Credit card debt the next bubble

[alkemyst]

These services do not cover dental work other than basic tooth extraction.

If you have any compllications due to the tooth exaction you go to the emergency room.

This 24 year old man probably made to much to qualify for any programs anyway.

My houselhold makes to much money collectively to qualify anyway even though I am personally below poverty level.

There is a huge gap between the official poverty level and being able to afford health insurance or dental care.

Even when people do qualify for these services the quality of services is horrible to the point of negligence.

Going to a "ghetto dentist" is futile as you will ultimately have problems with "ghetto dentist" work.

You can save at most 10% by going to these places but they are notorious for high failure rates which winds up costing you more money in the long run.

There are also colleges of dental medicine that have very low cost services.

Poverty level has nothing to do with being able to afford insurance though. At poverty level we would be taking care of that.

Your 'household' being able to afford it though is the issue.

IMHO we need to start taxing those that communally live (adult children still at home, multiple non-relatives) at much higher brackets.

You people that think you are beating the system by spliting rent or mortgage 8 ways are creating the same effect that the 40-50's brought when the 'wives' started going for jobs.

It's the same thing that the 'poor' fail to understand when they talk about how we can give everyone $100k+ instead of fighting wars and that would solve all our issues. It would just increase the cost of everything.

When I was 20 or so that $125-175 I had to pay for my own health insurance I ELECTED to have cost me a much nicer car, going out more, etc. Today when I see someone with a $600 car payment crying about how they can't afford health care, it's downright laughable.

 

[alkemyst]

Our political system is based on capitalism so by your reasoning capitalism is the real problem

Capitalism sets the masses against eachother. You really did not read "Why Socialism?" by Einstein.

"The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before."

I don't think you understand the context of Einstein, the time period and the audience he was writing that for.

It's akin to a Nazi writing a manifesto that the 'party' is all that matters and we must eradicate the genetically impure.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I want profit. I know I do a better job so I want more for doing it. Why should I bust my ass for 80 hours only to make the same government stipend that the guy sitting for 40 watching a gas pump makes?

 

[1prophet]

Most LCD TV's are far less than $2000. Up until recently Walmart sold a 72" Mitsubishi DLP TV for $1300.00.

TV is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment so this actually saves people money.

The problem with that is that most people don't think logically when they are down on there luck financially and/or job wise and that purchase of that $2000 TV turns into a form of escapism and they soon crave for something more, and just like a druggy or alcoholic they won't stop until the credit card is pulled from them.

 

[alkemyst]

The problem with that is that most people don't think logically when they are down on there luck financially and/or job wise and that purchase of that $2000 TV turns into a form of escapism and they soon crave for something more, and just like a druggy or alcoholic they won't stop until the credit card is pulled from them.

QFT...you can enjoy TV on something in the $100 range used vs a 4 figure modern set.

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't think you understand the context of Einstein, the time period and the audience he was writing that for.

It's akin to a Nazi writing a manifesto that the 'party' is all that matters and we must eradicate the genetically impure.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I want profit. I know I do a better job so I want more for doing it. Why should I bust my ass for 80 hours only to make the same government stipend that the guy sitting for 40 watching a gas pump makes?

Stunning use of hyperbole, Godwin, false attribution & obfuscation. You really are desperate, desperate to maintain denial.

And, uhh, people who really do work 80 hours a week don't spend nearly as much time posting on the internet as you do here...

 

[sarsipias1234]

I don't think you understand the context of Einstein, the time period and the audience he was writing that for.

It's akin to a Nazi writing a manifesto that the 'party' is all that matters and we must eradicate the genetically impure.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I want profit. I know I do a better job so I want more for doing it. Why should I bust my ass for 80 hours only to make the same government stipend that the guy sitting for 40 watching a gas pump makes?

Einstein was a highly logical person and made many discoveries in physics that are so amazing you cannot appreciate the signifigance unless you thoroughly study the underlying mathematics.

