beatle
Diamond Member
- Apr 2, 2001
- 5,661
- 5
- 81
Personally I don't care about the DACs on the soundcard if you're able to encode everything into Dolby. Good, immersive sound positioning algorithms are all that really matter when the DAC is on a receiver or speaker system. In addition, a single 12 ft. Toslink was far cheaper than the $36 I blew on 3 pair of RCA jacks and 1/8" to stereo RCA plug adapters. Plus, I get no signal degradation on the way to my receiver with the Toslink connector. My setup is obviously in the minority of most users, but the Soundstorm was just perfect for this.
You lost me. Audigy vs NF1, Audigy 2 vs NF2 they're same year/generation, and yes nVidia does more with less as I've already said. I don't see what point yer tryin to make.......
Thorin
It is a common misconception even today that EAX is those cheesy effects presets in the console. They were included originally because few games had internal support upon introduction of the Live!. Creative only just recently finally removed the game presets to eliminate confusion.
Even if A3D had the potential to create a better user experience and even if the user was willing to purchase the hardware does not mean the developers were willing to program for it on their own dime when easier alternatives were available.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,783
- 6,341
- 126
Make no mistake, A3D did create a better user experience. Many times in CS I was able to pinpoint where someone was just by listening. Many people died and I survived, because I heard them behind a door or walking nearby. There was a reason that reviewers and Users loved A3D, it was awesome.
There were a lot of developers using A3D, even after Aureal went out of business. Many dropped A3D after Aureal went out of business, but that is true of any technology that is no longer supported.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,783
- 6,341
- 126
Originally posted by: thorin
Ya Aureal didn't have huge CPU overheads or anythingThat's why it was adopted by everyone so quickly and the company had soooooo much money to fend off the attack........
But that's just how I saw it........
Thorin
The cpu overhead issue may have turned some people off to the cards, but it shouldn't have. I lost 2-3 fps with A3D on, hardly a performance breaker.
Creative Labs is and was a huge company with a number and great variety of products, yes they had a lot of money and could afford to sue Aureal out of business. The Live was inferior to the Aureal cards in almost everyway, audio fidelity was better on the Aureal cards, 3D positioning actually existed on the Aureal cards, and the Drivers were superior on the Aureal cards. EAX had lower CPU utilization, but it wasn't 3D positioning(newer versions have 3D positioning, but not when Aureal existed).
That's because Creative used DirectSound3D for 3D positioning. Early EAX versions had nothing to do with 3D audio positioning, but rather environmental effects. Even the latest versions of EAX is used in conjunction with DirectSound3D, or OpenAL to provide game audio.
It's funny how I see the same person banging his head on a brick wall over and over here.
1.) It's already been established that a lawsuit was not the cause of Aureal's downfall.
2.) It's already been established that EAX, from its inception, was more than a reverb algorithm.
3.) " " A3D's positioning was superior to EAX's positioning (see, 2.) at the time.
4.) " " A3D's CPU usage was higher, 10 to 15 percent in some cases. See old Firingsquad articles, among others.
Anyone contradicting or repeating 1 through 4 yet again is just wasting space in this thread. It would be nice if some real discussion took place, and not just baseless claims of superiority, one way or the other.
Just to clarify, A3D's SDK describes their API as
"To calculate the acoustical effects of the 3D environment, A3D's Wavetracing engine needs you to define the position, shape and acoustic material type of the polygonal elements you want it to model. These elements might be based loosely on the visual elements of your simulated space, but shouldn't have as much detail. Wavetracing requires CPU cycles and since only relatively large objects affect sound, you can keep computational overhead low by only sending large, acoustically significant polygons to the Wavetracing engine."
EAX was more into obstruction / muffling / echoing, but it did more than simply reverberate. It also lacked A3D's detailed HRTFs. I don't know what EAX 3 and 4 have brought to the table.
Doom 3 has a custom 5 channel sound engine, written mostly by Graeme Devine, that does all audio processing/HRTF calculation on the CPU. It really doesn't matter what soundcard you have, as long as it can decode the digital stream..or you have your receiver doing the decoding. This is the way I prefer it. It's much like the move from fixed-function pipelines in graphics, or maybe more appropriately a software renderer.
