Custom build versus Out-of-the Box: Input please

[mfenn]

That new build seems even worse than the original. It still has bad bang for the buck components: DDR3 1600, a 1090T, 890FX mobo, X-Fi, and an AX series PSU but with the added insult of an AMD GPU for an Adobe user.

Also, do you really need two blu-ray drives?

 

[dg27]

I don't need two blu-ray drives, but I do like having two optical drives.

Thanks for advising on the other components, which the builder is seriously gung-ho about and about which I don't have the expertise to question.

I sent him a link to the microcenter 8100 and suggested that I could add a hard drive and a GPU upgrade. Here's his response:

i looked over your 1200 dollar model and you cant compare it to the 1800 build most of the Dell is out of date technology if you want to go with out of date stuff you could build a similar system to that dell for MUCH LESS especially if you don't USE INTEL CHIPS which are way over priced but its your choice. From my view point as a system builder no factory built PC will ever give you the quality or customization of a custom built PC, even though they rip people off big time they just cant match the quality of a custom built PC because of there over head.

 

[mfenn]

I don't need two blu-ray drives, but I do like having two optical drives.

Thanks for advising on the other components, which the builder is seriously gung-ho about and about which I don't have the expertise to question.

I sent him a link to the microcenter 8100 and suggested that I could add a hard drive and a GPU upgrade. Here's his response:

i looked over your 1200 dollar model and you cant compare it to the 1800 build most of the Dell is out of date technology if you want to go with out of date stuff you could build a similar system to that dell for MUCH LESS especially if you don't USE INTEL CHIPS which are way over priced but its your choice. From my view point as a system builder no factory built PC will ever give you the quality or customization of a custom built PC, even though they rip people off big time they just cant match the quality of a custom built PC because of there over head.

I just took a look at that 8100, and it looks like a very nice find indeed! The only thing that I would suggest is to find one with an Nvidia GPU if you can.

As a side note, your custom builder seems completely out of touch with reality. A Core i7 870 is hardly "out of date technology". It's funny that he accuses Dell of being a rip-off, when that's exactly what he's planning to do to you.

 

[dg27]

I just took a look at that 8100, and it looks like a very nice find indeed! The only thing that I would suggest is to find one with an Nvidia GPU if you can.

Is this a personal preference? Personally I've always used EVGA in my other desktops.

Would this be appropriate?

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347361

I do no gaming, but do a lot of photo editing (Adobe CS5) and some video editing.

I'm thinking that with a card in this price range ($130) and adding a WD Caviar Black 2nd drive ($100) I'd still be ahead about $600-700...I've swapped in cards before, don't know much about the spec requirements.

 

[dg27]

Update: I discovered that the card I mentioned above requires a 400W power supply.

The EVGA GeForce GT 430 only requires a 300W PSU. Would that do the job? I do no gaming, but use Photoshop and other CS apps extensively. It's get pretty lousy reviews on newegg...

Any suggestions?

 

[mfenn]

Is this a personal preference? Personally I've always used EVGA in my other desktops.

Would this be appropriate?

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347361

I do no gaming, but do a lot of photo editing (Adobe CS5) and some video editing.

I'm thinking that with a card in this price range ($130) and adding a WD Caviar Black 2nd drive ($100) I'd still be ahead about $600-700...I've swapped in cards before, don't know much about the spec requirements.

No it's not a personal preference. It's because you use Abode CS5. It doesn't make since to build a CS5 machine without CUDA. For the GPU, I would get a non-overclocked GTS 450. The 5770 and GTS 450 have TDPs within a few watts of each other, so you don't need to worry about changing the PSU.

 

[dg27]

Thanks, Here is says that the GTS 450 requires a 450W PSU:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347177

I read on the Dell forum that Dell adjusts the bios on their systems to lower the performance (and power consumption) of the GPUs: there was a warning not to go by retail wattage specs (ie.e., their version of the 5770 cannot be compared to the retail version).

So I'm a bit concerned about using a 350W PSU with a GPU that requires 450W...

 

[betasub]

It doesn't "require" 450W. That is simply a safely high catch-all value to account for no-name cheapo PSUs that can't output anywhere near their rating.

 

[mfenn]

Thanks, Here is says that the GTS 450 requires a 450W PSU:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347177

I read on the Dell forum that Dell adjusts the bios on their systems to lower the performance (and power consumption) of the GPUs: there was a warning not to go by retail wattage specs (ie.e., their version of the 5770 cannot be compared to the retail version).

So I'm a bit concerned about using a 350W PSU with a GPU that requires 450W...

The "PSU requirements" stated on the box of a GPU are absolute bullshit. It's a CYA measure for people who have rubbish PSUs. (edit: Ack, beta beat me to it!) Contrary to popular belief, Dell actually puts decent (not spectacular, but decent) PSUs into the Studio systems because it cuts down on their warranty costs.

