the black linoleum tiles and trampled in the stampede that streamed over and around him."

It's hard to imagine a more terrifying or lonely way to die.

There's no excuse for the unfathomable heartlessness of the mob itself. The people in the crowd, drunk on greed and perceived anonymity, are to blame for Damour's death. However, Wal-Mart also must face the music. It failed to adequately address a foreseeable risk, and by doing so, it failed a basic test of corporate responsibility.

This is hardly the first time Wal-Mart put workers last to save a few bucks. The company has faced numerous sanctions for worker-related violations, including prohibiting workers from taking breaks and compelling them to work off the clock.

The company has improved its image by going greener and working more closely with local communities. Here in Oregon, the Wal-Mart Foundation just donated $275,000 to the Oregon Food Bank. Wal-Mart also teamed with Portland-based Mercy Corps to help Guatemalan farmers.

Yet the retailer still seems to get it wrong with its own workers. Its rock-bottom prices are subsidized too heavily by marginal labor practices. That's unacceptable for the nation's largest private employer -- or for any company, in any economy.

So basically every store that holds a Black Friday sale should prepare for a mob that is willing and able to BREAK DOWN THE DOORS AND STAMPEDE?

I haven't read a lot of articles about this tragic event, nor seen any video, but I do know that I haven't seen ANYTHING yet that says that Wal-Mart DIDN'T put up barriers or try outdoor crowd control of some sort.

On the contrary the OP's article states that witnesses saw several police officers LEAVE the area even after they saw what was happening.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
This is brain-numbingly simple: When someone gets injured on your property, YOU become responsible. It's why all of us carry homeowner's insurance and it's why businesses carry liability coverage and need to take reasonable steps to ensure their customer's safety.

My plan to (A) Pass out random wrist-bands and (ATTENTION WINNAR!11111!!!!) only allow SMALL GROUPS INTO WAL-MART AT A TIME, combined with (B) Increased security, via a few extra security guards on BF, could have prevented much, if not all of the mayhem.

It's common sense people. Common. Fucking. Sense.

Your plan probably would not have worked well with this crowd. These are not law-abiding people here.

They BROKE DOWN THE DOORS. These same people probably would have mugged each other for your wristbands.

 

[tk149]

I'd like to know how Fritz Mesadieu and Jonathan Mesadieu managed to incur $2 million dollars in expenses within a week of the incident. These guys (and their attorney) just sound like scum.

I went to Wal-Mart at 4:30AM on Black Friday (which apparently makes me an animal in the eyes of some of the elitists here). This Wal-Mart was scheduled to begin sales at 5:00 AM. When I arrived, I found that the store already had opened its doors at 12:00 AM, and let people inside, but would not sell any Doorbuster items until 5:00 AM. A good way to avoid stampedes, I thought.

People inside were already lined up to get Doorbuster items. I spent an hour and a half in there, and was very impressed by the politeness of the customers in the store. There was no shoving or running, and other customers were very helpful when asked where they found such-and-such item, or when I asked to see a sales flyer.

This Wal-Mart is located in a middle-class/lower-class area, and was patronized by a mix of races, but predominantly black IIRC.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: mugs
I really don't think it's confusing, but somehow you don't get it.

HOW do you think few security guards are going to hold back a mob so they can allow small groups in at a time? Door opens to let first group in, everyone else rushes. What are a few security guards going to do other than get trampled? Unless your "few security guards" are dozens of cops in riot gear, they're not going to be able to do ANYTHING to prevent a mob from rushing the door.

Do you really think these people are going to stop because security guards tell them to?

Have you ever been to a concert or a sports game in an arena? Do you understand the ratio of guards to guests there? Have you ever noticed that a small group of security guards will stand in front of the stage at a show, holding back thousands of people who could rush the stage in mass, but never do?

Is any of this getting through? Anything? Tap tap tap. Is this thing on?

The majority of people at a concert don't WANT to rush the stage.

I really don't think the repeated insults are necessary. :roll:

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
This is brain-numbingly simple: When someone gets injured on your property, YOU become responsible. It's why all of us carry homeowner's insurance and it's why businesses carry liability coverage and need to take reasonable steps to ensure their customer's safety.

My plan to (A) Pass out random wrist-bands and (ATTENTION WINNAR!11111!!!!) only allow SMALL GROUPS INTO WAL-MART AT A TIME, combined with (B) Increased security, via a few extra security guards on BF, could have prevented much, if not all of the mayhem.

It's common sense people. Common. Fucking. Sense.

Your plan probably would not have worked well with this crowd. These are not law-abiding people here.

They BROKE DOWN THE DOORS. These same people probably would have mugged each other for your wristbands.