Doom 3 is the only game that matters, anyway.
1.) It's already been established that a lawsuit was not the cause of Aureal's downfall.
2.) It's already been established that EAX, from its inception, was more than a reverb algorithm.
3.) " " A3D's positioning was superior to EAX's positioning (see, 2.) at the time.
4.) " " A3D's CPU usage was higher, 10 to 15 percent in some cases. See old Firingsquad articles, among others.
Anyone contradicting or repeating 1 through 4 yet again is just wasting space in this thread. It would be nice if some real discussion took place, and not just baseless claims of superiority, one way or the other.
Just to clarify, A3D's SDK describes their API as
"To calculate the acoustical effects of the 3D environment, A3D's Wavetracing engine needs you to define the position, shape and acoustic material type of the polygonal elements you want it to model. These elements might be based loosely on the visual elements of your simulated space, but shouldn't have as much detail. Wavetracing requires CPU cycles and since only relatively large objects affect sound, you can keep computational overhead low by only sending large, acoustically significant polygons to the Wavetracing engine."
EAX was more into obstruction / muffling / echoing, but it did more than simply reverberate. It also lacked A3D's detailed HRTFs. I don't know what EAX 3 and 4 have brought to the table.
Doom 3 has a custom 5 channel sound engine, written mostly by Graeme Devine, that does all audio processing/HRTF calculation on the CPU. It really doesn't matter what soundcard you have, as long as it can decode the digital stream..or you have your receiver doing the decoding. This is the way I prefer it. It's much like the move from fixed-function pipelines in graphics, or maybe more appropriately a software renderer.
Doom 3 is the only game that matters, anyway. Yes, you are being unfair.
it was Creative that could not compete, not Aureal - that's why they resorted to slimey legal tactics to eliminate the competition.
As for the CPU overhead, at the time Aureal went under CPU's were starting to become much faster than they were when the technology first appeared. Also it takes time that Creative ensured Aureal never had to write well optimised and CPU efficient drivers. You don't know that A3D would always have been CPU heavy if driver development had continued.
Creative can rot in hell.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,783
- 6,341
- 126
Originally posted by: Cat
It's funny how I see the same person banging his head on a brick wall over and over here.
1.) It's already been established that a lawsuit was not the cause of Aureal's downfall.
2.) It's already been established that EAX, from its inception, was more than a reverb algorithm.
3.) " " A3D's positioning was superior to EAX's positioning (see, 2.) at the time.
4.) " " A3D's CPU usage was higher, 10 to 15 percent in some cases. See old Firingsquad articles, among others.
Anyone contradicting or repeating 1 through 4 yet again is just wasting space in this thread. It would be nice if some real discussion took place, and not just baseless claims of superiority, one way or the other.
Just to clarify, A3D's SDK describes their API as
"To calculate the acoustical effects of the 3D environment, A3D's Wavetracing engine needs you to define the position, shape and acoustic material type of the polygonal elements you want it to model. These elements might be based loosely on the visual elements of your simulated space, but shouldn't have as much detail. Wavetracing requires CPU cycles and since only relatively large objects affect sound, you can keep computational overhead low by only sending large, acoustically significant polygons to the Wavetracing engine."
EAX was more into obstruction / muffling / echoing, but it did more than simply reverberate. It also lacked A3D's detailed HRTFs. I don't know what EAX 3 and 4 have brought to the table.
Doom 3 has a custom 5 channel sound engine, written mostly by Graeme Devine, that does all audio processing/HRTF calculation on the CPU. It really doesn't matter what soundcard you have, as long as it can decode the digital stream..or you have your receiver doing the decoding. This is the way I prefer it. It's much like the move from fixed-function pipelines in graphics, or maybe more appropriately a software renderer.
Yes, I am banging my head against the wall(assume you meant me) and it is quite pointless as Aureal is dead and gone.
