Criticize Bush, get on "no-fly" list

[OrByte]

The list is growing...and growing...and growing

I am sure there are a TON of people on that list that have publicly/privately criticized GWB.

shrug.

And since the list is top secret there is NO way of telling when/who/where/why someone is placed on the list.

go go conspiracy!

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: spaceman
criticize putin get on NO FINGARS list.

Really? Got any lists to back that up?

This crap is outta hand. I'm sick and tired of hearing how we're being trampled on via "protection" measures. If people would wake the hell up and take note that the freaking boogey man isn't coming to get them and that this is unnecessary perhaps we'd stand a chance. Instead, people continue to buy into the lie that evil people are coming to get them. Disgraceful!

Russia poisons President of Ukraine

You're equating an attack on a high profile world leader to the fear being spread to Joe six-pack in the US? Bit of a stretch don't ya think?

you asked for backup about getting fingers chomped for criticizing putin and i gave you one.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Our tax dollars are at work. We're paying them so we can't fly. Awesome.

 

[little elvis]

List works on pattern recognition, if your last name and first 3 letters of your first name match what's on the list you are automatically detained and questioned. I know because it happened to me. I was taken to a room, told why I was being denied from flying, told to surrender all my ID and questioned for about a hour. I was released after they confirmed I wasn't on the list.

That's in a nutshell, unless absolutely necessary (work related) that I will never travel again to the US.

 

[Throckmorton]

At least the list isn't black.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Fern
So 2 people, out of the many hundreds or more, who criticize GWB find themselves on the no-fly list and it's a govenment conspiracy to harrass them?

Good lord people, there are over a million names on the no-fly list and I don't see how it's remotely possible that we could have that many names without including some who are critical of Bush.

Ridiculous

Fern

Conspiracy? Probably not.

Abuse of power by some (probably not many) Bush officials/appointees? Probably

It's odd that they get on the no-fly list only *after* they wrote books (or showed their CNN report on-air), isn't it?

They mention that they flew before, without problems, and then one day, instant no-fly list.

And trying to attack my post by mentioning 1million names already on it is a bit weak, since it's ridiculous that there are that many people on it, like various congressmen. If that's your justification, it's pretty bad. We can't narrow it down more then that, and we don't have a way to take people off of it? Pathetic.

Using it to punish the "non-believers" in Bush? Criminal, if they can find out who did it. (Of course they won't, it's all "national security", so it's secret)

 

[alchemize]

The problem is, we didn't unionize the TSA.

 

[Double Trouble]

Scary how easily this can be abused, and I'm convinced it's being abused all over the place.

 

[seemingly random]

I think nixon had a list also.

 

[Jhhnn]

The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.

The very existence of such a list is shameful, and the acceptance of it even moreso. The whole thing speaks very poorly of the general public's ability to reason, and to reject authoritarian fearmongering.

Think it through. What's the real practical difference between somebody whose name is "on the list" and anybody else who passes normal airport security screening? How can one be held to be a greater security risk than the other? Given that passengers will no longer allow hijacking, what sort of terrorist act could anybody perform that would serve their purposes better than just blowing themselves up in the security pens at the airport?

What's next? A "no passport" list, so you can't even leave the country? A super-sekrit "no driver's license" list, because you might be another Timothy McVeigh? A sekrit "No fishing license" list because you might use it as cover to poison a water supply? How about a "no vote" list because you're politically opposed to those currently in power, and pose a "security risk" to their continued leadership, which is, of course, a threat to "National Security" of the worst kind?

Wake up. Just because Big Brother wraps himself in Old Glory, carries a Cross and says he's here to pertekt you doesn't mean he's not Big Brother...

If we're not willing to bear the real but minor risks of living in a relatively free society, we won't be, bet on that.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.

Typical MO for Republicans in power to make lists. This type of behavior goes as far back if Senator (Tail Gunner) Joseph McCarthy

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.

Typical MO for Republicans in power to make lists. This type of behavior goes as far back if Senator (Tail Gunner) Joseph McCarthy

Give me a break, J Edgar hoover remained in power through democrat and republican administrations and kept thousands of people on lists. It is a typical MO for either party in power.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.

Typical MO for Republicans in power to make lists. This type of behavior goes as far back if Senator (Tail Gunner) Joseph McCarthy

Give me a break, J Edgar hoover remained in power through democrat and republican administrations and kept thousands of people on lists. It is a typical MO for either party in power.

:evil:

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: little elvis
List works on pattern recognition, if your last name and first 3 letters of your first name match what's on the list you are automatically detained and questioned. I know because it happened to me. I was taken to a room, told why I was being denied from flying, told to surrender all my ID and questioned for about a hour. I was released after they confirmed I wasn't on the list.

That's in a nutshell, unless absolutely necessary (work related) that I will never travel again to the US.

Pffft! You just don't respect our freedom!





I mean freedumb.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.

The very existence of such a list is shameful, and the acceptance of it even moreso. The whole thing speaks very poorly of the general public's ability to reason, and to reject authoritarian fearmongering.

Think it through. What's the real practical difference between somebody whose name is "on the list" and anybody else who passes normal airport security screening? How can one be held to be a greater security risk than the other? Given that passengers will no longer allow hijacking, what sort of terrorist act could anybody perform that would serve their purposes better than just blowing themselves up in the security pens at the airport?

What's next? A "no passport" list, so you can't even leave the country? A super-sekrit "no driver's license" list, because you might be another Timothy McVeigh? A sekrit "No fishing license" list because you might use it as cover to poison a water supply? How about a "no vote" list because you're politically opposed to those currently in power, and pose a "security risk" to their continued leadership, which is, of course, a threat to "National Security" of the worst kind?