As with any stamped the crowd animals don't want to stamped the situation forces the animals to do so and once it has started the stamped is self reinforcing. All Wal-mart would have needed was a rope to help organize the line and nothing would have happened.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mugs

I really don't think it's confusing, but somehow you don't get it.

HOW do you think few security guards are going to hold back a mob so they can allow small groups in at a time? Door opens to let first group in, everyone else rushes. What are a few security guards going to do other than get trampled? Unless your "few security guards" are dozens of cops in riot gear, they're not going to be able to do ANYTHING to prevent a mob from rushing the door.

Do you really think these people are going to stop because security guards tell them to?

If you believe there is a serious chance that when you open the doors to a store that someone is going to be hurt, then you don't open the doors. THAT is common sense. It doesn't require riot cops shooting tear gas, you don't need a chopper overhead, you need someone with a brain deciding when to open.

THEY BROKE DOWN THE DOOR.

Originally posted by: smack Down

As with any stamped the crowd animals don't want to stamped the situation forces the animals to do so and once it has started the stamped is self reinforcing. All Wal-mart would have needed was a rope to help organize the line and nothing would have happened.

if they BROKE DOWN A LOCKED GLASS AND STEEL DOOR, how is a ROPE going to help?

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mugs

I really don't think it's confusing, but somehow you don't get it.

HOW do you think few security guards are going to hold back a mob so they can allow small groups in at a time? Door opens to let first group in, everyone else rushes. What are a few security guards going to do other than get trampled? Unless your "few security guards" are dozens of cops in riot gear, they're not going to be able to do ANYTHING to prevent a mob from rushing the door.

Do you really think these people are going to stop because security guards tell them to?

If you believe there is a serious chance that when you open the doors to a store that someone is going to be hurt, then you don't open the doors. THAT is common sense. It doesn't require riot cops shooting tear gas, you don't need a chopper overhead, you need someone with a brain deciding when to open.

THEY BROKE DOWN THE DOOR.

Originally posted by: smack Down

As with any stamped the crowd animals don't want to stamped the situation forces the animals to do so and once it has started the stamped is self reinforcing. All Wal-mart would have needed was a rope to help organize the line and nothing would have happened.

if they BROKE DOWN A LOCKED GLASS AND STEEL DOOR, how is a ROPE going to help?

Thank you! Someone else actually read the article!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mugs

I really don't think it's confusing, but somehow you don't get it.

HOW do you think few security guards are going to hold back a mob so they can allow small groups in at a time? Door opens to let first group in, everyone else rushes. What are a few security guards going to do other than get trampled? Unless your "few security guards" are dozens of cops in riot gear, they're not going to be able to do ANYTHING to prevent a mob from rushing the door.

Do you really think these people are going to stop because security guards tell them to?

If you believe there is a serious chance that when you open the doors to a store that someone is going to be hurt, then you don't open the doors. THAT is common sense. It doesn't require riot cops shooting tear gas, you don't need a chopper overhead, you need someone with a brain deciding when to open.

THEY BROKE DOWN THE DOOR.

Originally posted by: smack Down

As with any stamped the crowd animals don't want to stamped the situation forces the animals to do so and once it has started the stamped is self reinforcing. All Wal-mart would have needed was a rope to help organize the line and nothing would have happened.

if they BROKE DOWN A LOCKED GLASS AND STEEL DOOR, how is a ROPE going to help?

Thank you! Someone else actually read the article!

You've never done security, have you? I'm no expert, but I've spent a decent amount of time doing it and a lot of my friends used to work event security on the side for extra money.

Mobs get out of control when the security lets them get out of control. The point of security is not to have enough guys pushing back on the other side of the door, it was to have enough personnel to manage the situation where that simply never occurred. It's easy to do, people handle much larger and much rowdier crowds all the time with no injury.

 

[DealMonkey]

Honestly, I give up. It's a binary world for most of you people in here claiming there was nothing Wal-Mart could do to control a crowd. Frankly, I can't understand how you can be that uncreative. Crowd control is handled every day, in every city, at major events from coast-to-coast, but it won't work if you don't bother to try it. And for that, Wal-Mart will get their asses handed to them. Deservedly so.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Honestly, I give up. It's a binary world for most of you people in here claiming there was nothing Wal-Mart could do to control a crowd. Frankly, I can't understand how you can be that uncreative. Crowd control is handled every day, in every city, at major events from coast-to-coast, but it won't work if you don't bother to try it. And for that, Wal-Mart will get their asses handed to them. Deservedly so.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was nothing they "could" have done but the idea that a braclet or some rope would have stopped this horde of people from pushing in the doors is a bit unrealistic. These people walked over a downed employee after pushing in the doors for christ's sake - you really think a rope or braclet would have stopped it?