1) It has? It has been stated, but not established
2) EAX was "Environmental" audio, not positioning, but effects such as echo or other effects that change how a sound sounds, but it was not Positioning
3) Yes, as EAX and A3D were different and attempted to do different things
4) Yes, CPU utilization was higher, but the effects(EAX/A3D) were not the same nor had the same purpose
Environmental merely implies that the sounds are now located in some sort of environment, this covers where you are in the environment, and what kind.
EAX 1.0
Although DirectSound provides a number of sophisticated 3D aural effects
such as Doppler effect, rolloff, interaural intensity and time differences, it lacks
one very important effect: reverberation. Without reverb, a listener can tell
where each sound source is located, but has no idea of the environment in whic
the sources are located. A sword clanked in a small padded cell should sound
much different than the same sword clanked in a large cathedral, and it?s reverb
that tells the story. Without reverb, sound sources are naked and lack
warmth?the aural equivalent of a visual world without shadows, haze, and
independent light sources.
EAX?s Solutions
Creative?s EAX property sets add reverb to DirectSound. As DirectSound
property sets, they use the DirectSound API and the COM (Component Object
Model) used throughout the DirectX environment. You can create an EAX
interface for each sound source in the 3D aural world and set the reverb amount
for individual sound sources. You can also control the overall quality of the
reverb the listener hears, tweaking reverberation factors such as:
? Apparent size of the room surrounding the listener
? Amount and quality of the reverb?s decay
? Volume of total reverberation.
These effects combine to add a visceral realism to DirectSound?s 3D aural
environment, an often subliminal context that can give an emotional depth to
the 3D world of the player. All of this works even when the visual component
of the 3D world is out of sight. Think, for example, of a single candle next to a
pool of water in dark surroundings. When a drop of water hits the pool and you
hear long and luscious reverb on the plink of the drop, your mind senses the
vast cavern surrounding the pool even though you can?t see it.
If you don?t care for reverb in some circumstances, you can turn it off on a persound-
source basis or turn it off altogether.
3D Effects
Because EAX is thoroughly integrated with DirectSound, it enhances the 3D
aural world created by DirectSound. When you move a sound source in
relation to the listener, EAX automatically adjusts the reverb for the sound
source (increasing the ratio of reverb for a source moving away, for example) to
make the reverb sound realistic for a moving sound source. None of
DirectSound?s 3D effects are lost in the mix; they?re augmented with reverb
calculated to enhance the feeling of three dimensions.
EAX 2.0
WHAT?S NEW IN EAX 2.0
Version 2.0 of EAX adds significant enhancements to version 1.0. These
enhancements provide much more detail to the aural world perceived by the
listener. They also give programmers more power for sound design by controlling
specific environmental audio effects.
More Environmental Reverberation Control
EAX 2.0 offers a complete set of reverberation parameters that allow you to
control the intensity and delay of reflections, to continuously adjust the
environment size, and to set the direct path and reverberation filters for each sound
source. These direct controls allow dedicated sound designers to tweak
environmental reverberation to get precisely the aural surroundings they desire.
EAX can also make your programming work easier by automatically taking care
of these parameters for you.
Distance Effects
To help provide a better perception of listener-to-sound-source distance, EAX 2.0
provides several different modes of automatic distance-effects management. They
manage attenuation and filtering effects that change according to the distance
between the listener and a sound source. The distance effects include:
n A method of simulating the natural statistical behavior of reverberation in
enclosed spaces
n A reverberation rolloff factor that allows you to customize or modify the
statistical reverberation model
n An adjustable air absorption model that filters out high frequencies with
increasing distance. (You can use this to simulate moisture in the air such
as high humidity or fog.)
6 The Environmental Audio Extensions
Occlusion and Obstruction Effects
EAX 2.0 introduces occlusion and obstruction properties that provide aural cues
about objects and walls that come between sound sources and the listener.
Occlusion occurs when a wall that separates two environments comes between
source and listener. There?s no open-air sound path for sound to go from source
to listener, so the sound source is completely muffled because it?s transmitted
through the wall. EAX occlusion properties provide parameters that adjust wall
transmission characteristics to simulate different wall materials and thickness.
You can, for example, use occlusion properties to make a voice or noise sound
very realistically as if it were coming from behind a door or from outside the
listener?s house.