Wake up. Just because Big Brother wraps himself in Old Glory, carries a Cross and says he's here to pertekt you doesn't mean he's not Big Brother...

If we're not willing to bear the real but minor risks of living in a relatively free society, we won't be, bet on that.

+1, very well said.

JS80, with the part you bolded I didn't realize you were responding to the request for verification.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The fact that there are over a million people on the no-fly list just makes the whole thing worse, Fern- not better.
-snip-

I'll just pick your quote to post, since it's the last one in a line of similar thoughts.

My initial post was brief, there is no legitimate reason for this apparent confusion over it's point. The point is simply that on such a huge list you are going to find those who have opposed GWB. It would be a statistical abberation otherwise.

You people who wish to spin my point as in some way being supportive of such a huge list etc are simply being purposefuly obtuse.

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, how big a "No Fly" list would you support, Fern?

Personally, I think the whole idea is abominable. While I think that the govt may well have cause to scrutinize some travelers more than others, anybody who can pass that scrutiny should be able to fly, period.

Just one of those old-fashioned ideas based on due process and other aspects of common decency and the Bill of Rights...

Where are all those Rightwing advocates of "smaller less intrusive govt" and "Free! Freedom! and Liberty!" when ya need 'em, anyway?

 

[db]

Now over a million people on the list, and growing.

 

[boredhokie]

Statistically, one out of every 300 people is a suspected terrorist, if that's how you extrapolate why these names are on the list. Does that come close to even making sense?

An American is more likely to be raped by a gay great white shark that was air dropped out of a plane and into their trailer than they are to even be affected by a terrorist attack. Although if you think about it, the ruling party represents hillbillies and baby boomers - both aren't really likely to travel more than 30 miles out of the area where their extended family lives. If they start having a list that prevents you from buying meth, then maybe the ruling body will start calling foul.

 

[MadRat]

The No Fly List is an extension of McCarthyism. The elder Bush is familiar with that era.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, how big a "No Fly" list would you support, Fern?

Personally, I think the whole idea is abominable. While I think that the govt may well have cause to scrutinize some travelers more than others, anybody who can pass that scrutiny should be able to fly, period.

Just one of those old-fashioned ideas based on due process and other aspects of common decency and the Bill of Rights...

Where are all those Rightwing advocates of "smaller less intrusive govt" and "Free! Freedom! and Liberty!" when ya need 'em, anyway?

Still trying to shift the topic I see.

How a big a list? I've no idea how big it should be. I think such a list should only include bonafide suspicous people, and I'm pretty sure the number they have now is off by several zero's.

It's quite obvious to everyone that it's ridiculous. When Ted Kennedy and Nelson Mandela find themselves on it what other evidence is needed? (Not to mention the huge number reveals it as bogus and and a waste).

I suspect it will collapse under it's own weight. When such a list of possible suspicious people get's that large IMO it loses any benefit it may have had.

Long ago I somewhat enjoyed flying. Might be before your time, but you could just hop out of your car and onto the plane without a hassle (pre-hijacking days, not to mention pre 9-11), and the planes had tons of empty seats (you could strecth out and sleep almost anywhere). I now despise it.

I personally know of no one, liberal or conservative, who thinks this system is effective or approves of it. For those of us who are conservative I suspect we agree it's just another example of the ineffectiveness and incompetancy of big government.

Fern

 

[The Green Bean]

ROFLMAO!! Free and Fair America! Kiss my ass!

 

[KIRBYEE]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
ROFLMAO!! Free and Fair America! Kiss my ass!

I :heart: you Bean. :lips:

The ideology of democracy is dying in the "West".

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
ROFLMAO!! Free and Fair America! Kiss my ass!

Free and Fair Pakistan?

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm not trying to shift the topic at all, Fern. I contend that the list, and the underlying reasons for its existence are entirely poitical, totally divorced from whatever threat of "Terrarism!" that may actually exist.

I personally know of no one, liberal or conservative, who thinks this system is effective or approves of it. For those of us who are conservative I suspect we agree it's just another example of the ineffectiveness and incompetancy of big government.

The "List" actually serves the intended purposes rather well- it's just that the stated purposes and real purposes aren't the same, at all.

First off, it creates the illusion that the Admin is "doing something" to pertekt us against "Terrarism!" when anybody with a lick of sense realizes that hijacking airliners to use them as weapons is no longer possible- a plane full of Girl Scouts with Nuns as chaperones would rip any would-be hijacker to pieces, or die trying.

Second, it's a very convenient way to punish political dissenters, whether that's peace activists, Ted Kennedy or anybody else the Admin or their minions choose to target. The list is secret, right? which means there's no way to know if you're on it unless they turn you away, and no way to get off of it unless you have clout, as with Kennedy.

Third, it serves to stifle dissent because many people depend on flying as part of their livelihood. Say the wrong thing at the wrong time, support some cause which the Bushistas oppose- poof! Kiss your job goodbye. Or, at least that's the impression created, quite intentionally.

MadRat is essentially correct when he refers to the no-fly list as an extension of McCarthyism. Accepting it at all is to acquiesce to authoritarian quasi-fascism, and anybody having the slightest libertarian leanings should recognize that, not apologize for it.

It's high time for small-govt conservatives to recognize that they've unwittingly been in bed with their own worst enemies for a very long time, and that when big business and big govt embrace each other, it's the little guy who'll get screwed, every last time.

That authoritarian blend isn't really ineffective at delivering what the principals want, at all, but rather intentionally ineffective at delivering what the electorate wants, running the old bamboozle play time after time, exploiting the best and worst of human nature indiscriminately to accomplish that.

You're being blinded, manipulated, and exploited all at the same time, Fern. Your loyalty to the "Conservative" banner is misplaced, because it's being flown as a false flag.