In "Why Socialism?" he logical deduces the outcome of a capitalistic society in 1949.

Look what we have today! Exactly as Einstein said would happen has happened.

Einstein would not publish a paper merely for propaganda of selfish interest.

He was a scientist who's first published papers revolutionized the world.

We would all be better to heed the words of this genius of a human being.

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot have a Socialist society and still reward those people who choose to stand out and work harder.

Socialism about meeting every single persons needs equally so that all people can be free to pursue what they want equally.

 

[Jaskalas]

By the sound of the first two pages alone, it sounds like we're only beginning our economic collapse.

 

[alkemyst]

Stunning use of hyperbole, Godwin, false attribution & obfuscation. You really are desperate, desperate to maintain denial.

And, uhh, people who really do work 80 hours a week don't spend nearly as much time posting on the internet as you do here...

WTF do you mean?

I'd never fucking work 80 works a week every week in today's system...I'd pretty much have to in you and that other dude's socialist dogma.

loser.

 

[alkemyst]

Einstein was a highly logical person and made many discoveries in physics that are so amazing you cannot appreciate the signifigance unless you thoroughly study the underlying mathematics.

In "Why Socialism?" he logical deduces the outcome of a capitalistic society in 1949.

Look what we have today! Exactly as Einstein said would happen has happened.

Einstein would not publish a paper merely for propaganda of selfish interest.

He was a scientist who's first published papers revolutionized the world.

We would all be better to heed the words of this genius of a human being.

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot have a Socialist society and still reward those people who choose to stand out and work harder.

Socialism about meeting every single persons needs equally so that all people can be free to pursue what they want equally.

I was an engineering major, y0. MIT actually sent someone to me to interview me.

I am a genius myself. Doesn't mean I understand everything.

you need to re-read my post before about the time and place he made those comments.

Also in your same arguement some slacker like you would still be without a TV and stuff.

 

[sarsipias1234]

I was an engineering major, y0. MIT actually sent someone to me to interview me.

I am a genius myself. Doesn't mean I understand everything.

you need to re-read my post before about the time and place he made those comments.

Also in your same arguement some slacker like you would still be without a TV and stuff.

You are getting paid a rich income to defend your rich living standard on Anandtech forums.

You are inherently biased and are just posting your own personal propaganda of self interest. This is apparent in your refusal to listen to Einstein's logical reasoning of the reality of social systems.

You can't declare yourself a genius as that would be narcissistic and subsequently biased.

Einstein never thought himself a genius.

People came to the conclusion that he must be a genius from his work.

I am not a slacker. I work harder than most people in California with exception of the illegal immigrants.

If I were a slacker would I be so articulate and well read?

Since you attacked me personally I will now put you on ignore.

 

[alkemyst]

Thanks...Einstein was a genius though...you probably work 'hard' because you don't think.

Excellent I am on ignore though. Responding to your entitlement ignorance was painful.

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't think you understand the context of Einstein, the time period and the audience he was writing that for.

It's akin to a Nazi writing a manifesto that the 'party' is all that matters and we must eradicate the genetically impure.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I want profit. I know I do a better job so I want more for doing it. Why should I bust my ass for 80 hours only to make the same government stipend that the guy sitting for 40 watching a gas pump makes?

Stunning use of hyperbole, Godwin, false attribution & obfuscation. You really are desperate, desperate to maintain denial.

And, uhh, people who really do work 80 hours a week don't spend nearly as much time posting on the internet as you do here...

WTF do you mean?

I'd never fucking work 80 works a week every week in today's system...I'd pretty much have to in you and that other dude's socialist dogma.

loser.

Heh. Then where the Hell did your reference to working 80hrs/week in the first post above come from, anyway? Was that supposed to be about something other than your imagination?

I mistakenly thought it was, or was supposed to be.

What socialist dogma? Obviously, there's one in your head, but it has nothing to do with what's been offered here.