Obstruction occurs when source and listener are in the same room but there?s an
object directly between them. There?s no direct sound path from source to
listener, but the reverberation comes to the listener unaffected. The result is
altered direct-path sound with unaltered reverberation. EAX obstruction
properties can simulate sound diffraction around the obstacle or sound
transmission through the obstacle, which provide rich aural cues about the nature
of the obstruction. You can, for example, use obstruction properties to make a
voice sound as if it were coming through a thin curtain or from behind a large
pillar.
Source Directivity
DirectSound and OpenAL already offer control of source directivity, where a
sound source is stronger in one direction than in all others?like a trumpet, for
example, that?s strongest in the direction of the bell and attenuated to the sides and
behind the bell. DirectSound and OpenAL set the directivity across all frequencies
equally, which usually is not the case in the real world.
EAX makes source directivity sound much more natural by allowing you to make
sound sources more directive at high frequencies than at low frequencies. This
makes the sound of directional sources such as a voice, a loudspeaker, or a horn,
sound much more realistic as the listener moves around the source?or as the
source rotates or flies by the listener.
If you still think EAX is only reverb, I have nothing more convincing than this, and I give up.
EDIT: I hate Creative with a passion, but nothing better currently exists for my purposes. Please don't mistake this for love.
Although DirectSound provides a number of sophisticated 3D aural effects
such as Doppler effect, rolloff, interaural intensity and time differences, it lacks
one very important effect: reverberation. Without reverb, a listener can tell
where each sound source is located, but has no idea of the environment in whic
the sources are located. A sword clanked in a small padded cell should sound
much different than the same sword clanked in a large cathedral, and it?s reverb
that tells the story. Without reverb, sound sources are naked and lack
warmth?the aural equivalent of a visual world without shadows, haze, and
independent light sources.
EAX?s Solutions
Creative?s EAX property sets add reverb to DirectSound. As DirectSound
property sets, they use the DirectSound API and the COM (Component Object
Model) used throughout the DirectX environment. You can create an EAX
interface for each sound source in the 3D aural world and set the reverb amount
for individual sound sources. You can also control the overall quality of the
reverb the listener hears, tweaking reverberation factors such as:
? Apparent size of the room surrounding the listener
? Amount and quality of the reverb?s decay
? Volume of total reverberation.
These effects combine to add a visceral realism to DirectSound?s 3D aural
environment, an often subliminal context that can give an emotional depth to
the 3D world of the player. All of this works even when the visual component
of the 3D world is out of sight. Think, for example, of a single candle next to a
pool of water in dark surroundings. When a drop of water hits the pool and you
hear long and luscious reverb on the plink of the drop, your mind senses the
vast cavern surrounding the pool even though you can?t see it.
If you don?t care for reverb in some circumstances, you can turn it off on a persound-
source basis or turn it off altogether.
3D Effects
Because EAX is thoroughly integrated with DirectSound, it enhances the 3D
aural world created by DirectSound. When you move a sound source in
relation to the listener, EAX automatically adjusts the reverb for the sound
source (increasing the ratio of reverb for a source moving away, for example) to
make the reverb sound realistic for a moving sound source. None of
DirectSound?s 3D effects are lost in the mix; they?re augmented with reverb
calculated to enhance the feeling of three dimensions.
EAX 2.0
WHAT?S NEW IN EAX 2.0
Version 2.0 of EAX adds significant enhancements to version 1.0. These
enhancements provide much more detail to the aural world perceived by the
listener. They also give programmers more power for sound design by controlling
specific environmental audio effects.
More Environmental Reverberation Control
EAX 2.0 offers a complete set of reverberation parameters that allow you to
control the intensity and delay of reflections, to continuously adjust the
environment size, and to set the direct path and reverberation filters for each sound
source. These direct controls allow dedicated sound designers to tweak
environmental reverberation to get precisely the aural surroundings they desire.
EAX can also make your programming work easier by automatically taking care
of these parameters for you.