While Dell may use binned or underclocked 5770's, those are not going to cut down the power usage by more than 10 watts or so. Keep in mind that those posts are intended to dissuade people from doing something stupid like putting a GTX 470 into a Studio system, and don't apply to somebody doing a legitimate power-consumption side grade. The TDPs of the 5770 and GTS 450 are literally within 2 watts of each other.

 

[dg27]

Thanks, mfenn and betasub for educating me...I wanted to believe those "requirement" ratings were overly safe, but couldn't be sure. So would the card that mfenn recommends (the PNY):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...D=3332167&SID=

be the best bet?

Or is there an EVGA equivalent? I'm partial to EVGA only because that's what I've always had. I have a GEForce 8600 GT in the P4 system I am replacing).

dg

 

[mfenn]

Thanks, mfenn and betasub for educating me...I wanted to believe those "requirement" ratings were overly safe, but couldn't be sure. So would the card that mfenn recommends (the PNY):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...D=3332167&SID=

be the best bet?

Or is there an EVGA equivalent? I'm partial to EVGA only because that's what I've always had. I have a GEForce 8600 GT in the P4 system I am replacing).

dg

I think so.

There are EVGA GTS 450's, but the most appropriate costs $20 more (do not get an overclocked one for a Dell). That EVGA only has a two year warranty vs. 3 years for the PNY. They are equivalent in all other respects.

As a side note, IMHO the folks at EVGA are really coasting on their reputation as of late. They charge extra because they are a "name brand". I'd actually specifically avoid them nowadays because they cost more, don't do lifetime warranty on most of their cards anymore, and they have a policy of sending known-defective cards to people as warranty replacements. Some people on this board are on their 3rd and 4th defective replacements.

 

[dg27]

Thanks, mfenn. Glad to know about EVGA and the warranty issue. I guess it's people like me, who buy a card once or twice every few years (when upgrading), that they are literally banking on. As long as PNY is considered a good choice I'll stick with that.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[dg27]

Was looking at the PNY GeForce GTS 450 at this site (I may get the Dell 8100 @ one of their retail locations)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347177

and saw this:

450 Watt Power Supply (with 38A on the +12V Rail)

How wou;d I determine whether the PSU in an 8100 has this? (Isn't this stuff sometimes on a sticker on the PSU itself?)

 

[mfenn]

Was looking at the PNY GeForce GTS 450 at this site (I may get the Dell 8100 @ one of their retail locations)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0347177

and saw this:

450 Watt Power Supply (with 38A on the +12V Rail)

How wou;d I determine whether the PSU in an 8100 has this? (Isn't this stuff sometimes on a sticker on the PSU itself?)

Yes, the ratings should be on the sticker on the actual PSU itself.

However, betasub's and my points still apply about "PSU requirements". The way PNY arrived at 38A was that they divided 450W by 12V and rounded. 12V*38A is 456W. There there are no honestly rated 450W PSU's with 38A on the 12V (for obvious reasons!).

 

[dg27]

Thanks, mfenn: Got it. Still trying to decide whether I should just bite the bullet, get a stripped down Dell Studio XPS 9100, then add the additional hardware I want to get it up to my liking. Configured almost as I prefer comes to the $1800 neighborhood (but I'd still want an Nvidia card fir CS5) . If I strip it down to basics (below) it comes to $1215:

Studio XPS 9100 Studio XPS 9100
PROCESSORS Intel® Core™i7-930 processor(8MB L2 Cache, 2.80GHz
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64bit,
MEMORY 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs e
MONITOR No Monitor edit
VIDEO CARD ATI Radeon HD5670 1GB GDDR5
HARD DRIVE 1TB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
OPTICAL DRIVE Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
SERVICE PLAN 2 Year Basic Service Plan edit
OS RECOVERY MEDIA Recovery DVD for Windows® 7 Home Premium OS, 64bit, English e
SOUND CARD Sound Blaster® X-Fi™ Titanium

To that I'd add:

PNY VCGGTS4501XPB GeForce GTS 450 (Fermi) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16
HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card ($100)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133343

Western Digital Caviar Black WD1002FAEX 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" ($90)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533

LG Black 10X Blu-ray Burner - Bulk SATA WH10LS30 LightScribe Support ($110)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136181

That brings the total to ~$1500. This is around the price range of what the builder was suggesting and gives me a better build than the Dell 8100 (especially since it's a $525 PSU).

Any thoughts?

(I really wish I knew of a builder in my area I could trust because for $1500 I could probably get a better machine...)

dg

 

[mfenn]

That machine is much worse than the Microcenter 8100. It's got a slower CPU and wastes money on an X-Fi. Also, don't buy a FAEX; that drive has nothing worthwhile over the F3.

 

[dg27]

Didn't realize that a 2.80 vs 2.93 GHZ CPU made that much of a difference.

That and the F3 puts this into the $1285 neighborhood. Is this decent in terms of bang for the buck, keeping in mind that the PSU is 350W vs 525W?

Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)
Processor Intel® Core i7-870 Processor
Processor Speed 2.93GHz
Level 3 Cache 8MB
Smart Cache 8MB
Front Side Bus DMI 2500MT/s
RAM Installed / Max RAM Supported 8GB DDR3-1066 SDRAM (Expandable to 16GB)
Memory Configuration (4) 2GB DIMM Memory Modules
Memory Slots Available (0) Available 240-pin DIMM Slot
Hard Drive 1TB 7,200RPM Serial ATA Hard Drive
Multimedia Drive 16x DVD±RW Drive
Display Type Display Not Included
Video Card ATI Radeon HD 5770
Video Card Memory 1GB GDDR5
TV Tuner/Personal Video Recorder (PVR) None
Sound Card High Definition Audio Chipset
Network Features 10/100/1000 Gigabit Network
Wireless Network Features Dell 1525N Wireless-N Mini-Card
Ports and Connectors (2) Front USB 2.0 Ports; (2) Top USB 2.0 Ports; (4) Rear USB 2.0 Ports; (1) eSATA Port; (1) IEEE 1394a Port; (1) RJ-45 Network Port; (1) Top Headphone Port; (1) Microphone/Line-in Port; (1) Rear Line-in Connector; (1) Front L/R Line-out Connector; (1) Back L/R Surround Connector; (1) Side L/R Surround Connector; (1) Center/Subwoofer Connector; (1) Rear Microphone Connector
Memory Card Reader 19-in-1 Media Card Reader
Supported Flash Media Secure Digital, MiniSD, Hi-Capacity Secure Digital class2, Hi-Capacity Secure Digital class4, Hi-Capacity Secure Digital class6, Multi Media Card, RS Multimedia Card, Multimedia Card Plus, Multimedia card Mobile, Memory Stick, Memory Stick Duo, Memory Stick PRO, Memory Stick PRO Duo, Memory Stick Micro, Compact Flash I, Compact Flash II, Smart Media Card, xD Picture Card, Micro Drive
Expansion Bays 2 External 5.25" Bays; 1 External 3.5" Bays; 2 Internal 3.5" Bay
Expansion Slots 1 PCI-E x16 Graphic Interface Slot; 2 PCI-E x1 Interface; 1 32-bit Bus Mastering PCI Slots
Power Supply 350 Watt Power Supply
Input Device USB Multimedia Keyboard, Optical USB Mouse
Included Software McAfee SecurityCenter Trial, Microsoft® Office Starter 2010
Dimensions (WxDxH) 7.3" x 17.9" x 16.1"
Weight 22.4 lbs.
Manufacturer Warranty 1 Year Limited Warranty

PNY VCGGTS4501XPB GeForce GTS 450 (Fermi) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16
HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card ($100)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814133343

LG Black 10X Blu-ray Burner - Bulk SATA WH10LS30 LightScribe Support ($110)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136181

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5"

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185&Tpk=f3%201tb

 

[mfenn]

It's not just the base clock. The 870 will turbo up to 3.6GHz whereas the 930 will only go to 3.06Ghz.

The config looks fine. Anything that can run a 5770 can run a GTS 450.

 

[dg27]

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[mfenn]

Thanks for all of your help!

Yep, no problem.

 

[dg27]

How about this config? Has a faster CPU...

Operating system

Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Processor

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-880 quad-core processor [3.06GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache]
Memory

9GB DDR3-1333MHz SDRAM [3 DIMMs]

Hard drive 750GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive

Secondary Hard Drive 1TB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive

Graphics card 2GB NVIDIA GeForce GT 420

Blu-ray writer & Lightscribe SuperMulti DVD burner

Front Productivity Ports 15-in-1 memory card reader, 1 USB, 1394, audio

Sound Card Integrated sound

$1780 total

 

[mfenn]

That's a bad config for three reasons: (a) the 880 costs $200 more than the 870, but is only 133MHz faster, (b) three DIMMs will have you running in single-channel mode which is not good for performance, and (c) the GT 240 is a crap card (not to mention that 2GB of framebuffer on one is just silly).

 

[dg27]

That's an HP 450t and obviously it ain't cheap. Thanks for steering me clear of it. I'm kind of amazed that major manufacturers would sell systems that cost that much with crappy GPUs and inefficient RAM configs.

 

[mfenn]

That's an HP 450t and obviously it ain't cheap. Thanks for steering me clear of it. I'm kind of amazed that major manufacturers would sell systems that cost that much with crappy GPUs and inefficient RAM configs.

It's HP. "Because people will buy it anyway" is reason enough.

 

[dg27]

I guess the same applies to Dell. I've been loyal to them for a long time (4 desktops and 2 laptops) but I am annoyed because of the lack of flexibility with the components. That 8100 still looks sort of OK, but I don't like that it has such a low-rated PSU and don't get me started on the GPUs... That's why I was counting on my friend (the "builder", but really agree with those who said suggesting a pricey ATI gamer card for a system intended for heavy CS5 use is pretty ludicrous. (If even I am questioning that I don't even want to think about the stuff I know nothing about.) And I don't approve of the AMD or nothing approach either. I've searched for a reputable builder in the NYC area, but came up dry: I guess everyone's buying HPs and Dells no questions asked...