The fiscal mechanics of our society have been deeply altered by the right wing ideology of Reaganomics in the international marketplace. Capitalist mechanisms that push money to the top have been enhanced, while those that tend to distribute it back downward have been damaged & destroyed. Our society splits along the lines of credit and debt. In the not too distant past, Unions could demand higher wages & better benefits, and get them, dragging the rest of working people along. Tariffs prevented offshoring of capital and jobs, and high federal income taxes at the top limited the power of wealth, preventing runaway inequality. Housing prices didn't boom & bust, as with the Ownership society flimflam.

Instead of wage & benefit increases, working people got bigger lines of credit. Instead of stable employment, the companies they work for got bought, looted & sold by private equity firms. Instead of entry & low level manufacturing jobs, those got offshored & automated, along with the commerce supporting them. Instead of housing that was actually affordable, they got McMansions in the Exurbs that they didn't have a prayer of keeping after the introductory interest rate ran its course.

Instead of some sense of fiscal responsibility, they got Reagan/GHWB, who quadrupled the debt, and then they got GWB who doubled it again. And it all happened because a very small but important slice of the population, the upper middle class, was left unaffected or slightly improved by such policies.

And we got the S&L fiasco, thanks to deregulation, followed by the LTCM affair, which almost brought down the financial system, the tech bust, and the crowning glory of financial capitalism, the Ownership Society & its aftermath.

We do have socialism of a sort, socialism for the Rich, where we privatize profits & socialize losses, because, admittedly, America does need her Rich. The problem is that they seem to think that they don't need the rest of us except when they need a bailout, or when they want to maintain high profits & grand illusions by extending credit in ways that are unwarranted & abusive.

We've entered a period where redistribution will enter a new phase, a disorganized one of debt default. People simply won't be able to pay, something that's already happening wrt housing, something that rightfully should have destroyed their creditors, per capitalist dogma, yet hasn't because of the GWB sponsored bank bailout. We really should have nationalized the bastards, as was done in Sweden in the early 90's- fat chance of that with "free market capitalists" running the govt, huh? When their banker buddies showed up raving drunk, covered in blood, they put it off to excitable boys, cleaned 'em up a little, put money in their pockets, sent 'em out to have some more fun.

It was just the first of many hostage taking adventures executed by Repubs, the Go-fers of the wealthy, with many more to come.

If the people at the top get the benefits of socialism, why not the rest of us?

 

[alkemyst]

You are thinking socialism is going to be the cure all for bipartizan politics.

No one wants to bail you out.

However, yes most of the poor's problem is they overspend. By overspending that affects supply and demand...prices increase and the poor feel victimized so go into debt to stay above their paygrade.

 

[mizzou]

Mark me up as one of the people who puts EVERYTHING on a credit card, and pays it off each month, just to rack up the most amount of points

technically I've increased my CC use by 200%, but my net loss of $ is not changed

 

[sarsipias1234]

I choose not participate in debt at all.

Debt is enslavement.

 

[Jhhnn]

You are thinking socialism is going to be the cure all for bipartizan politics.

No one wants to bail you out.

However, yes most of the poor's problem is they overspend. By overspending that affects supply and demand...prices increase and the poor feel victimized so go into debt to stay above their paygrade.

More false attribution. I don't need a bailout, likely never will. We have strong positive net worth by middle class standards, along with skills & steady employment. Combined income of my wife and myself puts us right at the 90th % of family income. We've worked hard and been lucky, very conservative with our earnings. If everybody spent the way we don't, the economy would collapse.

Really poor people don't overspend. They can't, because they have no credit, often don't even have bank accounts. They pay cash. It's working and middle class people who get caught in the credit trap. Well, and Wall St bankers, hedge funds & private equity outfits who over-leverage themselves in search of big fast bucks.