Distance Effects
To help provide a better perception of listener-to-sound-source distance, EAX 2.0
provides several different modes of automatic distance-effects management. They
manage attenuation and filtering effects that change according to the distance
between the listener and a sound source. The distance effects include:
n A method of simulating the natural statistical behavior of reverberation in
enclosed spaces
n A reverberation rolloff factor that allows you to customize or modify the
statistical reverberation model
n An adjustable air absorption model that filters out high frequencies with
increasing distance. (You can use this to simulate moisture in the air such
as high humidity or fog.)
6 The Environmental Audio Extensions
Occlusion and Obstruction Effects
EAX 2.0 introduces occlusion and obstruction properties that provide aural cues
about objects and walls that come between sound sources and the listener.
Occlusion occurs when a wall that separates two environments comes between
source and listener. There?s no open-air sound path for sound to go from source
to listener, so the sound source is completely muffled because it?s transmitted
through the wall. EAX occlusion properties provide parameters that adjust wall
transmission characteristics to simulate different wall materials and thickness.
You can, for example, use occlusion properties to make a voice or noise sound
very realistically as if it were coming from behind a door or from outside the
listener?s house.
Obstruction occurs when source and listener are in the same room but there?s an
object directly between them. There?s no direct sound path from source to
listener, but the reverberation comes to the listener unaffected. The result is
altered direct-path sound with unaltered reverberation. EAX obstruction
properties can simulate sound diffraction around the obstacle or sound
transmission through the obstacle, which provide rich aural cues about the nature
of the obstruction. You can, for example, use obstruction properties to make a
voice sound as if it were coming through a thin curtain or from behind a large
pillar.
Source Directivity
DirectSound and OpenAL already offer control of source directivity, where a
sound source is stronger in one direction than in all others?like a trumpet, for
example, that?s strongest in the direction of the bell and attenuated to the sides and
behind the bell. DirectSound and OpenAL set the directivity across all frequencies
equally, which usually is not the case in the real world.
EAX makes source directivity sound much more natural by allowing you to make
sound sources more directive at high frequencies than at low frequencies. This
makes the sound of directional sources such as a voice, a loudspeaker, or a horn,
sound much more realistic as the listener moves around the source?or as the
source rotates or flies by the listener.
If you still think EAX is only reverb, I have nothing more convincing than this, and I give up.
EDIT: I hate Creative with a passion, but nothing better currently exists for my purposes. Please don't mistake this for love.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,783
- 6,341
- 126
Originally posted by: Cat
EAX 1.0
Although DirectSound provides a number of sophisticated 3D aural effects
such as Doppler effect, rolloff, interaural intensity and time differences, it lacks
one very important effect: reverberation. Without reverb, a listener can tell
where each sound source is located, but has no idea of the environment in whic
the sources are located. A sword clanked in a small padded cell should sound
much different than the same sword clanked in a large cathedral, and it?s reverb
that tells the story. Without reverb, sound sources are naked and lack
warmth?the aural equivalent of a visual world without shadows, haze, and
independent light sources.
EAX?s Solutions
Creative?s EAX property sets add reverb to DirectSound. As DirectSound
property sets, they use the DirectSound API and the COM (Component Object
Model) used throughout the DirectX environment. You can create an EAX
interface for each sound source in the 3D aural world and set the reverb amount
for individual sound sources. You can also control the overall quality of the
reverb the listener hears, tweaking reverberation factors such as:
? Apparent size of the room surrounding the listener
? Amount and quality of the reverb?s decay
? Volume of total reverberation.
These effects combine to add a visceral realism to DirectSound?s 3D aural
environment, an often subliminal context that can give an emotional depth to
the 3D world of the player. All of this works even when the visual component
of the 3D world is out of sight. Think, for example, of a single candle next to a
pool of water in dark surroundings. When a drop of water hits the pool and you
hear long and luscious reverb on the plink of the drop, your mind senses the
vast cavern surrounding the pool even though you can?t see it.
If you don?t care for reverb in some circumstances, you can turn it off on a persound-
source basis or turn it off altogether.