 

[Capt Caveman]

The death could have been prevented and Walmart is responsible. Microcenter does an excellent job of managing the crowds outside, hire police, use a team of workers to hand-out tickets and then only allow a controllable amount of individuals into the store at a time.

In this case, additional police and the use of metal rail barriers to narrow the width of the waiting line would have stopped people from being able to push-up or rush to the front of the line.

If other stores can do it, so can Walmart.

 

[Rangoric]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Honestly, I give up. It's a binary world for most of you people in here claiming there was nothing Wal-Mart could do to control a crowd. Frankly, I can't understand how you can be that uncreative. Crowd control is handled every day, in every city, at major events from coast-to-coast, but it won't work if you don't bother to try it. And for that, Wal-Mart will get their asses handed to them. Deservedly so.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there was nothing they "could" have done but the idea that a braclet or some rope would have stopped this horde of people from pushing in the doors is a bit unrealistic. These people walked over a downed employee after pushing in the doors for christ's sake - you really think a rope or braclet would have stopped it?

Yes. An unorganized crowd is unmanaged and acts as such.

A simple rope organizes the line and the line acts organized.

Now trying to funnel people? Thats not organized, it really has to be some kind of a line where the width of the line makes it impossible for any one person to be completly closed off and unable to move on their own.

Capt Caveman above has a nice example.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: tk149
<snip>
Thank you! Someone else actually read the article!

You've never done security, have you? I'm no expert, but I've spent a decent amount of time doing it and a lot of my friends used to work event security on the side for extra money.

Mobs get out of control when the security lets them get out of control. The point of security is not to have enough guys pushing back on the other side of the door, it was to have enough personnel to manage the situation where that simply never occurred. It's easy to do, people handle much larger and much rowdier crowds all the time with no injury.

You missed the part about COPS being on site and LEAVING, didn't you? Don't you think it's possible that the employees saw the cops, and relied on them being there to help?

Also, I haven't seen any mention that Wal-Mart did or did not attempt any crowd control outside of the store. Do you know for a fact that they did not?

 

[dmcowen674]

Did they get any of the people that actually trappled over the guy yet?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: tk149
<snip>
Thank you! Someone else actually read the article!

You've never done security, have you? I'm no expert, but I've spent a decent amount of time doing it and a lot of my friends used to work event security on the side for extra money.

Mobs get out of control when the security lets them get out of control. The point of security is not to have enough guys pushing back on the other side of the door, it was to have enough personnel to manage the situation where that simply never occurred. It's easy to do, people handle much larger and much rowdier crowds all the time with no injury.

You missed the part about COPS being on site and LEAVING, didn't you? Don't you think it's possible that the employees saw the cops, and relied on them being there to help?

Also, I haven't seen any mention that Wal-Mart did or did not attempt any crowd control outside of the store. Do you know for a fact that they did not?

Are you trying to say that Walmart's security plan was to rely upon local law enforcement to control crowds at their business? You really don't want to argue that, because then Walmart is 100% screwed.

I don't know for a fact that Walmart attempted no crowd control outside their business, then again I've never made a concrete statement as to whether or not I thought Walmart was liable in this case. I've seen no evidence that Walmart employed crowd control elements outside however.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
[
Poverty breeds violence, and Wal-Mart caters to the poor. Ergo they cater to the violent.

Actually, extreme wealth breeds violence - it's just done by others who are hired to do it, so the people ordering it don't look too 'violent' on the surface.

War is little more than the powerful committing violence through others in furtherance (or defense) of their own interests, but then again, you're one of the hired hands, so...

 

[Zebo]

Nothing wrong with this. Wal-Mart effectively yelled fire in a crowded theater causing an atmosphere of hysteria with their sales promotions and failing to control crowds generated by them. Ticketmaster, artists, fraternity parties, and concert/sport venues have all lost at one time or another for similar trampling and lack of crowd control. Bascially you as an event holder on private property where public convenes has a reasonable duty to protect their safety.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
[
Poverty breeds violence, and Wal-Mart caters to the poor. Ergo they cater to the violent.

Actually, extreme wealth breeds violence - it's just done by others who are hired to do it, so the people ordering it don't look too 'violent' on the surface.

War is little more than the powerful committing violence through others in furtherance (or defense) of their own interests, but then again, you're one of the hired hands, so...

Yeah, way to compare apples and oranges.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
[
Poverty breeds violence, and Wal-Mart caters to the poor. Ergo they cater to the violent.

Actually, extreme wealth breeds violence - it's just done by others who are hired to do it, so the people ordering it don't look too 'violent' on the surface.

War is little more than the powerful committing violence through others in furtherance (or defense) of their own interests, but then again, you're one of the hired hands, so...

Yeah, way to compare apples and oranges.

I prefer to just point out that apples are red, and oranges are, well, orange.