Wall St borrowed money, exploited the principles of fractional reserve banking to create the ownership society bubble by lending to people who couldn't afford to pay the vig, then got bailed out by the govt and the FRB. Privatize profits, socialize losses. Rather than insisting that the wealthy, as a class, pay higher taxes as compensation for the favor, the current rage is to make the rest of us pay, again, through the mechanism of austerity. The books are dangerously out of balance, the bottom 50% isn't paid well enough to keep their heads above water all of the time, let alone to pay federal income tax, so somebody has to pay, and Repubs will be damned if it'll be the people who've benefited the most, the true Bush constituency.

Cut, cut, cut! will leave them intact, even if it ruins the rest of us, and that's the way their paid for public servants will try to make it, and the way that apparently a fair % of the populace is dumb enough to support, too.

 

[sarsipias1234]

I understand the Republican's reasoning that the only way to deal with fraud and waste is to cut budgets.

There is so much waste and fraud in our government that even if we cut back $4 Trillion dollars the actual negative impact will be minimal and effect only a minority of the population.

However this minority of the population will wind up being the poor or the soon to be poor.

 

[werepossum]

I am doing very well financially now. I was doing very well financially right when I withdrew from college in the early/mid 1990s as well. I bought a premium home at the time in a upscale community.

However my first few years as a kid had my parents struggling. I learned one SACRIFICES things not EXPECTS to have what everyone else does.

Fast forward to my divorce a few years after I bought that nice home, having to fire sale it due to unreasonable demands...taking on about $50k in debt (after losing my entire savings as well) and then deciding to change my life by going back to college. I took on a lot more debt. I sold my new 1997 GTI VR6 so I could buy a 1996 Saturn SC2...I didn't have a new TV, I sold off most of my stereo/electronic toys, my wieght set, my nice bike, pretty much all my shit. I didn't go out to eat ever, I did go out 1 or 2 nights a week to free bars/clubs and nursed 2-3 beers a night tops at usually $1/beer + I still left $1 for a tip usually. After a while that paid off at my usual water holes and I'd get comp'd and if I had a chick lined up sometimes that pricey drink they wanted would just get the 'wink'. Still I had to lose a lot of chick especially going back to college in Palm Beach where most kids are still collecting an allowance. I then met a chick that didn't seem care about money, had a decent job of her own. After a while she wanted to get our own place. 2 years later we got the dog and I was about to graduate. I don't know if it was because she knew their would be no job market for me or just wanted some financial assistance (on my loan dollar) to save. However I found out she under reported her income by 50% to me and was bleeding off our savings to the tune of being able to buy a new mustang GT and put a nice down payment on a town house. Turns out she was pissed my dad (her mom's boss) had a better house, boat, etc than her parent's and somehow I was some vendetta.

Then post-graduation the IT market was shit. I wasn't making what I expected...my first job was $17.68/hr with no benefits...I was making $12.50 as a high school student 10 years prior....and had previous school loans plus that debt from the divorce still on my shoulders. I was pretty honest with it all and most clowned on me here about things. I was making a good wage, but the debt was a bit steep (my payments I was making were $2500 usually much higher than my minimums and that required a lot of sacrificing).

Fast forward to me deciding to tough it out and do some personal development. I doubled my salary and then again. I am hoping to continue this and in 5 years double it another time. I still don't have a flat panel TV. I have a Toshiba CX32G60 32" set I bought in 1995-1997. I will probably buy one though around the holidays this year.

I turned $80k+ in debt to $0 now. I been there and done it. I am tired of people crying how they deserve more. No one deserves shit in the US. You need to strike your claim and make it yourself.

You want a socialist regieme expect to eventually get a bike, a 13" B&W CRT TV or maybe just a tabletop radio, a bag of beans, a bag of rice, a ring of cheese, two sticks of butter and a couple loaves of bread. You may get a gallon of milk a week or a box of powdered milk for the month.

Very well said, especially the bolded, and congrats for seeing what needed to be done, making the necessary sacrifices, and doing it. Calls for socialism aren't about equality, they are merely cries of "I cannot or will not do what you do, but I want your stuff." These people fail to realize that socialism is not bringing everyone up to upper middle class, it is merely bringing everyone down to lower class equality. Everyone except the party leaders, who take the place of the wealthy. Socialism is the even distribution of misery.