3D Effects
Because EAX is thoroughly integrated with DirectSound, it enhances the 3D
aural world created by DirectSound. When you move a sound source in
relation to the listener, EAX automatically adjusts the reverb for the sound
source (increasing the ratio of reverb for a source moving away, for example) to
make the reverb sound realistic for a moving sound source. None of
DirectSound?s 3D effects are lost in the mix; they?re augmented with reverb
calculated to enhance the feeling of three dimensions.
EAX 2.0
WHAT?S NEW IN EAX 2.0
Version 2.0 of EAX adds significant enhancements to version 1.0. These
enhancements provide much more detail to the aural world perceived by the
listener. They also give programmers more power for sound design by controlling
specific environmental audio effects.
More Environmental Reverberation Control
EAX 2.0 offers a complete set of reverberation parameters that allow you to
control the intensity and delay of reflections, to continuously adjust the
environment size, and to set the direct path and reverberation filters for each sound
source. These direct controls allow dedicated sound designers to tweak
environmental reverberation to get precisely the aural surroundings they desire.
EAX can also make your programming work easier by automatically taking care
of these parameters for you.
Distance Effects
To help provide a better perception of listener-to-sound-source distance, EAX 2.0
provides several different modes of automatic distance-effects management. They
manage attenuation and filtering effects that change according to the distance
between the listener and a sound source. The distance effects include:
n A method of simulating the natural statistical behavior of reverberation in
enclosed spaces
n A reverberation rolloff factor that allows you to customize or modify the
statistical reverberation model
n An adjustable air absorption model that filters out high frequencies with
increasing distance. (You can use this to simulate moisture in the air such
as high humidity or fog.)
6 The Environmental Audio Extensions
Occlusion and Obstruction Effects
EAX 2.0 introduces occlusion and obstruction properties that provide aural cues
about objects and walls that come between sound sources and the listener.
Occlusion occurs when a wall that separates two environments comes between
source and listener. There?s no open-air sound path for sound to go from source
to listener, so the sound source is completely muffled because it?s transmitted
through the wall. EAX occlusion properties provide parameters that adjust wall
transmission characteristics to simulate different wall materials and thickness.
You can, for example, use occlusion properties to make a voice or noise sound
very realistically as if it were coming from behind a door or from outside the
listener?s house.
Obstruction occurs when source and listener are in the same room but there?s an
object directly between them. There?s no direct sound path from source to
listener, but the reverberation comes to the listener unaffected. The result is
altered direct-path sound with unaltered reverberation. EAX obstruction
properties can simulate sound diffraction around the obstacle or sound
transmission through the obstacle, which provide rich aural cues about the nature
of the obstruction. You can, for example, use obstruction properties to make a
voice sound as if it were coming through a thin curtain or from behind a large
pillar.
Source Directivity
DirectSound and OpenAL already offer control of source directivity, where a
sound source is stronger in one direction than in all others?like a trumpet, for
example, that?s strongest in the direction of the bell and attenuated to the sides and
behind the bell. DirectSound and OpenAL set the directivity across all frequencies
equally, which usually is not the case in the real world.
EAX makes source directivity sound much more natural by allowing you to make
sound sources more directive at high frequencies than at low frequencies. This
makes the sound of directional sources such as a voice, a loudspeaker, or a horn,
sound much more realistic as the listener moves around the source?or as the
source rotates or flies by the listener.
If you still think EAX is only reverb, I have nothing more convincing than this, and I give up.
EDIT: I hate Creative with a passion, but nothing better currently exists for my purposes. Please don't mistake this for love.
Agree with you there, but this discussion(A3D vs EAX) is more of an issue of what existed 3-4 years ago and not what exists today.
Someone should fire the driver team and managers and get people from a real company. I could write better drivers... Thank god for tbsc
Adul
Elite Member
well there is always via who has a rather nice audio chip on the market. My brother just picked up an M-Audio revolution. It kicks the crap out of anything I have heard when it comes to music and movies.
GoodRevrnd
Diamond Member
- Dec 27, 2001
- 6,801
- 581
- 126
The M-Audio is based on a VIA chip? I didn't know that. However, I will vouch that yes that card is amazing for what you stated... but I don't think it is especially strong for positioning purposes in gaming.
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