 

[Jhhnn]

Very well said, especially the bolded, and congrats for seeing what needed to be done, making the necessary sacrifices, and doing it. Calls for socialism aren't about equality, they are merely cries of "I cannot or will not do what you do, but I want your stuff." These people fail to realize that socialism is not bringing everyone up to upper middle class, it is merely bringing everyone down to lower class equality. Everyone except the party leaders, who take the place of the wealthy. Socialism is the even distribution of misery.

You really have no idea of the economic forces at work. If we allow the shift of income & employment that's occurred over the last 30 years of world market deregulated Reaganomics to continue for another 30 years, there won't be a recognizable middle class in this country at all.

I recognize that the rhetoric you've adopted makes you feel good, that it's emotionally satisfying in a smug sort of way, but you need to remember that your heroes will put you on the dinner menu along with everybody else when it suits their purposes. They eat their own.

 

[alkemyst]

You really have no idea of the economic forces at work. If we allow the shift of income & employment that's occurred over the last 30 years of world market deregulated Reaganomics to continue for another 30 years, there won't be a recognizable middle class in this country at all.

I recognize that the rhetoric you've adopted makes you feel good, that it's emotionally satisfying in a smug sort of way, but you need to remember that your heroes will put you on the dinner menu along with everybody else when it suits their purposes. They eat their own.

Unfortunately what I believe has happened is there is not middle class anymore. You have those that want to succeed and those that what to be taken care off.

Hell, you have the masses wanting Socialism to happen thinking that 'right sizing' everyone is somehow going to create an Utopia of everyone with a large screen TV, gaming rig, eating out on the weekends and catching movies, the nice set of new cars in the driveway along with the boat and motorcycle, etc.

We have gone from a society of everyone looking to do better to move forward (and some not being lucky) to most expecting someone else gives them that life since they deserve it.

You are one of those people, I am really curious what education, background and current job you have. I am thinking you are one of those that wasted their life fucking around and are now in their 40's with a debt albatross that will take them to at least 65 to pay off with no room for retirement savings.

 

[Jhhnn]

Unfortunately what I believe has happened is there is not middle class anymore. You have those that want to succeed and those that what to be taken care off.

Hell, you have the masses wanting Socialism to happen thinking that 'right sizing' everyone is somehow going to create an Utopia of everyone with a large screen TV, gaming rig, eating out on the weekends and catching movies, the nice set of new cars in the driveway along with the boat and motorcycle, etc.

We have gone from a society of everyone looking to do better to move forward (and some not being lucky) to most expecting someone else gives them that life since they deserve it.

You are one of those people, I am really curious what education, background and current job you have. I am thinking you are one of those that wasted their life fucking around and are now in their 40's with a debt albatross that will take them to at least 65 to pay off with no room for retirement savings.

You don't even read, do you? See post #141, above. Your denial and sense of self righteousness are all encompassing, aren't they?

Whatever assumptions and aspersions you assign to me are wrong, a product of your need to create self importance and bolster your ego.

 

[1prophet]

Mark me up as one of the people who puts EVERYTHING on a credit card, and pays it off each month, just to rack up the most amount of points

technically I've increased my CC use by 200%, but my net loss of $ is not changed

And if everyone was like you the credit card companies would charge interest on your purchases like they do for cash advances, starting on the day of the transaction.😉

 

[alkemyst]

You don't even read, do you? See post #141, above. Your denial and sense of self righteousness are all encompassing, aren't they?

Whatever assumptions and aspersions you assign to me are wrong, a product of your need to create self importance and bolster your ego.

right your points

We have strong positive net worth by middle class standards, along with skills & steady employment. Combined income of my wife and myself puts us right at the 90th % of family income.

then you go one to say if everyone did what you did, they'd crush the country....

You really aren't what you say you are...lolz.

 

[Jhhnn]

right your points



then you go one to say if everyone did what you did, they'd crush the country....

You really aren't what you say you are...lolz.

And you're truly desperate to avoid the fact that trickledown economics and the lies necessary to maintain the illusions are falling apart. The illusion has been maintained by ever increasing debt. other than at the tippytop. Federal, State, Local govt, personal, & business debt.

With the credit bubble & collapse of the Ownership Society, The Bush Admin may have finally screwed the pooch, because that debt is now largely uncollectable, and will become even more so as unemployment inevitably increases. Business sees no reason to hire people- hell, they see reasons to lay off even more as federal spending decreases, and they're making record profits, anyway. Extended UI benefits are currently running out everywhere, striking another blow against consumption. Job creation is non-existent, despite extended tax cuts for the fabled Job Creators.

We're just starting into this, not coming out of it, at all, so many of the social conceptualizations employed by smug think they have somethings will be shattered in the process, just as they were in the early 1930's.

I saw this coming, and planned accordingly. I've done the small things I could to prevent it, as any citizen could, and take no joy in others' misfortune. I'm very near retirement, but still have teenage sons and a younger wife who'll need my help in the future. They'll go to college, and emerge debt free, because I've saved the money to pay for it. My wife will carry on, with her own retirement accounts, skills, unencumbered property and the residuals from my pension, which will amount to more than 50% of current earnings.

I've spent my entire adult life working on machinery, and it's taken a toll on me physically, so I'll need to retire in a few more years. I'm fortunate to be able to do so, and angry when I see the opportunities I've had, some I didn't have the sense to take, denied to younger people because of unfathomable greed by the people at the top of the economic foodchain. Like this-

http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2010/08/16/obama_invades_poland

 

[alkemyst]

And you're truly desperate to avoid the fact that trickledown economics and the lies necessary to maintain the illusions are falling apart. The illusion has been maintained by ever increasing debt. other than at the tippytop. Federal, State, Local govt, personal, & business debt.

desperate? hardly...where did I buy into trickledown economics anywhere. The problem is like I said is that you have two groups in the country now. Those that want to work and those that want to be taken care off. The middle class is being squeezed out by this fact.

With the credit bubble & collapse of the Ownership Society, The Bush Admin may have finally screwed the pooch, because that debt is now largely uncollectable, and will become even more so as unemployment inevitably increases. Business sees no reason to hire people- hell, they see reasons to lay off even more as federal spending decreases, and they're making record profits, anyway. Extended UI benefits are currently running out everywhere, striking another blow against consumption. Job creation is non-existent, despite extended tax cuts for the fabled Job Creators.

I think you are too tied into blaming someone other than the people for these problems.

We're just starting into this, not coming out of it, at all, so many of the social conceptualizations employed by smug think they have somethings will be shattered in the process, just as they were in the early 1930's.

I saw this coming, and planned accordingly. I've done the small things I could to prevent it, as any citizen could, and take no joy in others' misfortune. I'm very near retirement, but still have teenage sons and a younger wife who'll need my help in the future. They'll go to college, and emerge debt free, because I've saved the money to pay for it. My wife will carry on, with her own retirement accounts, skills, unencumbered property and the residuals from my pension, which will amount to more than 50% of current earnings.

You didn't plan crap, you are union apparently (another big problem in our country paying the barely educated $150k to run a machine). Your pension is the only thing that saved you...someone else negotiated that for you and you simply were lucky to get the job.

I've spent my entire adult life working on machinery, and it's taken a toll on me physically, so I'll need to retire in a few more years. I'm fortunate to be able to do so, and angry when I see the opportunities I've had, some I didn't have the sense to take, denied to younger people because of unfathomable greed by the people at the top of the economic foodchain. Like this-

http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2010/08/16/obama_invades_poland

Toll on you physically? With OSHA and all the other safe-workspace BS, mandatory breaks, hour limits, etc...you hardly worked hard. Let me guess though: at 55 shoot for disablility and retire with that 50% pension plus another 50% in disability.